Stolen business name?

You don't talk too much, so take no notice of 3ring's post. This is an interesting topic for this forum. Please continue to discuss the issue.

Sounds like you were confident in your explanation. If that's the case, stick around - shouldn't be a problem.

If you thought that it was damaging to your business reputation, you should have flagged the thread, and had the thread removed. (they seem to be quick to respond on that today)

My first time in Forms, as I said, I don't know rules around here, but yes, you might make sense... I didn't look at it that way

The problem I see is that if someone recommends, for example, Phil's store, the person searching and coming upon the other would not be aware that they are not in Phil's store...most people are not aware or would not notice the minute detail of the spacing

If you look on the left hand side of a post, down below someone's name, there is a button there, that can report a post.

Right above this page....there is the word "Guidelines" in orange, and you can read that to get familiar with the posting rules.

But....I think at this point, might be in your best interests not to get huffy, and stick to your claim. You obviously don't see a problem with it. So to ask that the thread get removed, might send the wrong message.

Yes, I had no intention to do that, I just said you might make sense

I just think it's bad form. I think Phil should pursue it with Linden Labs and sees what materialises...he might have a case. I think it will be detrimental to both of you sharing such similar names and descriptions....and being in the same market sector of "Low Prim Furniture"

Well if it comes down to All Search or Places ranking, my money is obviously on Phil!


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Putting aside the rightness or wrongness, are you asking him to do more than is required by "the rules"? - because you think it would be the right thing to do?
I ask this because you have stated that compliance with the rules is the criterion for right/wrong.

The last time I asked you this, you referred to possible application of RL laws.

If it turns out that RL laws are of no assistance to you, and LL see this as "an inter-resident dispute", then your only recourse will be to ask him to do "the right thing" - above and beyond what is required by the rules. You yourself have stated that people should not have to do anything more than comply with "the rules".

It's clear that in his opinion, he is in the right. You have a difference of opinion.

It is not clear that he had intended to, or actually has, infringed on whatever rights you might have.
A business name involving the words Prim and Save would not be an unusual option for a product that saves on prim counts. Using those sorts of woulds would be a bit of a no-brainer actually.

Much as I might have problems with Phil in other areas (I won't go into that, Sling's already brought some of that up), I think your best decision, Fred, would be to pick a new name.

Whether it's right or not, or legal or not, it would be in your own best interests.

I happen to think it would be the right thing, as well, but that's not the point.

Personally, I enjoy seeing the ways karma tends to work at times.

That said, there is (as usual) a LOT of misinformation going around.

First, "common law" trademarks are only recognized in the US; everywhere else, you have to register them for them to be in effect.

Second, there is no "international trademark". Every country has their own trademark system autonomy in that regard. There ARE attempts to harmonize and globalize trademarks via WIPO (like the Madrid and CTM systems), but they have not gotten very far in a long time. As such, a trademark registered in one country is not exclusive of the same trademark (by someone else) in another country. Companies using the Madrid system, for example, are simply registering their trademarks in all countries (each individually) where they feel it matters to protect them.

Third, not all words or combinations can be trademarked. Something as simple as "Prim" and "Savers" might not even be able to be trademarked, due to the commonality of the words in the context used.

Fourth, SL is in a strange situation with respect to Trademark law. Since they are a service provider, they are only obliged to act under court order issued from a proper jurisdiction. There isn't a "DMCA takedown notice process" for trademarks. DMCA takedown notices are for copyright infringement ONLY.

Fifth, "declaring" a trademark in a public forum doesn't make it any more "official". If your country requires registration for it to be actionable, then you better get your tail down to your local trademark office and file it. If you are in the US, you need to, at a minimum, indicate that the trade/service mark is such. However, that does not grant exclusivity unless the trademark is registered (and it has to be registered before a suit may be filed over it).

Sixth, Linden Lab has no specific rules against using someone else's business name, though they may apply indirect rules related to the CS (harassment, disturbing the peace, etc) in such a situation.

Lastly, if you're really serious about establishing and protecting your trademarks (copyrights, patents, etc), GET A LAWYER! Kibbitzing around on an internet forum over it is useless.

Sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark
http://www.uspto.gov/web/trademarks/workflow/start.htm
http://www.uspto.gov/faq/trademarks.jsp
http://www.uspto.gov/trademarks/basics/index.jsp

Mine too. Now that he knows about it, I don't even get why Floyd would even want a business with a nearly identical name to a store already selling the same thing. Maybe he didn't know before, as he says, because he only searched for PrimSavers with no space, but now that he knows, seems the right thing to do would be to change his name. His stuff could be very different from Phil's, but people are going to get them confused forever after, the way it is now. A drag, not only for Phil but for Floyd too.

I tell you why...

