Closed for Maintenance or time for a major protest?

If you're gonna sound all righteous, read the whole billing agreement. Sure, we haven't hit 24 hours yet... but...

Since you decided to quote something I said, I guess I ought to respond.

You are familiar with what the issue is, yes?

The problem is with "Level 3", an internet hosting company. From their website...

Level 3 counts among its customers:

19 of the world’s top 20 telecom companies
9 of the 10 largest telecom carriers in Europe
9 of the top 10 U.S. Internet Service Providers (ISPs)
9 of the top 10 U.S. cable companies
4 of the top 5 telecom companies in Asia
Top 5 U.S. Wireless Service Providers

Additionally, "Since our founding in 1998, Level 3® has been focused on delivering premier services over one of the world’s most advanced, IP-optimized networks. Level 3 owns and maintains over 48,000 intercity route miles."

One of the world's most advanced networks.

Quite how do you expect an equivalent to be on 'standby'? The cost of having an equivalent, but redundant, service would be astronomical, all passed on to us, the end user.

Given the rarity of these outages... and the fact that not just SL is down but as the blog says, various other very high profile corporations, I think, to be honest, we just have to deal with it for a little while.

The world is not ending just because SL is down. Trust me on this one.

well it's easy to see something serious was going on all week with sl and a lot of people were losing money and objects..
i'm sure it is pretty major for them to shut down like this..

and informing us of what is going on would only make people more upset and more threads would spawn..
a friend of mine that runs an apartment complex had a problem with water in one of thier buildings..her phone was ringing off the hook with why is there no water?

she played dumb and said i'm not sure but we have someone working on it..

if she would have went into details she would have double her calls with even more pissed off renters giving advice on how to fix it or wanting money back for the few hours out of the month they didn't have water..

she told me if there is a problem i handle the problem the best i can..to give more information than needed would only slow things down and cause more heaqdaches and me spending more time on the phone with them instead of handling what needs to be handled..

the reason lindens tell us all we need to know is because telling us more would do not a bit of good and only jam up the phones and forums more than they probably are now..

Account credits haven't been given out since around the Christmas Crash of 2004. I rcv'd one. Guess I read the entire billing agreement.

My advice... keep reading. When it comes to the ToS: Learn it. Know it. Love it (as it cuts both ways).

Until the present service interruption exceeds twenty-four hours you're speculating. Feel free to get back to us when it hits that point. It helps if you hold your breath.

I seem to recall that 'total service interruption' includes the website, forum and blog, so as all except in-world seems to be working I guess we aren't likely to get any credit.

Your attitude makes me sick. No, the world is not ending, you're absolutely right.

I tell ya what... Next time you've purchased something, lets say a nice steak at the local grocery or a dvd at the store, and you come home to find that, for whatever reason, you didn't get the product you were sold... Rather than going back and returning it for a refund... Say to yourself... 'The world isn't ending. Trust me on this one.'

I'm not sure why an understanding of the Terms of Service would make you sick. However, the OP of the thread is encouraging others to protest an agreement which they all agreed to (whether they read the ToS or not). Thus, the OP is seeking to "have their cake and eat it, too" which isn't the way these kinds of agreements, reality, and the known universe operate.

This is also known as a "one-way exclusion."

Things break, nothing is perfect. I've spent thousands of USD in the past 2 years and honestly, I still can't say that I've wasted my money or my time. LL has given me a world of fun.

Thank you, Lindens, for your hard work in trying to make the grid better.

Even if "Total Service interruption" were just the SL world itself we wouldn't be even close to qualifying yet. Let us remember they just kicked the last residents off the grid about 2 hours ago. THAT is WHY they leave residents online as long as they humanly can.

Funnily enough, just last week, I bought a piece of prepacked meat at the supermarket, and when I got home found that the plastic seal had broken and it had actually gone off.

I shrugged, binned it, and phoned for a pizza, and reminded myself to take more care in checking these things on the next trip to the store.

It's not the end of the world. It was a pork chop.

Now THAT made my day!

Mandy C

As it did mine. I'd already put the fries in the oven and they cooked in the time it took the pizza to arrive. I do so hate to waste things unnecessarily, don't you?

I know you're trying to make a point ... But you're failing. Your attitude that this is OK and should just be accepted is sickening. That attitude here should be one with a desire to make it right, not just lay down and accept it as is.


