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Inclusive Communities and Representations of Violence against Women

Ponsonby Low
Unregistered User
Join date: 21 May 2008
Posts: 1,893
05-23-2009 12:42
Here is the claim you just made (post #742):


From: Shane Roxan
she made statements and then denies that her agenda is the same still.



"she made statements"...............what statements? Give us the post numbers, and cut-and-paste the sentences, please. Or you will be revealed as having made a false claim.


"then denies that her agenda is the same still"..............Give us the post numbers and cut-and-paste the sentences in which these denials were made. Or you will be revealed as having made a false claim.
Amity Slade
Registered User
Join date: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 2,183
05-23-2009 12:44
From: Steely Carver
"Do we have special places in RL where it is "ok" to be a racist?"

Yes, the privacy of your home and land.


And, as I pointed out earlier, even the anti-discrimination laws in the U.S. have size cut-offs.

I've worked in small offices before where we may have had 13 or 14 people on staff, and it was a serious consideration when it came to hiring new people whether we really wanted to hit the 15 employee mark, which would make us subject to our state's employment anti-discrimination laws. Fair housing laws doing apply to people renting out space in the building in which they live (unless it's a big building with something like four or more family units).

That's not the same thing though as saying that it's okay to be racist, or discriminatory, or that the law is condoning such behavior. But there is a point at which laws are no longer the appropriate way of dealing with a problem, and we have to give individuals the chance to make their own decisions about doing the right thing.
Steely Carver
The dreamer or the dream?
Join date: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 515
05-23-2009 12:52
"Critics have claimed that the term "Hate Speech" is a modern example of Newspeak, used to silence critics of social policies that have been poorly implemented in a rush to appear politically correct."

..."the use of speech codes in public universities in the United States is illegal, because public universities, as agents of the State, are Constitutionally restricted from regulating or penalizing speech based on content."

"Moreover, it is argued that the very concept of harassment is often misused and frequently cheapened, interpreting criticism (of a faith, opinion, or lifestyle) as something traumatic and harmful. Opponents of hate speech codes maintain that debate is essential to searching for the truth, and hate speech codes interfere with this mandate by silencing discussion from the very start (becoming censorship). They maintain that "harassment" should only be interpreted as a direct personal threat. They also argue that students should be confronted with perspectives they can find repulsive, as it will help strengthen their own arguments and ultimately achieve a more sturdy, well-rounded understanding of the issue."

"In the United States, there is a general consensus that free speech values take precedence over limiting the harm caused by verbal insult."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech
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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
05-23-2009 13:03
From: Qie Niangao
Ashamed to admit that I missed your post. You're a braver ferret than I.
Mustelids are fucking nuts.



Honey badger vs cobra.
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Argent Stonecutter - http://globalcausalityviolation.blogspot.com/

"And now I'm going to show you something really cool."

Skyhook Station - http://xrl.us/skyhook23
Coonspiracy Store - http://xrl.us/coonstore
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
05-23-2009 13:07
From: Ponsonby Low
How easily you dismiss the value of using logic to facilitate clear communication!
I did no such thing. I am dismissing the value of abusing formal logic to muddy the waters and impede clear communication, which is what you're doing, and you know you're doing it, and so does everyone else reading this.
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Argent Stonecutter - http://globalcausalityviolation.blogspot.com/

"And now I'm going to show you something really cool."

Skyhook Station - http://xrl.us/skyhook23
Coonspiracy Store - http://xrl.us/coonstore
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
05-23-2009 13:18
From: Melita Magic
Those are analogies, though, Argent. (And works of art, especially "Maus.";)
And so are many furries in Second life. Analogies, that is. And works of art, as well. What Uchi Desmoulins managed to do with plain old prims is art in any sense of the word.

From: someone
Also I believe to be 'racist' one must believe one's own race is superior,
Furries get that too.
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Argent Stonecutter - http://globalcausalityviolation.blogspot.com/

"And now I'm going to show you something really cool."

