"For Sale" signs now forbidden?

That's really not anyone's concern but your own.

It's also just a slippery slope down to the 16m² parcel again since people who group-deed land often have small multiples of 16m² of unused tier left and wouldn't it be terribly helpful if that 1024m² had been available to them in 16m² slices so they could really use all of their available tier?

Oh and of course then there should be 64 "for sale" signs since "1 sign per parcel isn't unreasonable" and we're back to where we started with blights all over the place.

You had one parcel, you're allowed one "for sale" sign, where is the problem?

Now you did split the land, but who's fault is that? You decided to split it so you live with the consequences of that which is that you have to share 1 sign across 2 parcels. Noone but you forced you to sell 2 512m²'s rather than 1 1024m².

Because it would just encourage people to split their land for sale into smaller pieces so they'd be allowed to have more "for sale" signs and could be more of a pain to the neighbours all over again.

Kitty.

Didn't you understand why it can be a good thing to split a parcel? I'll say it again. It gives buyers the opportunity to buy the amount of land they want. Included in that consideration is the tier level. I later put a 3rd 512 up for sale - adjacent to the other two. The girl who bought the first two isn't buying the 3rd one because it would move her up a tier level. That piece was orignally a 1536. If I hadn't split it, she wouldn't have been able to buy 1024 of it. So don't keep on about not splitting land, just so you can have one sign that covers it all. It works against people - I mean buyers - not sellers.

Your answer to my question doesn't really make much sense. You can split land, have one sign per parcel, and not be a pain to any neighbors. As you can see from the previous paragraph, splitting land can be very beneficial. Also, what if the parcels are in different parts of the sim and splitting doesn't come into it? Answer that one please.

It can understand it, but it's been so thoroughly and utterly abused in the past that I personally wouldn't give it a blanket "ok".

It's also not hard to IM someone and go "hey, I noticed you have 1536m² up for sale right next to me. Would it be possible to cut off x m² so I can get more prims?". That's something that happens all the time when someone notices there's land up for sale next door to them but it's larger than what they need/want/can afford.

And if she noticed two signs in the middle of two 512m², she would have noticed one sign in the middle of a 1024m²/1536m² just as easily.

Why? She IM'ed you to ask if you couldn't hold them for a day so why would she have suddenly been tonguetied to ask if you couldn't split it into 1024m² for her and have just a 512m² up for sale for someone else?

The only reason you ran into any trouble is because of limitations you placed on yourself. You could have sold the whole parcel as 1536m² with one sign, she could have asked you to split 1024m² off and you'd have had one sign for the remaining 512m². Exactly what happened now and with never more than 1 sign.

You *can* do it without being a pain, but not everyone will end up doing it that way. Some land sellers have clearly abused any leeway that's been given to them in the past, they shouldn't get any of it back again.

You always go on about how if something isn't explicitly banned it must be allowed and sanctioned by LL and can be milked for all it's worth. That's why guidelines have to be strict and now that we have something with guidelines that don't leave a whole lot open to interpretation you're still not any more inclined to play by the rules yet you're wondering why we need rules in the first place .

On a related issue,

I recently sold a bulk load of prefabs to a Mainland estate manager who set them up over four regions with the plan of renting them out. I gave her a reduced price and she allowed me to place some "advertising" around her sims. So I placed small plaques 70 cm x 30 cm on the sides or back of each build saying 'Created by (insert shamless plug)". I then placed a small sign 1m x 2m in the central public area of each region with my store logo and a LM giver.

I have done this before quite a few times but the regions have allways been privately owned in the past rather than Mainland.

So do you think this is in violation of LL's new ruling?

Would it be ok to put out vendors that sell "For Sale" signs? They could have a picture of the item for sale on them, right? You could have several different signs in the vendor for sale, with the display returning to the default "For Sale" picture.

No it hasn't. We didn't have the current rules concerning size, location (ground), etc. in the past, so how could they have been utterly abused?. How would one For Sale ad per parcel, designed according to the new size restrictions, etc. be abused? Remember we are not talking about micro-parcels.