Just curious -- is this par for the course with you? Have you ever returned a defective product? Expected a refund or a replacement to satisfy your purchase? Again, I know you're trying to make a point -- I'm just not sure what your point is. Sounds like you're gonna end up with a bin full of pork chops if you're grocer is putting out bad product as often as LL is.

The problem is that you're mixing metaphors, confusing goods with services.
SL is a service and services go down.

If your electricity went out for a few hours, would you be making the same noise?
How 'bout phones? What if something wonky happened to your ISP and they had to shut down for a few hours to fix it?

The TOS takes into account small outages like this. What's the problem?
You agreed to the TOS. Who's fault is it that you didn't read it?

It's not about making a point. It's about the /reality/ of the situation: No one is entitled to an account credit for a service disruption of less than twenty-four hours as agreed to within the Terms of Service (section 1.6). Not liking it doesn't make it go away. If one doesn't wish to accept it then don't accept the Terms of Service. An individual's over-inflated sense of entitlement does not render the Terms of Service nor an individual section null and void (nor will it bend reality).




In Broc's reality-based example Broc felt that the cost of the pork chop did not exceed the projected effort and possible value from returning (or exchanging) the damaged merchandise. Note that an account credit for interrupted service to Second Life (based on first hand experience) would not exceed the value of a pork chop.

Note that Broc does point out there was an opportunity to inspect the merchandise at the time of the transaction (and that the transaction wasn't handled remotely) and intends to do a better job of taking advantage of that opportunity in the future.

Seems like an insanely realistic, reality-based solution.

LOL -- I can't help but feel I'm talking to a couple of Linden alts right now.

Rather than waste my breath arguing the finer points of pork products and product expectations, I'll leave you guys to enjoy your lives of pizza deliveries and bins of rotting meat. Perhaps when the stench starts to get really foul you'll change your tune and start expecting something better.

If you imbibe an overabundance of alcohol and then crash your vehicle into a tree you don't get to accuse the first passerby of being a policeman when they say, "Don't drive drunk." They're also under no obligation to believe you when you say, "The tree darted out in front of me" nor are they required to take part in your "Chop Down All Fast-Moving Trees" petition drive. Prior to embarking on, and during, an adventure exploring the deleterious effects of alcohol one had the opportunity to step away from the glass of highly expensive malt liquor or polyglycol. [A potential resident has the same opportunity. They can either decline or accept the Terms of Service. Failure to read them before agreeing does not create an opportunity for a one-way exclusion nor precludes their application, good or bad.]

It's about reality. Just because you refuse to embrace it doesn't mean it won't embrace you back. And reality, for the uninitiated, can hug pretty damned hard.

When worth it, yes... but for the price of a pork chop, the bus fare back to the store would have been in excess of the cost of the problem item, so therefore it wasn't worth the bother (the fact the pizza was more than the cost of both put together didn't matter at the time, I was too tired to bother going out again).

I have a number of alts but I can assure you, categorically, that none of them have the surname "Linden".

Much to their detriment, I hasten to add. But that's another discussion.

The OP (me) did not suggest to protest an agreement made. The reference to the Boston tea party (taxation without representation) was a civil duty not a right as has been noted by some very honored men & women.

Having the same problem for weeks (asset servers) and giving a bandaid solution that obviously hasn't solved the problem is rather the issue. Combine all the downtime from the same related problems maybe, again maybe, a more acurate assesment of the 24 hour loss of service.

Agreeing to a TOS does not suggest that one shouldn't expect nor receive quality customer service nor that a company is hamstrung to not make a gesture of good faith.

Legalease is not neccesarily a defenseable position. Signing a TOS under duress (sign it or lose any time, effort, or monies invested up to that point) can be argued.

Never stating a monetary refund is neccesary is leaving the door wide open for any type of good faith and gives the opportunity for a company to step up to the plate to retain its customer base. Letting the company know your diss-satisfaction allows the company the opportunity to guage its effectiveness and is not always a bad thing.

I don't want nor expect 24/7 service or does it sugest that I or anyone else are unreasonably disturbed by unexpected dissruptions on ocassion. Repeated issues of the same nature IMO is a separate issue.


If as mentioned earlier, an apartment complex had water dissruption understandable, a few bothersome but still understandable, continuous over weeks after repeated assertions all fine= not good or a good time for a new pipe, lol.