Skyhook Station - http://xrl.us/skyhook23
Coonspiracy Store - http://xrl.us/coonstore
Scylla Rhiadra
Gentle is Human
Join date: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 4,427
05-23-2009 13:18
From: Shane Roxan
She has had the proof found that she had the agenda, she claims it's not relevant... So show us where her stated aim on the blog and such is the false reason, because she is asking for something to be banned from SL while posting from the get go she has no agenda...


Sorry, just passing by, and thought I'd ask, with regard to my "hidden agenda" . . . where precisely in my pieces in the SLLU Fem Net blog do I call for the banning of anything? I DO, it is true, talk about LL's failure to enforce its own prohibitions, and about ARs . . . but I don't see anywhere here where I demand that RP of any sort be "banned."

In fact, my theme in the blog pieces is about the impact of language, and the way in which it can carry an implicit message of hate, regardless of what it is actually being applied to (see my remarks, for example, about the "forced sex" animations, where I object not to the animations themselves, but to their labeling as "forced";). Which is actually pretty much what I have been saying here . . .

You wouldn't mind throwing a few quotes my way to show that I am wrong about this, would you?

/me heads back to the couch and her steamy bodice-ripper . . .
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Scylla Rhiadra
Ponsonby Low
Unregistered User
Join date: 21 May 2008
Posts: 1,893
05-23-2009 13:23
From: Desmond Shang


A word about the burqa though, mentioned above.

Sure, there are intense cultural overtones, but before anyone carries it too far, consider: it's insanely nasty in that part of the world.

A brutal desert with intense heat, skin~wasting sandstorms, and flies that lay eggs in your skin. Burrowing tracks as larvae before they burst out to lay eggs in someone else. Who *wouldn't* want to wear a burqa most of the time outside in such an environment?


The men, apparently.
Scylla Rhiadra
Gentle is Human
Join date: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 4,427
05-23-2009 13:24
From: Ponsonby Low
The men, apparently.

ROFL!!!!!
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Scylla Rhiadra
Ponsonby Low
Unregistered User
Join date: 21 May 2008
Posts: 1,893
05-23-2009 13:39
From: Argent Stonecutter in post #750
....you know you're doing it, and so does everyone else reading this.



How did you find out what everyone reading your post knows?

(An impressive feat, indeed.)
Scylla Rhiadra
Gentle is Human
Join date: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 4,427
05-23-2009 13:40
Got bored of waiting . . . my bodice ripper awaits, you know . . . so I thought I'd just quote from the blog myself to make my point:

From: someone
"I recently sent in Abuse Reports concerning two sex animations for sale at a stall in a BDSM sim, the one called “Forced Missionary,” and the other “Forced Doggie Style.” Images associated with each showed a “couple” engaged in copulation employing the specified positions, the chief thing distinguishing these from other similar animations apparently being the fact that the male was, in each case, pinning the female down, or holding her in place, by her hair. . . .

Now, hair-pulling has never been my thing. To begin with, it hurts. And I think I may also have been traumatized by an incident in the second grade involving a particularly promising aspirant to juvenile delinquency by the name of Charlie McKendrick. However, such is my strength of will and mind that I can rise above this, and frankly declare that I really have no moral or ideological objections to coiffure-tugging during the act of sex. What I do, strenuously, object to is the deliberate association of this with rape, which is clearly what is intended by the names given to these two animations. It is an association which trivializes a very real and enormously destructive act all too common in our culture. Even a simulated rape – or, more accurately, a simulation that has been identified as such – has the potential to cause real pain to those who have been the victims real life sexual assault. Most importantly, perhaps, the dwindling of real life trauma into a “game” reinforces the notion that rape is acceptable, and even “fun.” Had these animations been differently named, my view of them might have prompted an involuntary shudder (shades of the execrable C. McKendrick), but I would not have sent in an abuse report. In essence, I was reporting the names of these animations, rather than the animations themselves, but that is a subtle distinction that would likely have escaped Linden Lab's enforcers."