Yes, that's pefectly possible, but it's much more messing about than is necessary, and isn't a normal way of buying and selling land. Many, perhaps most, people wouldn't even think of asking for a parcel to be cut down for them. It's so much better all round to just allow the buyer to buy the amount s/he wants, and it has the added benefit that a would-be buyer could actually buy the land while the going is good, rather than wait for action by the seller. The land might be sold while waiting. I'm sorry but, whilst that idea is possible anyway, it can be bad for a would-be buyer. It could even make them buy more than they actually want, just to be sure of getting what they want.

See above.

See above. Also, I didn't get into into any trouble. Are you mixing me up with someone else?

Then a special rule would be suitable for land sales. E.g. the sign must be flat on the gound, no more than 0.5m high and no more than 8x8m horizontally.

Untrue. If you're referring to bots, then LL has explicitly stated that they are allowed.

You imply that I'm used to not playing by the rules, but you are totally wrong. The *only* time that I haven't played by the rules is when I put one ad on each of those two parcels, and I am certainly inclined not to play by that particular rule because it's stupid.

You didn't answer my question, Kitty. Didn't you see it? I'll ask it again. What is the difference between two people selling a parcel in different parts of the same sim and each placing a For Sale sign on his/her parcel, and one person selling the same two parcels and placing a For Sale sign on each parcel?

Phil if everyone was a reasonable decent person in SL I would agree with you, but seeing that's not the case, I have to agreed with Kitty's point of view here.

As a kind of example to this, one thing that never gets much of a mention is the number of complete morons that get booted from Private Estates on a daily basis, because private estates owners can and with little loss. LL can't boot residents on a daily basis for being morons, because it wouldn't make financial sense, so they have to enforce some rules to control these morons and sometimes these rules inadvertently affect the rest of the residents.

A RL example, I hate having to take my shoes off at the airport to have them scanned, 8 times my last journey, but I have to do it, just because of a few terrorists who might try to blow a plane up with their shoes, which is also pretty daft.

But how could a moron abuse it if one For Sale ad per parcel was allowed? We are not talking about micro-plots - just normal sized plots.


How about this for a rule:-

One For sale ad per plot. The ad must be flat on the ground, no higher than 0.5m and no more than 8m in any horizontal direction. In all other respects, the ads must comply with the general rules.

Even an ad on each 16m plot in a set of them couldn't be unsightly with that rule.

the difference is that now LL says you can't. easy solution: add your alts to group, give them land permissions and let them sell the spare land off.

It shouldn't be necessary to fiddle about like that, just to do something that is patently reasonable and sensible to do.

Also, that would be against the new rules. It isn't about accounts or avatars. It's about the person. That was made very clear. Ad-farmers cannot get around the rules by using alternate accounts.

In the Mainland Discussion with(out) Jack Linden, people, repeatedly, asked for clarification of the land for sale signs thing. Nothing ever came of all those requests.

So, I guess we just have to live with the fact that you get one and only one land for sale sign per region and not more than 50 total.

I was in that thread a little bit, and your "with(out)" Jack Linden is dead accurate.

But I don't think clarification was sought about land for sale signs, as much as people wanted what he had stated in the blog about it to be changed to allow one for sale ad per parcel. There were one or two people who didn't think that for sale signs are needed at all but, if I'm not mistaken, the concensus was that it should be one ad per parcel - pretty much what it's like in this thread.

One For Sale sign per owner, per sim is plenty. If you have two parcels... put a for sale sign on one and when it sells put it on the other. The goal is to limit the number of signs.

It's not enough when one person is selling several parcels in the sim. It goes without saying that if something is for sale, it needs a sign stating that it's for sale or potential buyers won't know.

While I agree the one sign per region for land sales is absurd, I disagree with your statement that "potential buyers won't know". All they need is to open the main map, turn on the Land Sale checkbox and that sea of yellow is hard to miss.

Add "no more than one for-sale ad per each 512 square meters owned in the sim, regardless of the parcel size".

It doesn't really go without saying. If it's for sale it shows up on the map and "about land". The sign is redundant. They are letting you have one per sim... why push for more? Seems like you are just trying to be difficult.

As I keep saying, you don't *NEED* For Sale signs. Many people don't even bother to use them in the first place.

I have bought 32,000sqm of land in my sim, one parcel at a time (512sqm to 8000sqm), and only about a third of the plots that I bought had any kind of sign on them. I found them via View->Land Owners, via the map for sale overlay, and a few via Land Search and Auctions.

