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A poll for the Shoppers out there - Transfer or no transfer?

Ricardo Harris
Registered User
Join date: 1 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,944
01-20-2008 17:15
From: Wildefire Walcott
I also hate no-mod wearable items because you can't resize them.


BINGO!



Exactly.
Jonnyfx Pontchartrain
Registered User
Join date: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 17
01-20-2008 17:43
From: Ricardo Harris
BINGO!



Exactly.



So you want Mod AND Transfer rights... but what if you make a mistake while modding and render the item useless? Now you need a copy.... but if they give you Copy and Transfer rights then there's nothing to prevent you from selling (or giving away) as many copies of their work as you want.

So builders generally have to choose either copy or trans, if they give both they might as well just give everything away. And for most things sold in SL, the Copy permission is much more useful then Transfer.

These people finding malicious reasons behind people's permission choices are just silly.

And no, I didn't vote for the same reason other's have mentioned, I didn't like either of the choices given.
Maggie McArdle
FIOS hates puppies
Join date: 8 May 2006
Posts: 2,855
Depends....
01-20-2008 18:30
Buildings/Houses: Copy/Mod/ No trans: i cannot tell you how many times i have messed up houses just trying to place them correctly. being able to have a copiable/modable version of a house i love and spent a lot of lindens on is a Slifesaver.

Clothing: depends on what style of clothing: if its of a style thats easily done and can be whipped out in no time i say no copy/no mod/trans, if the work is highly detailed, and takes a lot of the content creators time, then no copy/no mod/no transfer. in certain cases, i would make them mod as no two avas are shaped the same.

with the influx of new players being taught basically how to steal content though, i would not blame any content creator if they made all their items non trans copiable nor modable. it wont stop a determined thief, but it will slow them down a bit. watermarking seems the way to go as well.
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Susie Boffin
Certified Nutcase
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,151
01-20-2008 19:43
I don't buy anything that is no mod regardless of what it is. I could care less about transfer permissions.
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Lear Cale
wordy bugger
Join date: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 3,569
01-20-2008 20:49
From: Cristalle Karami
Necropost alert!!

It's a checkbox, not making a whole other object. It's not that much of a hassle.


No, it's more than that, as you'd know if you were a scripter or made objects that contain objects, or other complex things. If you think setting the outermost checkbox protects all your content, you may be in for a rude surprise.

And at the very least (for simple, unscripted objects), it's one checkbox per sale item, and restocking that item per vendor in each sales venue.

It's space and an extra prim in your shop, or a more complicated vendor.

What's a necropost?
Rhaorth Antonelli
Registered User
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 7,425
01-20-2008 20:50
can not make clothing no mod/no trans/ and no copy

it has to be either copy or trans
mod is optional

(prim items can be set this way if they have a script or something inside that is no transfer, and the parent prim is no copy no mod)
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Lear Cale
wordy bugger
Join date: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 3,569
01-20-2008 20:52
From: Maggie McArdle
no copy/no mod/no transfer

Not possible. If you click no-trans, then it's copiable.
Rhaorth Antonelli
Registered User
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 7,425
01-20-2008 20:52
From: Lear Cale

It's space and an extra prim in your shop


that is why I do not sell my clothes with copy enabled, because it would involve another prim for each item (doubling my prim count for items being sold) OR setting up a vendor, that has all the items in it with the other set of permissions, that folks would then have to cycle through to find the item

if someone wants a mod/copy no xfer item from me, all they have to do is buy the item, contact me, send me the item, and I send them back the item with the changed permissions.

not hard to do
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Lear Cale
wordy bugger
Join date: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 3,569
01-20-2008 20:55
From: Ricardo Harris
Are you kidding? Shop owners get heart attacks if they know you're selling anything you've purchased from them as they actually think what they sold you still belongs to them. As unbelievable and idiotic, moronic and stupid as this seems it's all too true. Hence, messages in shops warning you not to sell their stuff after you've paid for it as well as no transfer, no mod, no copy items.


Too bad for them. If they don't want me to sell it, then they should make it no-xfer. Of course, then I can copy it. If they don't want me to copy it, then they should make it no-copy, and then I can sell it. If they don't like those two options, they should get a life.

