Lies, Deception and Evilness

Who said anything about deception? I don't know of any LL law that reqires that everyone ask ASL to each other and expect an honest answer. You take your chances when you start asking people about their first life. I, for one, don't care who or what a person is in first life. That is not why I am here.

don't ask me!

Guess its time for SL built-in webcam to go with our SL built-in voice chat.

As usual I get posts mixed up and I have no idea who was talking about deception so I apologize if I attributed it to you.

If a person chooses to not talk about their first life in second life then there is no deception. One of my oldest SL female friends in SL recently told me she was a male in first life. My reaction was so what and who cares.

We can always get a stand in! The only solution is forced DNA testing in the presence of certified LL techs!

But only if they have a really good zoom on them.


"Zoom in a little closer plz..."

"Closer.."

"Closer.."

"Closer!."

"Closer!"

"Closer still!""

"Closer!!"





"Okay, you've passed"

Okay lets deal with these as they are here in a nutshell:

1) In RL you can verify things about people easily for the most part. Where they live, work, play and who with. You can tell a lot about them and they way they are by the way they interact with others. Their body language gives them away in clues that cannot be reproduced in SL or the internet generally. These things give you a measure of trust in an individual and what they tell you.
If they tell you they are madly in love with a man called Alan and they met at such and such a place, you can go and talk to Alan, find out if they live together, are lovers, met at the place they say if it is important to you to know. Not so on the internet, Alan could be your friend Sue in alt form and nothing they say about themselves could be true but you would never know because you cannot verify anything they tell you about themselves. This is an environment where there is no verifiable basis for trust.

2) The medium gives a person total anonimity, how can you ignore that and consider the source? See point one, I cannot verify anything about people that I do not know in SL, it could all be lies and so where is the incentive to trust?

Oh don't get me wrong, I don't tell everyone I meet in SL that I think they are lying when they tell me things, I just act as though I believe them. Why not when it is stuff that does not matter? It is healthy I believe to remain distanced like this in such circumstances and protects an individual from getting hurt unnecessarily which I have notices happens to an awful lot of people in SL over a variety of things ranging from the inconsequential to the serious but all based on a betrayal of trust. If those people just protected themselves more at the beginning and did not have an expectation of trust from those whom they do not really know then there would be less hurt all round I think.

Now that I have explained myself further, can we move on?

Lol all SL cliches, every one of them lol

"Do I look fat in these genes?"

Gotta get closer than that for proof. The real nitty gritty of it is:

http://www.biologyreference.com/images/biol_04_img0412.jpg

or

http://www.biologyreference.com/images/biol_01_img0082.jpg

It depends on the level of interaction.

On one side of the interaction spectrum would be somebody that goes around and remains quite aloof. Yet on the opposite end would be somebody that's wanting to form close relationships while deliberately withholding key details. Details that they know would prevent a relationship from ever forming.

I think the latter is clearly deception.

So do you think that every person who declines to engage in the ASL game is being deceptive? I don't see anything wrong with forming a close realtionship with someone on SL without providing them with all of my vital statistics.

no, not at all.

But I've met some sneaky ones that are very good at making others assume certain details.

Like the old photo from the past where they were much younger and had long hair. Or a photo that accidentally passed through a "gimme some nice large breasts" photoshop filter.

But what if one does not provide any details about their first life?

lol. i'm start to feel like moses after delivering the ten commandments.

"what if my wife is sleeping with somebody else?, can i sleep with another woman then?"


The good lord says thou does not have to give personal details when playing Second Life.

ditto hopefully less drama too
People get to be anything want here and when you add the sexual aspect this is bond to happen. Not everyone feels they need to tell everyone about their real life self and some eventually do once they grow attached and truth is revealed this happens.
Anyway this happens all time but usually its men with female avatars.
I tell people straight out I am TS here, good news I have no love life here. LOL
Maybe I should create alt to just be deceptive so I can be like everyone else?
Nah not really interested.

Then you agree that an avatar in itself does not represent anything more than a SL avartar? I am glad to hear that Moses.

not sure then how you would explain what happened with me LOL

and for the record I am truthful, even though some folks tend to think that those of us who have made online into RL work, think that we are not being truthful...

That is their choice, believe me, or not, doesn't change my life any heh

agree, that is the way I am seeing her comments too

just because one has not experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't happen
just what would we gain by lying about it???