The complaint that the For Sale map overlay doesn't immediately update is specious to me, because the vast majority of parcels don't sell before it does, except to bots, who DEFINITELY don't use/need signage to find the plot.

In every case presented so far, one or more of those three tools would have sufficed for someone to discover the plot(s) for sale, as easily, if not more easily than if they had a sign on them.

Don't forget that a lot of folks also don't have their draw distance up very high (mine is at 128m, but lots of folks are less than that), so I don't see them too far away. But I WILL see them via the other methods, because terrain draws twice that distance.

Oh, regarding the airport security thing... let's not try to compare what amounts to nothing more than "security theater" to this situation. Though I don't doubt that some of what LL does is odd and questionable at times, but the silliness at airports is intended for nothing more than giving the public a "feeling" of safety, rather than actually protecting anyone from so-called "terrorists".

We've been through that already. It only applies to people who are actually looking for land for sale, which leaves plenty of people out.

We've been through that before. Plenty of people buy land who aren't looking to buy, so, without a sign, they wouldn't know that a piece is for sale.

Also, I do think it goes without saying that, if something is for sale, a sign stating the fact should be allowed.

I haven't mentioned 'full sims'. I haven't even alluded to 'full sims'.

It's quite possible that you have been through it before and came to the wrong conclusion. A person is just as likely to fly over the land and see "for sale" at the top of their viewer window, or open the map for another reason and see the yellow square. The signs are not required for people to notice the land is for sale. The goal is to clean up the mainland. If I owned a 512 in a sim and my neighbor owned 5120 and decided to sell... I would be majorly pi**ed if they cut it into ten 512s and then put up 10 signs. One sign per sim is enough. If you don't think it's enough exposure then pay to list it in search.

Of course For Sale signs aren't "needed", but you are not taking into account people who are not looking to buy land, but only buy when a suitable piece comes up. They don't use any of the easy-to-use methods because they are not looking. For instance, suppose I was selling two seperate pieces in the sim that I mentioned, and I'd put the one allowed sign on a piece that was nowhere near the girl's shop. What then? Someone who is looking could buy the piece that the girl would have wanted IF she'd known it was for sale. In the past, I had 4 totally seperate chunks of land in that sim, and that could easily have happened. One For Sale ad per sim does *not* serve the best interests of everyone - it can hinder them. And one For Sale ad per parcel will not lead to ad abuse.

Just out of interest, I do what you do. I've gathered over 40k of the main sim I'm in, by doing exactly that - turning Land Owners on and flying round regularly. But I'm looking to buy land there, and that's different.

You seem to be making the assertion that "plenty of people" "impulse buy" land, which doesn't ring very true to me. Land isn't something you just "impulse buy", because it is a liability. People rarely "impulse buy" liabilities.

In the case of your neighbor buying plots, she WAS looking to buy land, even if it was simply in the passive sense. Someone "not looking to buy" simply isn't looking to buy, and no mechanism in the world is going to get them to buy. Regardless, at some point, she could just as easily have turned on View->Land Owners, and seen that the plots were for sale, or just happened to open her map and spotted all that yellow next to her land.

Even still, the greater majority of people buy land via Land Search, because they want a good deal, and that's how they find land at a good price most often. Bots don't need for sale signs, and they probably are the biggest single land traders. Even before bots, resellers used Land Search rather than traveling the grid looking for land for sale (though, even if they did travel the grid, they certainly would use View->Land Owners, in order not to miss parcels for sale with no signs).



I don't disagree with the premise; I only disagree with the assertions used in support of it thus far. They seem a little strained to make the point they are intended to make.

I find it really funny that some mainland residents get upset about the possibility of more than one unobtrusive "for sale" sign owned by one person on one region - when on the other hand because of their no-covenant-mainland they wouldn't be able to do anything about someone opening an ugly ... (insert your most unwanted neighbor like frankenstein castle, club, strip bar, mall, casino, whatever) next door. A Pavlov like bite reflex about the words "for sale"? Again, we are talking about a small, discreet sign that doesn't spam with notecards or LM's and is in full compliance with the new rules for such signs.