Pissing on somone's back and telling them that it is raining, I submit will upset people more than setting one recording outlining the real problem (busted mainline) the steps taken to resolve the problem, so all know the real issue and squelch the limitless imagination of those grasping for understanding.

I realize that not all will agree and that is fine, the discourse can be illuminating and can be done without insults to a suitable end. Shutting down the grid for a week if neccesary to fully correct a problem would be more palatable than having multiple issue of the same nature over weeks IMO.

I am not suggesting in any way that I want to leave or not willing to allow LL to correct a situation(s). I love sl and have great respect for those who created it and keep it running in addition I also respect those who acknowledge their failings and seek to remedy in an open outfront way. We are, after all human and subject to error ( I have made some doosies lol) and some of our greatest accomplishments come from the ashes of our perceived errors.

Your thread title clearly states "...[T]ime for a major protest?" and your first post includes the following language:



*once again sighs and once again rolls his eyes*

You're wishing to have it both ways. You're either chronically imprecise or gad about with a sense of entitlement that could dwarf planetary masses. The reality of the situation is: You're not entitled to a refund, in exchange for paying for the service and agreeing to the Terms of Service you get to participate within the framework of the service, you're under no obligation to renew your Terms of Service agreement, it's up to you whether or not you wish to fulfill your side of the obligation and pay any fees involved (as agreed to in advance), and it's up to you whether or not you wish to leave. Though nothing prevents you from encouraging others to leave with you /en masse/ no one is under any obligation to do so.

You cannot use language soliciting a protest and then decline that you were soliciting a protest.



The service disruption has to be continuous. The Terms of Service preclude treating it as accumulative.



The purpose of a corporation (or any business entity) is to engage in transactions, within the framework of the law, which derive a profit. A corporation is under no obligation to provide customer service beyond the value derived from an individual account nor is it under any obligation to engender goodwill within a community. Your expectation of customer service stops at the point where in providing it your account becomes unprofitable.



Unless you can provide photographic evidence that you were about to be sodomized by Pony Linden while he was holding a gun to your head in the event you declined to agree to the Terms of Service you have no "duress argument."



It's not that you're "preaching to the choir" it's that you're "preaching to the wrong choir." We're not Lindens. We cannot help you get an account credit. Based on the premise of your argument, even if we were able to do so, it would not be within our own best interest. [Why would we annoint you with the special status of one-way exclusions from the Terms of Service?]



Again. It has to be continuous, not accumulative.



If you don't wish someone to mention that it's not raining hard, don't mention that it's raining.




If you have the temerity to post a thread soliciting organized protest over the grid being down for a few hours due to an unforseen technical difficulty what could possibly convince us that a week of grid closure would be "palatable." [Sorry, you can't have it both ways.]



If you are unwilling to leave or, in the parlance, "take your business off the table," then why are you asking us to embrace your position that in this one special instance you are entitled to an account credit solely because you seek some form of "goodwill" which you are clearly not entitled to under the Terms of Service?

Anway... wow.. just... WOW! You're kidding right? There's this new thing... it's persisted for about 13.5-billion years... it's called REALITY. Enjoy a 12-ounce can of it today. Available everywhere.

And look what the lack of people getting into the game brings us?...................Nobody.........bored today?

Never asked for a refund, I suggested to send a message, that the same issue needs resolved. That using all clear prematurely raises anxiety. Companies are only companies if their products are bought and most companies are quite aware of satisfying their customer base - that is historical.

Agent provacatuer comes to mind. The question mark and the end of the question of major protest or a clear message sent seeks to understand if the frustration I experience is in line or out, with you clearly out and I accept that.

To use inflamatory language is to de-rail meaningful conversation and or debate and suggests a different agenda and I understand that since I too have used the same . I inserted several times the caveat IMO and thats exactly that. To de-evolve to ad-hominem verbage indicates your done.

I appreciate your point of view and we disagree. I "feel" is clearly within my domain and to express it- my right, sans your agenda. That you choose to focus on "refund" and at the same time ignore "maybe" further suggest you have a bone to pick . Pick away, like Wiley Coyote I will live another day , unless of course you finally develope that elusive eraser I have been searching for.

Thank you someone with a gram of thought finally posted some thing worth reading.