"For Sale" signs now forbidden?

Nope. If they are going to change the rules, they need to let us know they are changing the rules. Does WoW change the rules on their blog? No, you get a notice when you log in.

Past practice: LL has made us agree to a new TOS at login in the past. (Even when they can't figure out how to get the text to appear on the log-in screen... lol )

Yes it is their rules. Contained in the TOS that I agreed to when I signed up. (or at later notification of changes to that TOS)

And I know, ignorance is no defense. But LL can grab my eyeballs anytime I log in to tell me about changes, it's their game!!

They haven't done so. They never had a mandatory TOS renewal after the kidsex/gambling changes. LL needs to communicate this sort of thing better, not for me, not for you, but for the thousands of residents that don't read the forums or the blog. 80% of the residents? higher?

Owwww.. she may have found a loophole... her's are "On Sale" signs and not "For Sale" signs!!1!!!

I don't think so but I can't see anyone challenging this in a fashion that makes the effort worthwhile. Change of conditions via website only have been ruled against before for other companies.

Oh PLEASE...say it ain't so!!!

It ain't so. It's the purpose of the signs, not the phrasing, that matters.

There was no ToS notification because the ToS didn't actually change. They are using 4.1, the conduct section, to cover advertising just as they have done with some other changes. Under there, spam and abuse both have this nifty "sole discretion" wording that gives them the leeway to clean up after rules lawyers and make policy fixes like this one.

If these non-adjacent parcles are 16m plots then this is exactly what the new rule was intended to stop. When looking for land I use the yellow overlay on the map screen, I suspect thats what most people also do, that and land search. The use of "For Sale" signs are a product of the FU , "it's mine I'll do what I like" attitude of some people. This selfish attitude is something that does nothing to better second life. By allowing these few self-centered people to continue to thumb their noses at the rest of us, lessens the experience for the majority, and will lead to even more bad publicity for Second Life and result in a loss of revinue for Linden Labs. If it's bad for Linden Labs buisness, then it will be put a stop to, and at the end of the day it is these economics that will ensure that these forms of harresment are brought to an end.

Just like a playground bully who goes running to teacher when someone puts him on his ass, the people in here bitching about how unfair it is are the very people who are causing others to give up and leave. For every one of these people moaning about their right to "do as they please", ten people leave and take their money with them. Do the math, who will Linden Labs be more concerned with? Just accept it your days are numbered if you don't like it you can leave, most of us will throw you a going away party (once you have gone of course) and Second Life will be all the better without you.

And then we can all hold hands, sing songs and dance in circles with flowers in our hair. Give me a break.

"Its mine I will do with it what I want" is the basic building block of all human rights. If you do not fully control what is yours, then you just another slave. You may choose to be a slave, I don't.

And the prisons are full of the rugged individualist types you admire.

Yes because control freaks like you can't stand anyone not being part of the flock. I never said anything about harming you or your property. Anything I do with my property affects only me. If you don't like the view, tough that is not actual harm. To imprison or punish anyone who has not cause actual harm to another is the height of tyranny.

At first I fully supported LL's crackdown on ad farms and still do in theory but you'd think they would use some common sense (ok, maybe that is a bit too much to expect.) Unfortunately as seems to be indicated in the latest thread in "Mainland Discussion with Jack Linden" the land cutters are just as active as before, multiple examples of cut land with donut holes, checkerboard patterns, etc. have already been posted in that thread. Linden Labs does not seem to get it, it is using land and/or advertising as a tool for extortion and griefing that are the problem here.

If someone owns multiple lots in the same region and is in the business of selling or renting those lots they need to have some way to indicate which lots are for sale or available for rent and for that signs are necessary (of course if the signs are being used to extort or grief that should be dealt with and the signs should conform to a reasonable policy). Residents that own rental property and who buy large lots of land to subdivide and resell are some of the largest contributors to LL's coffers in tier fees. Why LL would adopt a policy that harms legitimate business owners is completely beyond me, especially when those very business owners, the ones that hold large amounts of land, are the ones that provide the most income to LL.

Um anyone who knows how to buy land knows how to put on land owner and sees
the special colored land.
For sale or On sale signs aren't really necessary.
If I want to buy your land, I will buy it.
I will no longer buy from those with those ugly signs regardless
if they are ruining my view, and I don't live or build on ground level
any more because of the signs.
Personally I hate signs especially the big and spinning one's just are eye sores.
They make often living in a sim that is constantly being flipped miserable.
I appreciate land traders who do flat signs but it's not necessary for
you to put it on each lot you're selling, people aren't blind.
I am actually glad they are doing this because it means for all the years
us Mainlanders have to deal with signs and extortion practices with land traders
and flippers they are actually doing something to show they care.
Yeah you have right to whatever opinion, doing whatever for your next L$,
believe whatever, but their also other people who exist around you too who
may disagree.
And is just possible LL has listen to those who wanted something else and
decided to do something about it?

It isn't the nice guys who have placed 'for sale' signs with care and tried to keep it tasteful who caused the new rules, but those who abused our space and eyes. Unfortunately though, the rules have been made and must apply to everyone, even the nice guys who didn't cause the problem, because it's the only way we can be protected from those that did.

Disagree slightly with you here FD. The spinning for sale signs are unnecessary but the small ones I've found useful when I have enough tier to expand in a sim where I have land but I'm not actually searching for land for sale. If a neighbour is selling up they can be handy.

