What are Ginko Bonds worth? - 2

It would only vanish if he were allowed to purchase the bonds back for pennies on the Linden. As long as they hold it, he has to pay interest or cancel the debt. For their sake, I hope that he does come up with a way to pay the debt within the next 2 years.

There are two factors that constitute face value: (a) an exchange rate and (b) a given time.

Refer to the question I asked you about awhile ago:

/327/d6/209550/3.html#post1672561

There was some "maturity date" being said when it doesn't actually exist at all. That is simply seen in the name GPB as "perpetual." The given time is infinite.

Perpetual means infinite.

If someone tells you the face value of a perpetual bond is L$1, that someone is actually telling you that in some infinite time it will be worth L$1. Anotherwords, it is a completely bogus statement because you'll never see the market value for a point at infinite time.



NP is right there because you'll have to wait inifinite time ("a whole lot of time" until the market value reaches L$1 in order to get it to be worth a L$1 sell per bond. If you sell before then, the worth of the bond is less than L$1.

What wasn't said there is that you never have to sell the bonds in order for it to be worth L$1. In that case, market value never applies because there is no trade. For example, they could be cancelled within infinite time.

No crap, Dzonatas, as if we all haven't expounded on that point already. No one has said that there is a certain maturity date. You won a point that no one was arguing, feel better now??

The horse is pounded to glue already. We KNOW it's perpetual. But at the same time, *it doesn't matter*, because with THESE bonds, there is a value certain attached to them - and it is 1L/bond, whether they are called, cancelled, or held indefinitely, this is the amount that is going to be paid because Nick showed himself to be quite the shyster and isn't allowed to purchase them for anything less.

And if/when they are cancelled, called, or whatever by Nick, they will be at a prescribed certain value of 1L/bond. Each of those bonds is worth 1L to *Nick*. That is the debt. Whether he pays it now or never, it doesn't change. What Joe Blow buys the bond for from a Ginko victim is immaterial to Nick. It matters to Joe Blow, if he wants to hold on to it or look for market arbitrage.

Stop trying to compare it to a RL perpetual bond.

No, Nick Supposedly will buy them back at the 1$L rate Within 1 or 2 years.




1L is the Ginko defined "Face Value" of the bond - You inability to accept their definition of face value nonwithstanding.

Me? If thats what they call face value, fine. Im able to accept the Number printed on the bond is not the market price without some eternal conflict. I dont see why you cant.

The whole 1$L is entirely the point. Becuase Ginko defines that as the Face value of the bond and thus WSE wont let him buy them back on the market for less.

It actually fits together rather logically.

Bit of Irony here -

Since the Market price is a touch under a dime:

I think it's really more accurate to say that it's already vanished, the crime already committed. Simply put, the depositors suffered a 75% loss at the time of conversion--they got something valued in the market at only L$0.25 for each L$1 they had deposited. And the depositors are getting paid dividends at only 1/4 of the rate the original bondholders are, for the same amount invested. And if GPBs are retired at L$1, those original bondholders will get a substantial risk reward, whereas the depositors would only get back their original investment--which the current market price reveals is not nearly adequate return for the risk.

Dzonatas,

Id really suggest you read all of Nicholas Portocarrero's Posts there are only 237 and nearly every single of one of them has something to do with Ginko.




You can get Ginko's explaination the issue thus rather quickly.


Now I think Ginko is a Ponzi scheme, a fraud, and a scam - but somehow I can grasp what they are Trying to say.

He can't buy them back unless they reach a L$1 market value. He has the option to cancel them, however.



If he cancels (or calls) them and pays L$1 each, that is an out of market transaction. That, out of market context, is a different face value than the face value of being able to buy them on the market. The actual numeric value may be the same, but it is a different face.

QED

The face value as defined by Ginko is 1L.

This is being enforced as much as it can be by WSE.

The market value isnt 1L.

There is no conflict in definitions.

You are hung up on this. I suggest ESL.

This was one of my first concerns. It shows that GPB will never in the short time hit L$1 on the market as it floats right now.

It appears by activity it is practical to hit 50 cents, but not often righ t now.

By that we could say in 50 months it is possible to fully liquidate the assets. That being 50 cents gained on each GPB from interest over 50 months plus a market trade at 50 cents to equal %100 value.

