What are Ginko Bonds worth? - 2

There should be some point at which he may intervene. If it means losing his 35% or so stake in Hope Capital, and other stocks, then I think he will do something about it.

And if anyone's wondering who Investor A originally was, roughly 87% of the original GPB bond issue was held by Ginko associates.

WSE shows only the top 5 major shareholders.

At the moment you'd need to own over 2.85m bonds to show up or 1.45% of the entire issue.

As far as I can see there hasn't been any major change in the top 5 slots in the last few weeks.

Seriously as much as you, Cristalle, and Colette are all the same person. We probably all just alts of NP arguing with our multple personalities.

any of these the same person?

It occurs to me that the best way for Nick to be able to Inspire consumer confidence OR to buy up bonds under the market rate is have an Alt who appears to be a big time investor and supporter of Ginko.

You are wrong, completely because you are agreeing with what I have said, and that would be against your crusade against me on here.

That is how perpetual bonds work, it is a "I don't owe you, but here is the dividends/interest to pay back what I owe anyway."

I have no crusade against you -

I just dont think you are capable of understanding my posts for whatever reason. Considering your unusual name I figure its a language thing.

the 100 Months worth of Interest Equals the same amount as the original principle is a pretty simple mathmatical calculation.

However its a LOSS if It isnt accompanied By being able to redeem the bond for the 1L value or higher at some point.

If the bonds are not repurchased,

Best case You "break even" in 8.4 years if Interest payments are made. But there is an opportunity cost associated with your money being tied up. SO you really dont break even.

I'm baffled how even to parse this. A bond is a debt instrument--the whole point of issuing bonds is to borrow money. A perpetual bond is an obligation to pay interest on that debt forever, or until the bond is called (or, in Ginko-speak, canceled with a "liquidation dividend" at some premium over the bonds issued price (but not in the case of Ginko bank depositors, who can hope to recover only their deposit amounts in the unlikely event that GPBs were ever called) at a date 10 years or so after issuance.

Of course, the bond retains exactly the same value in terms not adjusted for inflation, so in RL, the payments and even the principle will become of negligible worth after many years of compounded inflation. In SL on the other hand, it's just possible that the L$ could appreciate in real terms, which would make servicing the GPB debt ever more burdensome--and the bonds ever more valuable over time in such a scenario.

Or, well, it could, were there any enforcement that ensured GPBs would behave like RL perpetual bonds, even when that proves inconvenient for the debtor.

I just get fascinated by people who get stuck on a detail and will in fact not let go with it and use the method of attempting to bash it into people's heads despite the fact there is information just sitting aroudn that say otherwise.

Anyhow the issue of ginko and is so called bonds truly its been beaten to death. This is now a cyclical discussion that will never end with the same beginning and the same ending which makes it pretty pointless to take part in after a certain period of time. People will believe or think what they think and that's just the end of it. Anyone who lost money in this thing knows what happened and hopefully wont make the same mistake twice although I have seen ruminations in the previous thread now locked that say other wise.

If gambling appeals to you and you want to gamble then feel free just remember the odds are fixed in favour of the person who invented this debt dumping bond and its his decision as to whether he will try to keep up his sherade or eventually just let it die. I thinkh e may pay a few people back what he owes them without interest, but the bond as a bond its not going to happen this is pretty much a given. No one will actualy earn any interest although there is a rate of interest attached to this bond the interest rate from what i see is 0%. So he may pay enough people back to make it look like he is in fact "rock solid" and start over again. The fact of the matter is that as a player base from reading these threads and the discussion over this scam we are as a group a true bunch of suckers. People who pull this stick around as long as possible because setting things up like this takes a lot of time. Why should he go anywhere he has a community base willing to participate in this thing voluntarily and a vocal part of the community who will believe just about anything he says and even emblish it and make it look more rosey for hm

That means what happened is irrelevant because its already been forgotten.


So the cycle may repeat and more people will loose moremoney but no one will ever be paid one cent of interest and some may in fact get paid back to make it look good.


I long ago grew tired of the actualy discussion of "ginko the bank that's not a bank" and its conversion of its depositors funds to these bonds and calling these things bonds at all.

But if that makes some peopel happy then so be it. Banks dont normally take peoples money without them going to the bank and actually arranging such an investment. They also dont normally charge you 4 times what the bond is worth and tell you that you will gather interest on it and then turn around and tell you they will only pay back the principle. They dont hold money hostage and walk away and close their websites or bank locations and suddenly say our bank is now a place where we borrow alll your money and print you junk bonds.

Again if ths can't be seen then there is no hope for this community as a group in general he found a very lucrative gruop of suckers lol

People generally do not accept a strict technical meaning of words, and I put you in that general group.

You look at face value to mean the value printed on hard cash. That value does not change once printed. That is not how face value works with perpetual bonds. The closest thing to what you mean by face value is the cancellation value.

NP either accidently screwed up the words or lied about "face value," in his announcement, Aug 9: "Customers will receive one bond with a face value of L$1 for every L$1 they have deposited in Ginko Financial."

