Sad news Indeed

Since I started on SL. This certian venue has been one of the main venues for live music, many nights I spent at this venue and had good times there and I can honestly tell you that got me started on my love affair of second life live music..

My partner recently handed me a note from the owner of this venue and needless to say she is closing it on account of financial issues..

This is the way of things, venues offering live music closing because of lack of funding and such.. People struggling to pay tiers and pay musicians... All the while collecting nothing in tips (and if so very little) and for hobbies mostly because I do not talk to many who actually make a profit on SL, perhaps come out even but thats about it..

It is truely a sad thing to see so many live music venues go away because they just cant afford to pay the musicians and the tiers and their hosts....

Considering live music is a huge draw to people using second life and LL refusal to make using this service cost effective to maintain a hobby... I really dont know what to think about things as they are seeming... and I wonder why I keep an account. (no this is not a Im leaving forever post)

From what I hear people are not selling from their stores as they have before, (oh I am a sure a certain few of you are, but not everyone with a dream) the numbers on sl is decreasing.. Homestead (formally openspace) being abandoned, whole sims being sold and or abandoned.....

Meanwhile record profits for LL... I really don't get it.. I understand there is costs in running the service, paying employees etc.. but if the amount of money LL has made and published.... I am horrified.

I have friends aplenty who have left SL because of the costs and we dont as a world, have the disposable funds to support such a hobby as we once had...

I am worried now that the only ones who will be on SL will be the freebie gatherers and the freeloaders... No income from those... for anyone.

I really dont know what to think and I know I struggle with justifying the cost of tiers on my sims and if it is worth it.

I had stoped having shows at my venues because as I was not expecting to make hords of money I never got half of the costs back in tips.... Not that that is why I did it, I just wanted a nice different venue.. and I had it.

There are some amazing musicians out there and now so few venues who can afford them! Which in itself is SAD because if no one can pay them, they will leave......

I suppose this is a chance we take when we have a show...


Anyway, I am bummed right now I just needed to post..


sorry..

Agreed.

Things like this happening across the grid will hopefully prompt some to work on creating a better Live Music Business Model for Second Life - one that supports the venues along with the musicians. Until these fair models are developed and put into practice we can look forward to more notecards from Live Music Venues running out of cash.

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I am quite saddened to read this post, and understand completely.

What is most troubling is how LL is project a "residents of SL are happy and profiting" stance here: https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/land/blog/2009/05/26/good-news-homestead-pricing-to-be-grandfathered-if-purchased-before-july-1st-2009

"Some of you also told us that your businesses have improved over the past several months as the land market stabilized. A few ventured to say they have had some of their best months ever, recently. That's very encouraging because the numbers we look at indicate the economy in Second Life is indeed in good shape, especially when compared to the real world."

The spin doctoring continues and it is the residents themselves who suffer.

Indeed, there are those who ARE doing well, and enjoying themselves, and profiting, and feel stable etc. But how many really?

If this post is any indication, I would wager that most residents of SL are feeling the effects of both a global economic downturn and unstable grid all the more now.

I'm never one to proclaim that the sky is falling, and I believe there is some sort of future for SL, but we must be realistic in our expectations. And that realism is not quite what we all want in a virtual environment.

It is my hope that creativity with continue to abound and bless us all in SL, and that those of us with means to contribute in some way, do so, regardless of personal feelings towards LL.

Sad indeed.

But it got me thinking about Pub Quizzes (stick with this, it does have a point).

One of the main problems in SL is that you cannot have well-attended music events. You get more than 20-30 avatars in a sim, and it is like wading in mud, over 40 and some will start to crash.

A while ago I entered a SL/Opensim pub (style) quiz. The way it worked was that up to 20 people gathered in around 50 sims (so, around 1000 people). Images, film clips, sound clips etc, that were used for questions, were on a website, and in each sim there was a giant screen with that website on it. So, Question No. 5, look at the screen and name the famous actor. Question No. 6 listen to the following track, and name the band, etc

So, one solution to making gigs popular in SL is to use this technique, so the band and their music could be on a website, and folk attend the gig by going to sims where a screen with the relevant url has been set up on a prim.

Just a thought,

Rock

Paying artists to perform at a venue was a bad idea to begin with. Clubs don't turn a profit as it is, the vast majority of the tips go to the performers, that they also demand payment from the owner just to show up and play is...well, I'll leave the conclusion of that sentence as an exercise for the reader. (Waits for the artists and their agents to come streaming in to defend their predatory practices as they did in the events forum when this issue was raised previously.)