(Of course, there are businesses where they have to sell things copy/xfer, like textures, where license agreements are necessary. But for ordinary, end-user merchandise, sorry charlie, once you sell it you no longer own it.)
Lear Cale
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Join date: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 3,569
01-20-2008 20:58
From: Rhaorth Antonelli
that is why I do not sell my clothes with copy enabled, because it would involve another prim for each item (doubling my prim count for items being sold) OR setting up a vendor, that has all the items in it with the other set of permissions, that folks would then have to cycle through to find the item

if someone wants a mod/copy no xfer item from me, all they have to do is buy the item, contact me, send me the item, and I send them back the item with the changed permissions.

not hard to do


/me waves to lovely Rhaorth.

Good idea, Rhaorth. :) I sell mine copiable (so they can make outfit folders), so I can't do that. But that's a nice advantage to selling xfer/no-copy.
Rhaorth Antonelli
Registered User
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 7,425
01-20-2008 21:02
hi lear, hope you are doing well

I thought about the no transfer option, but if someone wanted to buy a no copy version I would not have the same options as I do, doing it this way hehe

(I do need to put a sign at the store though, explaining to ppl that I am willing to do that, as well as alternate clothing layers if someone wants them)

I have debated removing the older stuff that doesn't sell, but if I did the store would look empty, and lo and behold that would be when someone would want it LOL

(yes there is a lot of my stuff that has not sold, seems folks just like slutwear)

scanty, shiny, short, ya know the stuff I mean

mine is not like that LOL
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Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 7,138
01-20-2008 21:33
What if one sold each item boxed with one copiable and one transferable instance inside? Or would this just so confuse the average customer that it would do more harm than good?

I'd been debating trying this with some stuff myself, just to see what happens. Furniture, most likely, as a first candidate.

I can see that for some items (notably, clothing and attachments) where one copy is really all anyone could ever need, this could prevent a sale of the item. But for other items, it seems like it could make for a kind of "viral marketing": the buyer gives a friend that one transferable instance of a product they admired; the friend goes to your shop to buy other items (or even to buy a copiable instance of the item that was just transfered to them), and then they have more transferable instances with which to "infect" others.

This would solve the "extra prim" and stocking logistics problem--but Lear is very right: it is a big deal to give complex objects properly-functioning permissions, and at least as hard to give them a different set of properly-functioning permissions. And to do it all over again with each update.
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Dina Vanalten
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Join date: 24 Dec 2006
Posts: 268
01-20-2008 21:40
I don't buy things that are no mod.

Don't care if they are copy or transfer or not, but I want to be able to change them if I need to. The script can be no mod.

I wonder why the poll doesn't ask about modify?
Ricardo Harris
Registered User
Join date: 1 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,944
01-20-2008 21:42
From: Lear Cale
Too bad for them. If they don't want me to sell it, then they should make it no-xfer. Of course, then I can copy it. If they don't want me to copy it, then they should make it no-copy, and then I can sell it. If they don't like those two options, they should get a life.

(Of course, there are businesses where they have to sell things copy/xfer, like textures, where license agreements are necessary. But for ordinary, end-user merchandise, sorry charlie, once you sell it you no longer own it.)


I know this and you know this but they refuse to acknowledge it. Why you think they say since their name is on it they don't want anyone to change it? They actually believe in their minds their name really means anything to the consumer. No one cares who made what. All items look just like the next one, there's no difference nor do people care who made it long as they have it to use.

Ego's can be very dangerous. And you find some of the biggest among certain builders.
Ricardo Harris
Registered User
Join date: 1 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,944
01-20-2008 21:46
From: Dina Vanalten
I don't buy things that are no mod.

Don't care if they are copy or transfer or not, but I want to be able to change them if I need to. The script can be no mod.

I wonder why the poll doesn't ask about modify?



More and more people are coming out with this same thought and rightly so. They then complain about their continual business lost as we can see in these forums all the time. Sooner or later they may learn yet....or not. They're the ones who want to sell.
Ricardo Harris
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Join date: 1 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,944
01-20-2008 21:54
From: Jonnyfx Pontchartrain
So you want Mod AND Transfer rights... but what if you make a mistake while modding and render the item useless? Now you need a copy.... but if they give you Copy and Transfer rights then there's nothing to prevent you from selling (or giving away) as many copies of their work as you want.

So builders generally have to choose either copy or trans, if they give both they might as well just give everything away. And for most things sold in SL, the Copy permission is much more useful then Transfer.

These people finding malicious reasons behind people's permission choices are just silly.

And no, I didn't vote for the same reason other's have mentioned, I didn't like either of the choices given.