That would be like saying I hear riding a rollercoaster is fun, but I have never done it so do not believe it, because everyone that rides one lies about it being fun.

*shrug*

what I do not understand is why are you willing to believe people are deceived?
yet not willing to believe that people make it work?

you state that people make it up, that it can't be true in your opinion.... yet (and you probably do not believe me, that is your choice) I am living proof it works, I met my husband in SL first then in RL, been married almost 2 years in RL

It works, I was not looking, we just found each other, and I am thankful everyday we did

I would sooner see the stories about those who made it work, than those who got hurt

(which I still find strange that you tend to believe those stories without any question... but if someone finds love and tells about it, you believe them to be lying...)

*shrug*

It depends. In SL, just as in RL, there is this phenomenon known as a "web of trust". To verify something that someone tells you in RL, you have to either do the sleuth work yourself, or you can entrust it to someone whom you feel confident won't mislead or downright lie to you about it (assuming that you have such contacts; not everyone has them). The same is true in SL. While you may not know someone in RL, you may have a good friend who does; maybe someone who introduced you originally.

In addition, things people say and do create history; that goes as much in RL as in SL. While it is true that you cannot as easily discern RL claims solely from the context of SL, it is still quite possible to get a satisfactory "comfort level".



That is true; however, SL words and actions (especially when taken as a "history" also carry similar kinds of these "hints". They aren't necessarily any more or less clear than the RL kinds you refer to, but it is possible to learn how to discern them, given enough time and experience. The problem is that it is a totally learned skill; there's no analogue in our evolutionary development which would make this insight innate. Also, some people are better at it than others.

The other thing tends to come down to questions we have to ask ourselves in RL when we question the integrity of what someone tells us. Things like "Why would he be lying to us about this? Is there anything in his history which might clue us in about it?".

Another aspect of discerning the truth is that the vast majority of people are HORRIBLE, TERRIBLE roleplayers and "hidden alt" users. Meaning that, given enough experience with someone, you can get a pretty high comfort level that what they are telling you is consistent with what you have experienced with this person. If they are playing you, unless they happen to be the extremely tiny minority of people who can keep it up for long periods at a time without "slipping up", you're likely going to eventually find out, potentially long before anything serious starts. This also includes conspiracies. Real conspiracies are incredibly difficult to manage without some party to it screwing up and revealing part or all of the truth.

I'm suspicious by nature; when approached by strangers making claims, I think I am pretty much like you; I take it with a pinch of salt. However, I have come to know a lot of people and have assigned them various confidence levels in my "web of trust" hierarchy for various reasons. Some I trust implicitly, even without having ever met them in RL. Of course, I have been betrayed once or twice, too, but that's part of life. On the balance, my trust is more often well-placed, well-earned, and well-rewarded than not.



Well, let's take a real example: Argent here tells us that he met his wife online and (from other things he has said on the matter), he's been very happily married. Now, I don't know Argent from Adam's House Cat in RL, so, like you, I have no verifiable way of knowing it is the truth of the matter or not. However, I *DO* have a very high confidence level that Argent is a person of high integrity, not only from the many things he says, but also in how he says them. More importantly, others I know better have spoken very highly of him. Then comes those same questions that I would have to ask myself if someone told me such a thing in RL. "What reason would Argent have to fabricate such a statement, not only in the context of evidence in a subject that it directly relates to, but as a footnote in other discussions unrelated to the subject?"

Now, it is possible that he may actually be going to great lengths to fabricate such a thing, but I know people in RL who have also gone to great lengths to deceive another, making it as difficult, if not more, to verify versus this kind of claim in SL. As such, it is possible to attain a similar level of confidence; even still, you can never be 100% certain of it SL versus RL, unless you experienced it directly.



With the concept of a "web of trust" being an integral part of any society, I would have to say that assertion is at least misguided, if not downright incorrect. Unless you live the life of a hermit (which has the same effects in RL as it does in SL with respect to this issue), you will eventually build up a network of friends, and even foes, whom you can use to guide you on the question of trust at times.