- https://www.wselive.com/research/announcement_detail/2185

Technically, he says here that he'll give depositors one bond for every L$1 deposited. That is not what happened. What depositers got was one bond for each L$1 deposited with a cancellation amount of L$1 and fixed dividend/interest rate based on L$1 all for the price of ~L$0.25 each.

That point seems to get overlooked/ignored/distracted due to the argument about face value.



The depositors lost the liquidity of the assests.

There is no redemption value on perpetuities. It is infinite payments of interest/dividends until either cancelled or deflated. Given that NP fixed the interest/dividend basis to L$1, there is no need for him to cancel them if he can manage the payments. Normally, one would cancel them with the price is too high because that would mean high interest payments, or they become so deflated that it is easy to wipe out the entire debt at a "deep discount."

You have proven nothing to anyone but yourself. the Face value definition im using is Nick P's face value definition. I used that becuase its his damn bond.

Ive already gone over all these things, I am certain Im closer to the reality of the situation than you are.

Id be curious how many people agree with you. They arent posting here.

The quote is based on the more famous innovations of certain governments in the past to use this kind of debt instrument.

Which government is that supposedly?

Coconuts, anyone?

...I've got a fresh supply.

You keep de-linking the actual debt from the bond and substituting in the trading value. It is not "I don't owe you" - it is a DEBT security. It is, as Nick said, "I'll do my best to try to pay you back" but on no set timetable. So if one waits long enough, they can recover the uninflated principal but they never recover 100% of the whole value unless some other external force increases the value of the bond.

But since NICK is the one saying that he will pay based on the 1L "face value" it doesn't really matter right now what the f**k anyone wants to call it - nominal value, face value, par value, cancellation value, etc. He plans to pay 3% of the DEBT every quarter ad infinitum until he cancels the debt. Supposedly. Nick is not basing the interest payment on the market value of the bonds - if he was, he'd be in far better shape to actually make the payment since confidence in his ability to pay the actual debt is so low. This is something you have to accept. He's not "making a mistake" - he has a debt, and it is denominated in 1L increments, and that is represented by each bond. Get over the semantics. He's paying it how HE wants to pay it. Your version would only inflate the value of the bond, since it would be easier for him to make the interest payment.

Right, because this ISN'T RL and there is no interest system for Nick to game. As far as **these** so-called bonds are concerned, there IS a redemption value. And as I said yesterday, we know that it is human nature that he will not actually cancel the debt. Especially if he can make the dividend payments. We are not disagreeing, but in your mind it's something bigger than it really is.

Right,

This is exactly why I was sticking to Nick's definition of face value - Becuase if you drop the 1L$ promise from the bond, you are basically saying the debt doesnt exist.

He took people's money. He made promisses based on their money. He paid some insane interest rate for a while, until he coudlnt swing it anymore. Then he sealed them off from getting their money back directly, and issued all these IOUs.

The Interest as you correctly point out isnt Ginko Paying people back. The Interest is becuase he is still holding their dam money.

He doesnt pay them back until he buys the bond.

Meh not at all.

The rest of your post is ok.

The only real de-linking that would happen is if one sells their bonds.

In wrangling with definitions, this is precisely what you were doing - you keep carping that if these bonds were like rl perpetual bonds, the pricing and value would be different somehow because to you, "face value" = market value, and market value is substantially lower than the debt. If we used your definition of face value and today was the dividend payment day, Nick would only pay less than three tenths of a percent of the debt. Which is a sucky rate, but something he could probably manage.

This clearly points out how you have completely mistaken what I did say and tried to put words in my mouth for what I didn't say. If I did say something like that, it would be a stupid thing to say but not as much as those words I didn't say.

Face value simply means an exchange rate at a given time.

Exchange rate could be the event that happens when you exchange coins, trades stocks and bonds, or trade any other form of currency. Those rates are either static or dynamic.

So where does that NOT equal market value, as applied here? Are you saying that the "face value" is static at .26? If it's fluid and depends on the price at the time of dividend payment, is that not market value? What the hell ARE you saying? Regardless of what you think, Nick is paying it as I already described above.

you guys are going to go nuts you know trying to make someone who doesn't want to understand , understand ......

I saw an offer for coconuts a couple pages back maybe that was a hint lol

Not in the case of these Ginko Bonds.




QED

Yeah, this is kind of the smoking gun. Original issue GPBs that were sold by Ginko for L$25 indeed traded at about L$25 before the split. But, on August 1st, Ginko Guy represented that subsequent offers of the bonds would be for L$100 (as if there could be any takers at that price), on August 6th split them 1:100, and then on August 9th converted the bank deposits at 1 GPB for each L$1 in deposits--as if that L$100 price had ever been established in the market.

It was simply theft: 75% of Ginko Financials' obligations to depositors just evaporated at that point. For every L$1 in deposits, they got something that was sold and traded for L$0.25. And then GPB's market price declined as the SL financial community recognized that Ginko Guy was just a simple liar and a crook.