I can't see how anyone makes any money period from in-world live music. Even if all 40 ppl attending tipped $500L (very optimistic) for a 1 hour event, that's $20,000L or about $80. Divide that up between the club owner and the band, that's $40/hour. I seriously doubt you could hire a band for in RL for $40/hour. I doubt they'd even want to setup and tear down their equipment for that.

Ask the owners how many of them get a 50% cut of the tips, or even any cut at all, after paying the artist 5,000L or more just to show up. The answer would likely surprise you.

As for 20k for an hour's work, I don't think that's anything to sneeze at. Builders, texture makers, most of the content creators in SL have expenses they have to cover, programs they need to do their job that can cost hundreds if not thousands of dollars, yet I've don't see many of them charging RL rates for their work and if they are it's because they have RL clients willing to pay it. If we're going by that standard, SL is going to become a /lot/ more expensive for everyone involved.

ETA: The previous discussion about performer fees I was referring to might make for some long, yet interesting reading: /110/aa/289750/1.html

Many content creators have r/l jobs that quite handsomely pay their way - scratch the average scripter who's putting out good content and 2 times out of 3 they're pulling in $60K+/year as a software developer somewhere so whatever they do in SL is strictly for fun. Texture artists who aren't professional graphics artists or web developers at least can sell their work through XStreetSL or one of the texture shops and at least get some income off of that.

With performers, the $5K from the club is IT. Maybe once in a while someone will buy a CD from them, but there's really no mechanism to make money otherwise, and they are less likely to have a nice job supporting their hobby.

As for club owners, well, they understood, or should have understood if they did the research, that clubs are money pits. The economic model just isn't there.

Yes, Soen that's true. But this is about the Venue Owner 'scraping by'. Please note the Musician's posts about taking in $400 USD a month from SL /110/aa/289750/4.html (POST #100).
and one saying she is clearing $10,000 USD a year /327/8d/315501/1.html.
So we know the musicians get some sort of profit from the venue owners.

What the issue is now is how to turn the Live Performance Venue into something that can at least break even for a Venue Owner.

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Hobby. That's the keyword. We all have hobbies. Scripting in my hobby. I happen to make a little money from it. Not nearly what I'd be making if I were charging RL fees for my work. What exactly makes these performers so special that they believe they deserve to make a RL living in SL on their hobby? They can work IRL just like anyone else.

As for performers leeching off club owners until their supply of money dries up and they are forced to shut down their venue, wow, that's quite the mercenary perspective to have. Let me know how that works out longterm after all the venues have been bled dry or wised up and stopped paying upfront. Which, by your own argument, they should have understood would happen if they did the research. The economic model just isn't there...

The economic model isn't there because of the culture of freebies that exists in SL. Pay to listen to a live performer? Sacrilege. Go to a dance with a live DJ and pay a cover charge? Sacrilege. Your club owes me free entertainment. Until that economic model is taken out back and blown up with C-4 with extreme prejudice, clubs will always be money pits, but that doesn't mean people don't deserve to be compensated for their work playing music or whatever for a club. Even DJ's work hard, and we've got thousands of dollars invested in music. As a business venture you bet we should make a profit from our efforts. So should the clubs. But as long as the entertainment is free? You club owners lose. We need the people who come to these venues to pry their wallets open and pay up, plain and simple.

All in all, I totally understand where you are going with this, Tarina. This sentence just stood out to me because it made me scratch my head. Sure, hosting a club and doing live venues and such costs money - but I see no reason to leave SL if you can't do that? Nobody HAS to spend money in SL, after all.

DJs pay thousands of dollars for their music and the customers want it for free? Really? This is the path you wish to take? I know some club DJs, not a one of them pays a dime for their music. They download it off the net...for free. I'd be quite interested to hear what percentage of DJs in SL you think are actually paying for all the music they play.

All of our DJ's do. I know this for a fact. We once owned a live365 station too until it got to be too much in outlay for little to no return. Just because *you* think most of the DJ's in SL are not paying for their music it does not make it true.

Rock, I'm thinking Blue Mars is into being the next big thing in Virtual concerts due to their 1000 avatar per sim specs. Now if they get in bed with say Live Nation or TicketMaster, then it's a given.