There is no such thing as "total anonymity". It's a myth. Every time you interact with another person, even if you are "faking it", you are giving up a little bit of anonymity. If you cannot verify anything about anyone you've never met before in SL, then you may have a poorly developed web of trust. Sure it could be all lies no matter who is telling you or where they are telling you. Maybe you can verify it, maybe you can't. As for where the incentive to trust is, I think that is particularly academic. The incentive for trust is where it becomes more advantageous to trust than disadvantageous if said trust turns to betrayal. To fall back on another old cliche as a response: "Nothing ventured, nothing gained."

I also never said I ignore the medium; I said it was not the most appropriate litmus for believability.



Well, if it is stuff that does not matter, then you really shouldn't be investing either belief or disbelief in what they say. Not sure why you would want to characterize things in a disbelief sense. In math terms, -0 is still 0, just like +0. If someone tells me they own a pink polkadotted iguana in RL, OK. I have no reason to challenge it (unless I just want to be pedantic, or am curious), so I just take the statement at face value. Later, if said person wants to SELL me that rare, pink-polkadotted iguana, I'm going to start to question it a little more intently, and start relying on my experiences with said person, on my "web of trust", and all other tools at my disposal to discern the truth of the matter, long before I plunk down good money for it.



I don't disagree with what you say, by itself; however, couched in terms of the rest of your argument, I do believe that people can also be hurt from being too over-protective of themselves in the trust department. Lost opportunity and superficial relationships being two chief downsides. For example, someone telling me I am likely a liar about something I say because that person doesn't know me and has no way of verifying said claim doesn't instill me with a lot of desire to extend trust towards that person myself. Generally, I am more than happy to provide requisite, verifiable support for my claims, or at least go to lengths to properly classify them as taste or opinion, where appropriate.

I do agree, though, in general, that many people tend to be a little loose with their trust and confidence, often placing it in the worst possible places online or offline. Whether their numbers are statistically significant or not, I can't say, but I imagine that, for the most part, they are able to learn from their mistakes, tempering their judgments through accumulated experience, and reducing their level of risk for the long term.

No one would ever trust anyone if there were no acceptable level of risk for betrayal.



*shrug* Please do, if you like. I find the conversation interesting, and quite on-topic, myself.

Now my eyes are hurting.

I met my RL partner online.. not on SL but on yahoo chat..
neither of us was looking for a relationship..
we became friends.. and as time went by and we became closer we used voice and cam and then phone and sms...to a point where we left webcams on 24/7 so it was a substitute home for us.. we could come home and face the camera.. and say .. hi honey .. i am home.... and eventually we met .. we have been living together for 4 years now..

My own opinion.. is that if the relationship is real to both parties, then it is just a natural progression that more than the virtual world is shared. if, lets say the love of your S.Life is still only meeting you in avatar form after 3 or 4 or 6 months.. and you have only seen a handful of photos.. you should accept that it is just a virtual relationship.

of course that doesnt make the feelings any less real.. the joys and the hurts... but it does mean that the person is keeping SL and RL separate. and for that, there must be a reason.
Virtual relationships can be fulfilling .. as long as you keep things in perspective.

a webcam isnt all that expensive.. skype is free.. that is the beauty of the internet.. distance can be overcome.. if you both want it to be. If both of you are satisfied with it just being online.. thats good too.. but if one person is unhappy.. then it isnt working.

Sometimes ppl enter into a virtual relationship.. meaning it to be just that.. they are roleplaying at the start.. and then, with time they fall in love for real.. some come out and admit the truth .. and in some cases it doesnt matter.. the details are overcome by the true feelings and the relationship goes on to the next level.. some are too scared and selfish to tell the truth and would rather keep the other person at any cost..
in some cases they tell the truth, but the other person was so in love with the IDEA of the avatar persona .. that they cant love the real person..and feel betrayed.

and then again ... some ppl.. and i like to think they are the minority... just like to play games.. they dont particularly care whether they hurt the other person or not.. after all .. game over and you get another life..

i once saw a couple.. they met .. whirlwind .. crazy love.. a week or so of intense intimacy .. and then the girl revealed .. in front of everyone .. her true sex and persona.. and he took malicious joy in doing so.. that kind of person can rot in hell for all i care... but thankfully i dont think there are too many like that.

ugh i wrote way too much.

Your shades aren't dark enough.

having said that.. LOL
i also know someone who met a guy from Morocco on MSN chat.. and totally ****ed up their life over him.. lost vaste amounts of money, her husband, her children... etc etc .. and she still loves him...

some ppl just need to believe.. no matter what.