What I say here about the animations in question applies to my view of RP. I am not objecting to it per se; I am object to the way in which it can communicate, essentially, a "hate" message.

So, again. Where is the evidence that I have called for bans on RP?
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Scylla Rhiadra
Ponsonby Low
Unregistered User
Join date: 21 May 2008
Posts: 1,893
05-23-2009 13:43
From: Scylla Rhiadra
Sorry, just passing by, and thought I'd ask, with regard to my "hidden agenda" . . . where precisely in my pieces in the SLLU Fem Net blog do I call for the banning of anything? ...

You wouldn't mind throwing a few quotes my way to show that I am wrong about this, would you?



/me attempts to make book on the odds of any of the "AGENDA!!!1!!!!" posters coming up with even ONE quote in support of their claims
Shane Roxan
Registered User
Join date: 16 May 2009
Posts: 187
05-23-2009 13:51
First post when the op AR's a set of poseballs that offended her sensibility.

In effect trying to get them banned.
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The scariest thing in the world: a lady chanting bunneh over and over in a super cheerful voice.... I lose too many outfits that way...
Damien1 Thorne
Registered User
Join date: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 4,877
05-23-2009 13:56
From: Scylla Rhiadra
Got bored of waiting . . . my bodice ripper awaits, you know . . . so I thought I'd just quote from the blog myself to make my point:



What I say here about the animations in question applies to my view of RP. I am not objecting to it per se; I am object to the way in which it can communicate, essentially, a "hate" message.

So, again. Where is the evidence that I have called for bans on RP?

You went to a sim that caters to things you already know you find objectionable to AR objects because you don't like the word "forced" and you have no agenda. Why did you even go to that sim?

I personally find dulcett to be extremely objectionable, so guess what, I don't go to those places and I have never accidently run across one.
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As we fade into the darkness...
MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
05-23-2009 14:00
You know I got to thinking about Rock..


You know it's low...

You take those vulnerable ladies who already have suffered at someone's hand and then treat them like Pavlov and dogs...

give the good doggy a treat for doing what you want, don't do what I want no treat...

How low do you got to sink man to do that?

And don't try the it's consensual, that's what the guy in the van says when asked if he forced the little girl to climb in for candy.

And don't try it's just pixels either mister, you already shot that defense down too!
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you!

9 out of 10 voices in my head don't like you... the 10th went to get the ammo
Tania Hutchinson
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jun 2008
Posts: 96
05-23-2009 14:05
From: someone

"I recently sent in Abuse Reports concerning two sex animations for sale at a stall in a BDSM sim, the one called “Forced Missionary,” and the other “Forced Doggie Style.” Images associated with each showed a “couple” engaged in copulation employing the specified positions, the chief thing distinguishing these from other similar animations apparently being the fact that the male was, in each case, pinning the female down, or holding her in place, by her hair. . . .

Oh, that gives me an idea for a new holodeck scene. Surl please. :p
Shane Roxan
Registered User
Join date: 16 May 2009
Posts: 187
05-23-2009 14:15
From: Ponsonby Low
Interesting reasoning.


Assistant D.A.: This new puppy mill is the fifth we've found this week. It was really horrendous. The dogs were being bred for fighting and treated with extreme sadism to make them aggressive, and those that didn't perform well were shot. Dogs considered no longer useful were being starved and...it was unbelievable. The disease, the sadism.

D.A.: Yes, but if we mention these dogs in our campaign to get a law against such puppy mills, we'll be using them as nothing but mascots.

Assistant D.A.: Obviously we can't mention them, then.

D.A.: I'm afraid not. The puppy mills must be allowed to operate unimpeaded, because it would be just plain WRONG to use the dead, starving and diseased dogs as mascots for our campaign.

Assistant D.A.: Yes, it would certainly be a failure of compassion if we mentioned them.


More like, well we got a woman that was brutally raped and beaten. We can use this to push an agenda...

