Shut Your Eyes Rupert! That's a Nude in PG!

The line of demarcation between Mature and PG isn't a moral distinction, it's a commercial one. There's value to some of LL's customers to have an exceptionally "pure" area of the grid. I'm not aware of a big push to get Disney to put nude art on display in their parks. It's not that little Johnny might be scarred by seeing bewbies, it's that bewbies don't sell tickets to Disneyland--unlike Vegas.

It's not moral stigmatizing. It's a set of mores that is established by religions and cultures. Sometimes I prefer a culture or religion that appreciates the subtle wink of an eye to the multitude of "wardrobe malfunctions" or half-dressed teenagers that populate Western society. Grow up. Yours is NOT the only correct or "civilized" way to think.

Did I say it was? I am not certain we should docket religion and culture in the same file drawer. After all, in North America prosylitizing missionaries forced christian religion onto a culture that did not wish to be christian. Residential schools indoctrinated and institutionalized masses of First Nations people. On teh other hand, I am indebted to brave men and women (who were missionaries and political activists) who fought the slave trade for my ancestor's freedom.

Half-dressed teenagers? "wardrobe malfunctions"? Come, come, such rebellion is seen everywhere. My first tattoo and my tongue-piercing were totally rebellious. Yes, I agree, in ref to "growing up" - I have a long way to go; 50 or 60 or 70 years old is a distant nightmare that I must face; old age is not for the faint of heart. I have seen what it can do to liberal-minded people as they harbour suspicion of younger generations.

As I have stated, I am quite happy to live next door to a family of bunnies in sl, as long as they dont impose bunny laws upon me. All I suggested was that we bring sl rules to a more level playing field and perhaps just apply regular USA/continental and global regulations to PG sims. In that way we can even bring together people with various lifestyles for dialogue - which is one of Linden's main objectives (and which is becoming a distant dream).

What?

The vast majority of humanity bases at least part of its culture on its religion, i.e. the Amish believe certain things about dress, comportment, social laws, etc because of the way that they interpret the Bible. It's probably also true that the opposite applies; that religion takes some of its ideas from the culture that developed it. Culture and religion are not mutually exclusive for most of humanity. To some cultures, representation of the human body as "art" is against their religious mores. To other cultures, it's not a problem.

If LL has said that PG land is PG (basically according to the movie standards of PG), then we should adhere to that. If the statue of David is hanging out in a sim, there are absolutely some cultures that would see it as a Mature object, and not fit for young eyes. After all, if you're going to cry that "OMG, but David is a CLASSIC!!! It's ART!!!" you might well consider The Rape of the Sabine Women in a child's eyes. Isn't kidnapping a violent and perhaps adult concept? What about Leda and the Swan? That's not something I'd rather explain.

Granted that SL is supposed to be over 18 and therefore "mature" by all standards, but not all people want to be exposed to "art" like that.

The examples you cited were instances of one culture forcing its religion/values upon another. The "victim" culture did not develop Christianity on its own, so therefore had difficulty reconciling some of the values of the Christian religion with their own cultural mores.

Sometimes the thread titles end up in just the right order:

I'm soooooooo glad I bought (mature) land! (^_^)

Really... SL is a U.S. hosted service. Odds are they're following the MPAA PG standard. Their servers, their rules. (^_^)y

It's possible you fall into a trap we all do in sl - placing the wrong "emphasis" or meaning on words that are typed. I actually am smiling as I type my threads or answers. I just sound "snotty" if you envision me as a sulky female in her late 20s. Hey, come to think of it, I am Lol! BUT In my reality I encourage (by my career choice) debate, dissent and disagreement. I simply enjoy engaging people in a debate or controversial dialogue. I will argue any point because my brilliant father, in reality, taught me to do so (as he did many, many thousands of people) and my mother took me to political meetings and arts exhibitions even when I was in her belly.

I have never actually said to anyone here WHY I ask these questions in sl but one main factor is that I think sl could become a valid resource for human interaction and I try and do my part. But I wont be bullied, coerced, threatened, or chumped into giving in to an opinion that does not agree with mine and maybe I can cause some person t just reflelct on another side. I am committed to freedom of expression. Truly Oryx, I am probably not a very "nice" person in sl or rl - I just liek stirring things up and maybe sparking a debate or ideas. I'll prolly withdraw from forums for a time to let others pose questions of this nature.

I'm foolish enough to try once more to explain why someone can reasonably believe that displaying even a tasteful, artistic nude in a public place on a PG region is not a kind thing to do. Although of course it is possible for there to be non-sexual nudity, even non-sexual nudity may be shocking to some. Not everyone in SL is from Canada, Europe, or the U.S. And there are sub-cultures in those areas that object to even non-sexual public nudity. What may seem artistic and tasteful to those raised in a broadly mainstream western cultural context may seem neither artistic nor tasteful to adults from other cultures and sub-cultures.

The idea that all adults must either share one's own cultural values or else be judged as having psychological or emotional problems is a form of cultural intolerance that is in itself uglier than any image one might display.

As I said before, the grid is a big place. Civility requires tolerance for even those residents whose views one believes are too narrow-minded, or too broad-minded. With so much of the grid being designated as mature, there is no good reason not to respect the limits implied by the PG designation, and many charitable ones for not gratuitously causing discomfort to strangers.

By the way, my last parcel was next to a naturalist camp, which bothered me not at all. I have always lived in mature regions.