Notice I never said anything about transfer. If anything I stated transfer is nothing. And how can I render clothes useless by shortening the sleeves when they come too long or when I rather use them short? Same with pants, when I want them looser then they usually come since most come too tight as it is.

With furniture at times only to make a slight ajustment in size to fit where I want it to set it. And if by chance I rendered anything useless which hasn't happened in almost 2 yrs I'll go buy another if I still want it whatever it may be.

Sure beats buying non-mod stuff you can't use once you rezz it as it's happened so many times before. But not anymore as I'm no longer buying non mod anything.
Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 7,138
01-20-2008 23:05
From: Ricardo Harris
Are you kidding? Shop owners get heart attacks if they know you're selling anything you've purchased from them as they actually think what they sold you still belongs to them. As unbelievable and idiotic, moronic and stupid as this seems it's all too true. Hence, messages in shops warning you not to sell their stuff after you've paid for it as well as no transfer, no mod, no copy items.
Evidently I don't get out enough: other than textures and certain animations sold specifically for furniture makers, I don't think I've ever encountered a warning not to resell objects sold to me with transfer permissions. Does this happen for other products, too?
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Kitty Barnett
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Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
01-21-2008 02:04
From: Jonnyfx Pontchartrain
So you want Mod AND Transfer rights... but what if you make a mistake while modding and render the item useless?
For clothing, the only thing you could do to make the item useless is to drop another texture on it (very unlikely to happen by accident).

You could horribly mess up a prim attachment, but anyone who survived the newbie stage should have the skill to modify something without breaking it beyond what they can repair themselves.

Some sellers will also include two NC/T copies of a prim attachment to have a middle ground between NC/T and C/NT. Others don't mind dealing with their customers and will happily drop you either a replacement, or a backup copy on demand. Things like a prim skirt or a little prim bow are pretty useless without the rest of the outfit.

From the customer's side of things, there's really no compelling reason for mod to only be associated with C/NT and not NC/T.

On the seller's side there seem to be three common reasons to not grant mod:
- their vision is absolute, they never make mistakes, being able to modify compromises their "artistic vision"
- not wanting to deal with customers asking for a replacement (which can still happen even if it's copy) because there's no profit in customer service
- they (mistakingly) believe that not granting modify somehow keeps the item from being able to get "ripped"/copied

From: Qie Niangao
Evidently I don't get out enough: other than textures and certain animations sold specifically for furniture makers, I don't think I've ever encountered a warning not to resell objects sold to me with transfer permissions. Does this happen for other products, too?
I think it's mostly expressed on the forums, most recently in the other transfer thread: "You don't have to compete against yard sales" and "You loose a sale (if someone transfers what they no longer need)" (paraphrased from memory, not exact quotes).
Chav Paderborn
in ur sl
Join date: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 192
01-21-2008 06:32
I sell things copy/mod/notrans cos that's what I like to buy. I like giving people the most perms possible, and mod/no-copy means they could mess up their only one. Last time I sold something transfer I got IM'd about someone reselling it second-hand. Which doesn't bother me, but I can't quite face getting more IMs about someone selling *one copy* of a Transfer item. Some people get upset about that, I realise, but if it's only the one then what's the big problem?
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Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 7,138
01-21-2008 07:15
From: Chav Paderborn
I sell things copy/mod/notrans cos that's what I like to buy. I like giving people the most perms possible, and mod/no-copy means they could mess up their only one. Last time I sold something transfer I got IM'd about someone reselling it second-hand. Which doesn't bother me, but I can't quite face getting more IMs about someone selling *one copy* of a Transfer item. Some people get upset about that, I realise, but if it's only the one then what's the big problem?
That reminds me, speaking of IMs: one down-side of Transfer for complex things is that, every time it transfers, the creator gets a new user to hand-hold through the process of learning to use the thing (or, god forbid, run an updater on it); this is less fun when the user was never a customer. (It's not so much about the money because the seller can factor this "perpetual customer service" cost into the pricing--they just have to remember to do that. The problem is that the secondhand user has no affect invested in the creator, since they didn't buy from him in the first place.)
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Maggie McArdle
FIOS hates puppies
Join date: 8 May 2006
Posts: 2,855
01-21-2008 08:54
regarding my post on have items no copy/no mod/no trans.....isn't there a jira on the books regarding it? i do know that its not possible to do all three, but, as i stated in my post, i would not blame content creators for making their items that way.
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There's, uh, probably a lot of things you didn't know about lindens. Another, another interesting, uh, lindenism, uh, there are only three jobs available to a linden. The first is making shoes at night while, you know, while the old cobbler sleeps.You can bake cookies in a tree. But the third job, some call it, uh, "the show" or "the big dance," it's the profession that every linden aspires to.
Graphicguru Gustav
Accepts head scritchings!
Join date: 5 Oct 2007
Posts: 775
01-21-2008 09:22
From: New Wind
I never buy no mod things but anyway if you let transfer then dont let copy as they will ressel or if you put copy then dont let transfer ;)
I have to agree... If I buy an item that doesn’t fit right, I like to modify it to make it fit, or correctly positioned it on my avi. But you DO need to protect yourself from thieves... If someone wants to give it away to a friend as a gift, you can set up a 'give as gift' option directly from your store, and still keep your no transfer setting on the item intact. Otherwise, most people should understand, and bring their friend along and hand them the cash to buy it themselves in store...I know it blows the whole gift surprise thing out the window for the one receiving the gift, but it will drastically reduce the amount of stolen or re-sold stuff out there in SL.
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Dagmar Heideman
Bokko Dancer
Join date: 2 Feb 2007
Posts: 989
01-21-2008 09:45
Depends on the item. For clothing and any attachments I might wear I prefer copy/no transfer so I can copy them into complete outfit folders making a quick change in outifts including clothing, jewelry, skins, hair primshoes etc. very fast and easy to do using some of the same items in multiple outfits. For items which are mod I also prefer copy in case you mess up making a modification so you can do it on a copy instead of the original. Otherwise I don't really care either way other than to say if it is not copiable I see no reason why it should not be transferrable.
3Ring Binder
always smile
Join date: 8 Mar 2007
Posts: 15,028
01-21-2008 09:52
the only thing i've ever really needed to modify was wearable items like belts and skirts. i can't imagine why someone would expect anything else to be modifiable. shoes are a seperate category. some i bought just won't fit no matter what size foot i have, so i just won't ever buy from that store again. most shoes do not need to be modifiable.