Want to know the kicker : porn was not part of the crime, nor was it part of the reasons behind it. The boy was in the group the two sexist women were in, the same group that was going to use her as a mascot.

So how the hell was it logical to use her as a mascot for their social engineering?

Try again.
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The scariest thing in the world: a lady chanting bunneh over and over in a super cheerful voice.... I lose too many outfits that way...
Monalisa Robbiani
Registered User
Join date: 9 Jul 2007
Posts: 861
05-23-2009 14:33
From: Rock Vacirca


All the above are sick, practiced by sick people, and when their activities are curbed in RL they bring their sick 'games' into SL.


Calling a woman a "puppy" and treating women like "pets" is taking away the humanity of women, making them into animals, denying women to be persons with an ability to make their own decicisions in their lives. This is akin to slavery. This is SICK. ZOMG go banning that! //sarcasm off.

(No, I have nothing against pet play in SL, but please, but if you post opinions like yours to a public forum please use an alt unless you want to make people LOL at your profile.)
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Dances, animations, furniture for Loco Pocos Tiny Avatars.
Group dances, circle dances. Sculpted neko furniture. Prefabs, mediterranean styled beach houses.
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spinster Voom
Registered User
Join date: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 1,069
05-23-2009 14:34
I think much of the intense disagreement around this topic stems from a divide between those who see BDSM as a sexual orientation (in which case, we should be entitled to the same consideration as, for example, the gay community) and those who see it as a sort of optional extra to one's primary sexual orientation (in which case, we should be prepared to give it up if necessary so as not to frighten the horses - yes, I know, separate thread meant for a friday lol)

Anyway, I fall firmly into the first category. For me, BDSM is a sexual orientation - i.e. I have always found vanilla relationships ultimately unsatisfying, and finding online communities where I can be me (in SL and elsewhere) has felt like a homecoming and has facilitated the building of a satisfying RL relationship. I am not prepared to give this up easily.

Just where do women like me fit in your world view, OP?

Lord Sullivan, Ian Nider, Lindal kidd, Qie Niangao, Carl Metropolitan ... hurrah!

Rock, OP's of both threads, Chav (great alt name, well done!) ... Boo!

However, nobody is actually listening to each other anymore so it's probably time to leave this thread.
Scylla Rhiadra
Gentle is Human
Join date: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 4,427
05-23-2009 14:37
From: Shane Roxan
First post when the op AR's a set of poseballs that offended her sensibility.

In effect trying to get them banned.

Wow. Ummmm . . . that's really kind of lame, Shane. I was hoping for a manifesto of some sort, or, um, maybe even a sentence with the word "ban" in it . . . My "hidden agenda" is "implied" now, is it? Just so I am clear on this, my agenda HERE, in this thread, is "implied" by my authorship of another blog entry, where is ALSO just "implied"? Well, hell, I'm convinced.

If, as I think you must be, you are referring to the passage in the blog I quote above, allow me to make a few remarks . . .

1) It was an abuse report, which is by definition an attempt to execute enforcement of current prohibitions. It was not an attempt to have anything new banned.

2) If you read CAREFULLY what I actually said, there and above, you will see that I clearly state that my objections were not, in fact, to the animations at all, but to their names. In point of fact, with regard to those two particular animations, I personally would have no objections to them being actually used in public . . . so long as they are not labeled "forced," nor accompanied by public chat or anything else that mandated that they be interpreted as rape.

3) These were publicly advertised items. Interestingly, after about a 3 hour long chat with one of the owners of this dolcett sim, she agreed to restrict entrance to her dungeon to group members only. And I was absolutely cool with that. Again, this is about public representations of VAW. And I might note, too, that it is an example of dialogue at work . . .

I am well aware that many of you will object to even these limited reservations about the animations in question. That's fine; let's agree to disagree. But as evidence of my desire to ban RP? Pleeeeease . . .

Sooooo . . . another examples of my "agenda"? Perhaps you can quote something in which I actually SAY "I would like so-and-so banned"?