The flipside, of course, is that just because *you* think most of them are paying, based on your DJs, doesn't make it true either.

I'll tell you straight up I don't know how many DJ's in SL actually have acquired the music they have legally. It's probably a hell of a lot fewer than I'd hope it would be. I do know, however, what's true of myself, and I make a very great determined effort to stay legal as much as possible. Royalty rates are one issue where I'm still falling short, but the economic model isn't there. I've talked about that quite a lot elsewhere.

Have I personally downloaded songs I haven't purchased? You bet I have. When I have a request to fill and I don't have the song, it's the best way to get it and get that request filled fast. But when I'm done with the show? I buy it. If it's for sale at all.

The economic model doesn't at all support such efforts. Something's got to give. Nor does it support the venue owners actually getting a return on their investment. We need to address that and make it pay for all involved. Which will not happen as long as SL is filled with a culture expecting entertainment for free.

clubs don't make money on events..

do they make them from best in black events or best in leather ect?
most i have seen the clubs are spending..

events were designed as fun and an investment in getting the time from avatars and the attention to your place of business..i don't remember them ever being anything more than an expense..

if your place was to get well known and helped launch entertainers i could see getting a cut ..but if it's the other way around it's pretty much most times an expense..

We have 4 DJ's who I also know in RL too, and although you don't Have to believe me, they are all paying for their music. We were all involved in a Project Island sim for the Rock group Journey and we vetted our DJs. I have a Platnium Record hanging in my house issued to my hubby and I for Journey's Revelation CD. You are free to come see a SL version in my club at any time. To quote Jovi, Have A Nice Day

what concern is it of a clubs where anyone gets their tools or how much it costs them?

oh this guy paid so much for his music so he deserves more than that guy that didn't?

oh this guy paid this much more for his guitar so i should pay him more than the one guy that got his as a gift from his dad..

it's pointless argument and has nothing to do with one dj being better than the other or someone able to play better than the other and really none of a clubs business..

The basic point is that the status quo doesn't work out for venue owners because many musicians insist on the fee and many fans don't want to pay for their entertainment, and don't realize the costs borne by the venue. The other part of this is that clubs keep coming because it's every newbie's dream to have their own, and provides an endless stream of places for musicians to make money. Some musicians will split tips, God bless them, but the rest? I sincerely hope they're feeling the pinch - I know of several clubs that stopped booking acts because the money wasn't there.

it comes down to who you are..if your club is doing well and can launch someone they should be giving part of the slit or someone else will fill the bill..if your place needs the attention then you are the one looking for the crowd more or less..

i worked at a club..we staffed over 12 dj's and did events from 8am slt till 10pm slt..

dj's were getting 150 per hour and kept their tips..

we also had dj's dying to get in there because we had on avg 80k true traffic..

in a position like that a dj is looking to get known..anyone paying a dj they never heard of anything more than that ..i feel sorry for them ..because dj's are not hard to come by..

now reverse it and you have a brand new club looking for a dj to get traffic and one walks in the door with a following that will draw to your business..be ready to pay..

same goes for musicians.. you pay your dues until you make it or give up..that's business..

That's all well and good, Ceka, but the bigs who have the clout to promote people aren't paying fees to musicians. Guess why not?

The venue owner is the one that has to bear all the costs for land and staff. They have to figure out a way to make it back from people who perceive the artist as the one who is starving. Even though the money made is not a lot in terms of real world compensation, it is the venue that suffers the most in this equation.

the bigs spend on entertainment because it is an expense..and it draws..
don't expect your entertainment to be the backbone of your business ..just the draw..if you have nothing there to show but the act then you have nothing to but the act..
you don't sell tickets like a stadium to a concert..if you have nothing to make money there then you are in the wrong business..

events and dj's and musicians are the draw..if you have nothing but that then you were never going to make any kind of money anyways..

our draw was our dj's and our income was our dancers and our rentals and our mall and industrial park..
the club made profit a few times but it was only a draw to the real business..which does very well actually..

Some musicians are making a little bit of money playing ($400.00 USD/month someone quoted; and there was the CNN(?) story about an SL musician who pulled $10,000.00 a year). Most venue owners are losing money.

The economic model suggests itself. The venue owners should drop out and let the musicians buy the venues.

Edit: Of course, as others have pointed out, the fact that the club itself is losing money isn't the last word; many clubs operate as a draw for malls, which are the real money-makers.