re: transfer/copy..... i buy both. if it's non-transferrable/copy, i enjoy it for what it is and don't worry about losing. if it's no copy (like a pet), i feel nervous rezzing it because i have lost things to the SL afterlife several times, and there is no recovering it, so in general i prefer copy/no transfer.

i have bought transferrable items just to sell them at yard sales, as income. in retrospect, that was probably not cool, so i don't do that anymore (which is probably a whole new thread unto itself). but when you make things transferrable, it's the risk you take (ie: i didn't come up with this idea all by myself. i saw it being done, was told how to do it, and did it. it's a big business in SL).

now, i only sell my own creations at yard sales. some are transferrable, some not.
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Ricardo Harris
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Join date: 1 Apr 2006
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01-21-2008 10:52
From: 3Ring Binder
the only thing i've ever really needed to modify was wearable items like belts and skirts. i can't imagine why someone would expect anything else to be modifiable. shoes are a seperate category. some i bought just won't fit no matter what size foot i have, so i just won't ever buy from that store again. most shoes do not need to be modifiable.

Male shoes are the worse made items in all the clothing made. You definitely need mod here and even then at times it does no good. I've brought and then have deleted more pair of shoes, sneakers and boots then I want to remember due to the clown size shoes or tiny, tiny ones offered all the time in sl.

As far as whey anyone would want anything mod in sl, you haven't been reading, 3Ring.
Pants coming in too tight Shirt, sweaters with sleeves too long where they're halfway down your hands. Items like furniture too small or too large that won't fit where you want them set.
Remember, that not everyone knows how to make good sized clothing or items. And there are a lot of badly made items to begin with and having the right to mod you can adjust them many times.

You gamble each time you buy something non mod as if there's something wrong you can't do anything to fix it most of the times.

re: transfer/copy..... i buy both. if it's non-transferrable/copy, i enjoy it for what it is and don't worry about losing. if it's no copy (like a pet), i feel nervous rezzing it because i have lost things to the SL afterlife several times, and there is no recovering it, so in general i prefer copy/no transfer.

Transfer for me is nothing. Copy is ok when buying plants, trees and different pcs of furniture or in or out the home. Copy for clothes in needless I think.

i have bought transferrable items just to sell them at yard sales, as income.


If you like doing this it's ok I guess but not everyone does.
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