No?
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Scylla Rhiadra
Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 7,138
05-23-2009 14:41
From: Scylla Rhiadra
What I say here about the animations in question applies to my view of RP. I am not objecting to it per se; I am object to the way in which it can communicate, essentially, a "hate" message.

So, again. Where is the evidence that I have called for bans on RP?
Demanding censorship of poseball labels is no less odious than calling for censorship of roleplay. More petty, to be sure--effete, even, in its sterile abstraction--but every bit as repugnant.

Coincidentally (one presumes), LL has painted itself into the same shameful corner, suggesting that residents avoid Adult Content restrictions by merely changing the language they use in Search terms without changing the content itself.
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Scylla Rhiadra
Gentle is Human
Join date: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 4,427
05-23-2009 14:41
From: Damien1 Thorne
You went to a sim that caters to things you already know you find objectionable to AR objects because you don't like the word "forced" and you have no agenda. Why did you even go to that sim?

I personally find dulcett to be extremely objectionable, so guess what, I don't go to those places and I have never accidently run across one.

Yep, you're right Damien. I went to that sim knowing full well what I would find there. Hard not to, it was publicly advertised. And the materials, including a rather horrifying "debreaster," were mostly out there in the open, right next to and in plain sight of a nudist beach (which did NOT have any warnings about violent content, btw).

What does this have to do with my hidden "agenda" to ban rape RP?
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Scylla Rhiadra
Ceka Cianci
SuperPremiumExcaliburAcc#
Join date: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 4,489
05-23-2009 14:44
the ones that worry me are not the people in these forced sims or bdsm or whatever..

it's the ones that act as if they are the answers to everything..the overly kind trying to gain trust..people that look for women in a weakend state of mind
find them in a weak state and be the security..build the trust..
be the safe haven..

gain enough trust to get them on voice
then gain more trust to get them on cam
then before you know it they have your phone number
then you are getting calls like..oh you left your feed bucket by your horses..

the ones out there enjoying a kink are not hiding their kinks and most i have met are really good people..
you want the sicko's
it's the sneaky ones playing off that they are the best thing since ice water on a hot day.

that send's up my red flags..and most online rape cases have started in just this same patteren..but i guess people forget that..

all women are not weak..in fact some of us will sterilize a man in the blink of an eye ;)

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Scylla Rhiadra
Gentle is Human
Join date: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 4,427
05-23-2009 14:46
From: Qie Niangao
Demanding censorship of poseball labels is no less odious than calling for censorship of roleplay. More petty, to be sure--effete, even, in its sterile abstraction--but every bit as repugnant.

You may well find it "no less odious" than calling for censorship of roleplay, Qie . . . but please don't suggest that it is the SAME as calling for it. And that is what I have been accused of here, on a number of occasions.

BTW, I agree entirely with your comment about LL's problems with euphemisms that pretty things up. Let's just call a "rape" a "rape," shall we?

Nice (if rather sexist and homophobic) use of the word "effete" . . .

Still waiting for evidence of my "hidden agenda" . . .
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Scylla Rhiadra
Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
05-23-2009 14:51
From: Ponsonby Low
The men, apparently.


Hah!

I bet some of them do as kink, though...

laughs

* * * * *

Anyway, having seen where this thread is going, and what's being taken on by the original poster, it's clearly more about shock value and the need to champion a righteous cause for the sake of being righteous.

What could have been a great discussion has taken the final death spiral plunge toward a colossal waste of time. To my mind, all first impressions are now thoroughly confirmed.

If anyone wants to be an activist around here, they should at least have the guts to take on the core issues like Prok does. It's not about being liked, it's not even about being right all the time... it's about having some substance.

Last word is left to others for their personal satisfaction and posting pleasure. I'm going to ignore it like my serious discussion points were ignored.

Not a big deal, I'm just one guy. Who actually considered taking on some change around here, so this ending is rather puzzling. shrugs... whatever.

Bye, fluff thread; I won't be back.
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Steampunk Victorian, Well-Mannered Caledon!
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