1. It would involve changing over 200 images of products that include the logo
2. Any of the items that have already been sold, include "PrimSavers" in name. That is indirect advertising, as one will be able forever to edit the item he/she will see in world and see the name, then do a search. Doing the search once PrimSavers would no longer exist, will lose me business. Probably would also give him business but that's a secondary aspect.
3. Groups can not be renamed, so if i disband a group and create another all the current subscribers are gone and my clients are not supported as they expect.
4. All notecards, Object names, images, displays, logos would need to change. This would take a very long time.
5. I am in the right...

When I had that happen to me....the guy I chatted with immediately agreed that it would be a glitch in both of our businesses. But most likely more so for him....as he was trying to get started, and I had already gone through that hurdle.

There are enough hurdles as it is. No reason to add one, and the sooner it is addressed, the less damage done to your own business. You're building a business reputation. Your choice on which direction to go. But it's pretty clear, you've got a glitch in it, here.

Before I had a chance to discuss the issue with the person I mentioned....I got on my own damage control, right away, and sent a notice to group members that someone else was using the store name, and to please acknowledge that I do NOT have a partner or other location. They got pretty hot under the collar about it. I would imagine that 2 years worth of Phil's contacts would be the same. If not corrected, I would have maintained constant distinction between the two businesses, and I would have done it aggressively. (I have a hunch that Phil might, too).

I also contacted my business friends to ask for solutions. They were hot, too. Probably not a great idea for a bunch of hot business people to be chatting heatedly about your new business name at SL cocktail parties.

So right off the bat, just from appearance....it did not fair well for this guy to continue. He was very nice about it, and totally agreed. He did not want to start business that way. He got my full respect as a business person for the way he handled the whole situation. It cost him some major time. But would have cost much more time, if he had failed to address it.

Forget all of the above scenarios on trademarks and all the legalities.....forget any moral/ethical/principle theories......it simply doesn't look good, on your part, regardless of what intent was. It will never look good....and you will battle that constantly. No reason to add difficulties in branding your business name. I think it's harder to do in SL than in RL.

You could have avoided going through all of the above by doing a very basic search on business name options.

None of that is insurmountable though, as long as you *want* to change the name.

Groups can be renamed if you can convince a Linden to; if you wanted to rebrand both you and Phil could nag at LL to change the existing group's name.

How long it would take is simply something else to agree upon as well (which as others have pointed out really shouldn't happen in the forums) and "New Name (formely PrimSavers)" would work well enough during the transitional period until people get used to the new name.

Not a big deal. People are more likely to look at the creator field and check your picks.

Why would you ask him this? You've never been open to accept the "general opinion" of the people in this forum. <.<

Not like it matters anyway in this situation, but I think that's about the most hypocritical thing to come out of your head in recent memory. -.-

Not trying to fight with anyone here, and not saying that you try to scare me, but scare tactics don't work well with me.
I am a reasonable man, and I started a business with best intentions in mind, and conducted it without shame and plan to do so from now on as well.
I do believe i'm in the right, and I did my due diligence and did not find PrimSavers as existing entity.

What if i rebrand and i find that instead of "1 Prim Miracles" (let's say) there is "1 Prim Big Miracles"? How about if he was not Prim Savers but Prim Savers Inc.? Or... TM... cause now he is TM. "Prim Savers TM" is not "Prim Savers". Are you sure you want to use "Prim Savers TM"? Because now somebody can simply create "Prim Savers" and not be your company...

Anyway, scare tactics are low, and do not work with me.

If you think Prim Savers™ is a different name than Prim Savers, I recommend you do some research into trademarks.

All right, actually you are right here

I was just saying, that changing names like this can leave u vulnerable. The TM can just enforce a name, i guess, if there is such thing as a TM, and that TM does not even work similarly in UK as US, not to mention my own country.

But yes, you are right here, Argent, i agree

I think that it comes second to:
"Of course it wouldn't be easy to change, ... It will take some time, but changing your business name is the right thing to do in these circumstances......"

That wasn't a "scare tactic" Floyd. It was an example of what happened over a year ago, when I asked some business contacts for help. It's an example of human nature.

When I chose my name, I typed it into all of the searches, every day, for two weeks, in a variety of combinations. (yes, etc. shows up a ton....but it was never a business name). Not separating PrimSavers words, was not exactly "due diligence." Did you do any searches at all....to see what the other low prim furniture stores were up to? Surely, this would be part of due diligence, concerning opening up a store. That store would have popped up right away in any low prim furniture search.

That's the minimal step that any of us should take, before busting out. If we choose not to take that step, then we have no one to blame but ourselves for any difficulties that occur.

I'm not fighting with you, or putting you on the line, Floyd.
Phil and I don't exactly have a "lovey-dovey" history.
I'm just tossing out an example that is almost identical, as that guy was selling furniture, as well. Also tossing out some hints on how customers and contacts react to it.

All right, maybe I misunderstood, no problem.
Also, who is Fred?

Oh god....I was hoping that I could get that corrected before anyone caught it.
Fred, was the bot that moved in next door to me. I'm sorry.....some days my mind drifts......

Oh, Fred...

And it's second time, i caught it first time in a previous post, and said nothing