I am sorry about this issue I don't care if you or anyone disagrees.
No one cares how those of us forced to live in sims are constantly be
flipped for next buck feel for years.
I have lived in place with endless signs, big giant advertisements maybe
there will be a small one but it soon will be replaced with big giant one
or mega prim sign.
They aren't neighbors, their land traders or land spammers who only care about themselves and getting what they want often who have no desire to live
any where except flip land or sell whatever they are selling with little or no regard
for others.
The majority don't add anything to community or sim except to themselves.
I don't care what size it is because it will always turn into bigger sign.
It would actually be nice to have the ability to live and build
at ground level without feeling like only way I ever have control over this is being wealthy enough to spend the money on entire island or several sims
for once.
I can't buy several sims or island. Lot of us who live on mainland can't afford more, have right to our own freedom to enjoy our land too. And we don't want
to rent someone's spot on their island either, there large community of people who don't
trust rental situations.
For years no one has listen. I am glad LL is listening for once.

Can't wait to see how long it takes LL to respond to my AR about the 6 "On Sale" floating signs - or if they do.

Signs on the ground I have no issue with.

Personally, I don't see much point in "for sale" signs with land search, map overlay, and View->Land Owners. The only benefits I have been told are in "branding" and potentially making things look nicer instead of just having empty land. Some folks' signs were really nice and included plants, rocks, and other scenery, trying to make the land look less like a patch of dirt, and an actual place to build stuff.

That said, I don't think LL should have placed the 50 limit restriction on lots 256sqm and up for sale, as long as the rest of the rules were kept intact, as well as not using the land for advertising networks.

Maybe that can / will change soon.

As the saying goes: One rotten apple spoils the whole barrel.

Frankly, I'd have rather had visual muting, but... it wasn't my choice to make.

Followed by:

Oh-kay.

Up until this yellow/black, 6-sign spinning display on our sim that must have happened overnight, the majority of land sellers had cute little islands on their sale land. One or two even had some nice Japanese structures on them. So even though a lot of land is for sale, like you said, it still looked pretty and not barren. A few of the plots had a generic "For Sale" sign on it, but were within the ground restrictions. (Of course sellers with multiple plots on the sim had the same sign on each plot...will be interesting to see if they dwindle down to 1. THAT I am definitely not ARing.)

By making land more expensive they likely reduce land ownership. This was certainly the case before LL opened the floodgates on sim auctions, and then on cheap islands. I'd probably own a full sim (and be paying more in tier) if I'd been able to get one when I was in the market.

The mainland is less useful than it could be for large projects, or scenic projects, or professional projects, because it's broken into little pieces. Even if you manage to get a large parcel your neighbors are likely to be unorganized little projects with no green space.

IMO land resellers hurt LL.

I guess I can see your point regarding for sale land but there is no such mechanism when it comes to lots that are for rent (and I'd still argue that a single for sale sign on a lot that is for sale should be allowed if not only to allow passers by that may not be looking at the map to recognize land that is for sale.) It seems clearly obvious to me that someone that owns multiple rental lots in the same region should have a right to put a sign up when they are available. Not making an exception for that to me shows that LL did not think this through.

There has to be a way to go after ad farmers/extortionists that does not trample all over the rights of legitimate business owners that support LL's best interests by paying large amounts in tier. Again, I am not in any way advocating giving people the right to put back up spinning/glowing, etc. signs, in fact, it is in the best interest of landowners that are legitimate to keep their signs unobtrusive as the last thing they want to do is ruin a neighborhood they are invested in. It's usually easy to see who is abusing the system and who is not, it's time to crack down on the abusers, not legitimate business owners.

I disagree with your assessment because the bulk of LL's income comes from tier fees, when a resident buys a large amount of land and splits it up into smaller chunks it generally increases revenue for LL as smaller land owners pay much higher amounts in tier (per square meter) for the same amount of land.

You're way off with much of that. For one thing, who was talking about 16m parcels? I was referring to several normal size plots in the same sim, sometimes well seperated.

Another of your points that's wrong is the idea that people can look for land by using the Land Owners option and search. They can, of course, but who said anything about people looking for land? Land is often sold to people who just happen to notice a piece for sale, but aren't actually looking to buy land. If we were reduced to your methods only, many people wouldn't notice that a piece of land adjoing theirs is for sale, and would miss it without having the opportunity to consider it. A lot of land is bought that way - not only because it is adjacent to already owned land, but also because it is in the sim and would be useful prim land.

Carrying that last point forward, Jack has made rules so that some people won't even realise that a piece of adjoining land, or useful prim land, is for sale. If the seller is selling more than one parcel in the sim, the rules prevent each of them from having a sign. It's not only sheer stupidiy, but it can bad for other landowners in the sim. Another aspect of how stupid it is, is that if the same pieces of land are being sold by different owners, then the rules are that they can each have a For Sale sign.

All points taken and you're welcome to disagree with me any time you like, but the people who are mostly likely to be attracted by for sale signs are neighbours. Neighbours often want the sim to stay nice because they have a presence there. The people using the land search for sale tools are often strangers to the sim.

The reason for the policy change is because of the spinning for sale signs and yes they are an eyesore but there are also side effects that may not be beneficial.