If you consider this option, then you will see it would be wise to adjust the "buy back ban" for every interest/dividend payment made. Anotherwords, if NP makes the next payment (3 cents for each bond), the L$1 limit falls to L$0.97 for him.

Fair?

NO LOL not fair.

the 3% is the interest he owes for Still holding peoples money. He decided the Interest rate.

The Interest is NOT part of him paying people back.

At ALL.

Dont forget Ginko has supposedly invested all this money people have given them.

As I have said, he screwed-up or lied about it.



As a result of his screw-up or lie, WSE linked Ginko's "face value" to market value with a buy back ban set to below L$1.

Do we need to pound on this again?

The Bonds are IOUs - I OWE YOU - in other words Nick said he will someday, somehow pay them back. Thus the Face value of 1L ... DUH

Of course WSE required the buy back at 1$ its a dam IOU.

You are being too fancy with this perpetual bonds business - the reality is FAR simpler.

The more I talk about this here the more it has convinced me that I should make my own damn perpetual bonds. People say it is simple to understand and well, the feedback is... convincing!

I gotta go dry my feet off...

Seriously -

ESL

That said from someone who says they don't have a crusade against me.

"ESL"... pfsh... I highly suggest you take a break from the"dam" internet. Look at how many posts you have made. I wonder how many of those is wasted time to belittle or crusade against others. Tsk tsk lol

Im not crusading against you -

You are just wrong.

Thats all.

Simpler, and a lot easier on Ginko than if GPBs were RL perpetual bonds. As it is, WSE is letting Ginko retire the debt at only L$1 per bond, any time it wants. RL perpetual bonds have ten years or longer before the first call date.

On the other hand, RL perpetual bonds don't trade at 10% of the call price so, really, this is all uncharted waters.

At this point, I think we're just looking for the most compelling role play in some bizarre ad lib combination of Gordon Gekko's Wall Street, Glengarry GlenRoss, and Brazil (the Terry Gilliam movie, not the South American country).

This is actually unchartered waters in a lot of ways.

RL ponzi operators go to jail.

Were getting to see what happens when they collapse and how the spin gets done after.

That is why I am convinced perpetual bonds are a wonderful tool.

One can simply explain the terminology flat out and others say they are wrong. With that bias, I don't think even a legal dictionary would convince the naysayers. This whole ponzi envelope has people crusading againsts anybody that doesn't follow their peer pressure to yell ponzi... bashing... and anybody who doesn't yell ponzi is "wrong."

lol

NP has it made as this "ponzi"-sayer group actually protects him.

No he can't. Because you say it is his bond and his defintions of face value and whatever are are true, and he said it is not a ponzi, so "you are just wrong."

ROFL

This is Merry Go Round logic.

Here - Ill break it down for you.

1) He doesnt get to decide wether Ginko Was a Ponzi or not

2) he does get to decide on the Face Value of his bonds. He printed the nearly worthless things.

Weren't you the one talking about hidden functionality in the first thread? What makes you think WSE can't code it so that out of market transactions can take place? In the real world you can transfer a certificate or bond physically if you have it in hand. Although WSE is a clearinghouse of sorts, it would be beneficial to allow greater options for dealmaking if it permitted out of market transactions to occur and 1-1 trades to occur at set prices between specific parties, if it doesn't already. (Does it?)

If he waits for the market to reach 1L he never will cancel the debt because it will never get there short of something highly unusual occurring.

Only modern RL perpetual bonds have been more stricter on standard terms, like the greater than ten years call date. What GPB is now is no different from more historic perpetual bonds except one option. That option is the ability to convert perpetual bonds into regular bonds with maturity dates.

I wonder if WSE will support regular maturable bonds. WSE has said from the start it has had such likewise loan motivation for SL properties.

I am worried more about the motive than the fact that some functionality exists. The bank run and the gambling ban is still suspicious on the influence here.



Already done.



Usually, official printed company paper gets a social security number embedded on the note. It is not easy to just hand over such printed paper. International exchanges will have to work differently.



Thanks for pounding that point again. There is, however, the chance for a partial liquidation to occur. That will no doubt have an upward force on the market but questionable if it reaches L$1 still.