Fomenting discussion is fine. But when you start saying things like "do you think we may be going just a leeeetle bit "over the top" if we cant display a nipple? undress? say a mildly suggestive joke? This type of moral stigmatizing reminds me of other places on teh real globe" it can get offensive fast. To me, this statement mocks anyone who might have different moral standards than the self-important, self-aggrandizing "Western" socialites who have decided that their and only their values are civilized enough to be considered "normal."

From the MPAA (Motion Picture Association of America) website, the definition of "PG":
"The more mature themes in some PG-rated motion pictures may call for parental guidance. There may be some profanity and some depictions of violence or brief nudity. But these elements are not deemed so intense as to require that parents be strongly cautioned beyond the suggestion of parental guidance. There is no drug use content in a PG-rated motion picture."

By this definition, I'd consider the statue of David to be PG. I would consider Leda and the Swan to be Mature.

Well, you got me there - 'Tis true, I am a "western socialite" and I suspect my attitudes unself-consciously confirm that. Perhaps I am self-aggrandizing, and, quite likely, self-important. Mocking? Surely that phrase I used is mockery on a very small scale. I never went to university, never took art classes, dropped out at 16, succeeded without family financial support. One thing I have learned from sl is not how similar cultures are BUT how different we are in our expectations and our behaviours. I am not from teh USA (I am a European) and have always taken public art of nudes and displays of affection in public (kissing, embracing, and carressing) as just part of life itself. I am not being facetious when I apologise if I have offended your sensibilities; I dont know if you are female or male, American, German, Spanish, Jewish, Catholic buddhist or Jain; I am sorry if you saw offense in my words.

I think art is art but if it requires an audience mature enough to understand its meaning it should be kept in mature areas. Obviously even in art there still is such a thing as appropriateness. I have noticed that a lot of times art is used more for its shock value and to make political or social statements against certain groups of people while hiding behind the idea that the artist is just "expressing themselves through art". When this happens anybody who finds it inappropriate can simply be labeled "unsophisticated" and accused that they are trying to censor it just for pointing out that it might not be appropriate for certain audiences.

None truly taken. I was just pointing out that certain religions (and therefore societies) have issues with portraying the human form in art at all, and any such art would be seen as "mature" in the SL sense. If Man is built in God's image, then to portray Man's form is to portray God's form, which is a form of idolatry and leads to corruption.

"Remember when he said unto his father, and his people, What are these images, to which ye are so entirely devoted?
They answered, We found our fathers worshipping them.
He said, Verily both ye and your fathers have been in a manifest error.
They said, Dost thou seriously tell us the truth, or art thou one who jestest with us?
He replied, Verily your LORD is the LORD of the heavens and the earth; it is he who hath created them: and I am one of those who bear witness thereof."

To other cultures, a public kiss is scandalous: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/19/AR2007051900208_pf.html

Existing in SL demands a healthy dose of "grains of salt" for all cultures, but a nipple is a nipple is a nipple, and might not belong in a PG sim.

There you go, you see. I don't follow any religious belief (though I enjoy an evensong when I feel I need a dose of faith). But a nipple is a lovely thing; a tiny piece of flesh so utterly and completely human that it must symbolize our own "faith" since we all feed as children from the breast. Michelangelo understood teh nipple. The Hindu temple carvers also had a eye for its perfection. I remember being fascinated by my own as I grew older. We all bring nipples to PG even if they are masked by cartoon clothing.

That's Michelangelo for you!

Let's see the religious nuts go off on that! XD

But... Honestly... You will never see it in full buff in a PG movie in the U.S. (=_=)y

I have no problem with the human form and its depiction. I love Michelangelo; I was blown away and awed at the Sistine Chapel. I don't have any problems with nudity, but there IS a possibility that the Sistine Chapel and the like may be construed as more than the "brief nudity" as defined by the MPAA. Jig mentioned "Guernica" which could be construed as very graphically violent. I'm not defending any "religious nuts" but I do believe that we should maintain the PG sims as such. It would be nice to keep places that devout peoples can explore without worry of violating their own beliefs.

Sure. But so is sex. Okay, not the way I do it, but in theory.

There's benefit to some residents in having a part of the grid that is in some ways more "chaste" than the main grid. Of course, there could be (and probably are) private sims where all women must wear hats, or burkhas, or big plywood prim boxes.

I can't speak for the residents who most value the PG environment, but if the preponderance of demand for that experience favors no nudity--even no nude art--then that's absolutely the right rule for that environment. It's really not up to those of us with more libertine tastes to define the best experience for others.

Personally, I think Guernica is less appropriate for a PG sim than would be Leda and the Swan, and that visible weapons are vastly more offensive than exposed prim bits anywhere on the grid. But I don't define the market for PG.

I haven't read everything in here, but I would just like to say, that in the real world if people didn't object to nudes or swear words, or penis sculptures (my artists make these in RL) they wouldn't be worth a fortune, so thank god for narrow minded people.

One mans art is another porn... Where would you draw the line? Who will decide and if they decide displaying a breast well why not an ass? And if an ass well why not a penis? Or an open vagina?
I don't think there would be an easy decision on what would be ok and what would not.
So in my opinion... don't.

Actually, I know in my town you can be fined for swearing.. even jailed.

Well, there's one place that won't see me signing the guest book of the local motel.

ok.. actually.. you can't say the F word... that is a fine. I think you can say shit or damn..