Sad news Indeed

Are they? Seems to me there are too many redundant slutware malls for many of them to be making tier.

Ever been to a live event in a redundant slutware mall? They make me feel sorry for the artist. And they don't make a marginal artist sound any better.

Having to pay for attractions by selling stuff (a losing battle these days, even if you have something worth buying) is a real problem for SL.

actually the real money makers most times for the clubs i've HM'd were land rentals or home rentals..but that takes money itself..

most clubs with no backing are going to be tip work pretty much most of the time..

it's pretty easy to spot out a newer club that doesn't have the backing..

those places shouldn't be spending top dollar money on entertainment anyways if they can't afford it..a few events can break the bank and a few events are not going to send them to the top..

same as entertainers shouldn't be expecting big dollars in those places..
even the rolling stones gave s free concert..it doesn't hurt to do tip work to help someone out..favors can sometimes be just as good as money..that or it may actually feel good to help someone out, like they may have been helped out when they started..

it would be neat i think to see a few places like the Apollo that become kind of launching pad clubs for entertainers..

really the only ones making money i bet with the clubs and entertainment are the ones that do it the smart way and work with each other..
both are trying to get known..just because one may be known a little more than the other doesn't mean they shouldn't work together to help each other..

Most of the clubs I frequent are run as labors of love / hobbies and not with any intent of making real money off them. Heck, my return on time invested making a single outfit is scary low. I do it because I want to.

those are the best kind =)

This is kinda funny... Why on earth would you expect people to pay for entertainment in SL? Especially a "Live" virtual music venue.. You can go see free live shows in RL at your local pubs... People ARE paying for their entertainment in SL anyway. They pay for computer upkeep and pay for their broadband. Expecting them to pay for "virtual" entertainment is pretty ridiculous. Thats why there is no economic model to support it and why there never will be in any virtual world. People pay a fortune just to have internet, they don't want to pay more when they get online. To many other free things to do on the net and in RL other than SL.

this is why i say it is an expense for a club..there are so many places out there to go that you pretty much have to have something they want there,and pretty much have to have them like it enough to want to show gratitude and tip to make money..

the draw is a good time and the competition is the many things people can do in sl..not other clubs or entertainers..
if there is no product there to buy or spend on then it's all tip jars and hope they have a good time...or bust

I agree. But the mentality (in some of the other posts here) there is going to be anything more than that is beyond wishful thinking. I think people forget that SL exploded because they let people in for FREE. If people have to pay to get into SL it would not be here today. That should be enough of an indicator people do not come here to spend significant amounts of money.

well i will say there are a lot that do spend good amounts of money in sl..the thing is it is not because they have to it's because they want to..

with that being the case you pretty much have to use the treat others as you would like to be treated rule..
clubs i have owned or HM'd did well because i payed attention to the do's and dont'ts and added a lot of respect and basic human nature in the mix..

give them a place they can enjoy if they want to enjoy..if they want to relax make room for that..if they want to let loose make that an option.if they want to be romantic give them a place for that..if they want to talk with the owner to say thank you or complain..make sure you give them the time of day..never be too busy for a guest..even if you have to IM them if you were not there..respect goes a long way with people rather than the cattle prod method of grab the money while they are here..

with the right approach and hard work to show customers you want to be their choice because you show them you know it is their choice..that does mean a lot to them..and you have a big return rate..

you don't need bots or camping or tricks or gimiks to have a club paying it's bills..

i think the most profitable club i was part owner in,we had i think 7 dancers at most..no events no dj..just a stream, it was open 4 hours a night..we had maybe 20 customers..it may have been more..that club we actually ended up getting two sims from the profits which we were turning one into a vip sim and the other we lived in plus it paid for the mainland lots it sat on..

we treated them right and with respect and made sure they knew they were special and they enjoyed the club and the island..i remember a few of them saying they felt like CEO's on a tropical vacation..one said he felt like one of those miami drug dealers sitting offshore on his yacht surrounded by his harem hahahahaha

we were not escorts or anything like that..just dancers with really great after parties in a paradise sim lol

a few other clubs spawned from that group but most are gone now i believe..

still it's rare to profit unless you have a good plan that can work if you don't have the big money to start out..
you defiantly have to have experience in sl's club industry to even have a chance i would think..it's nothing like RL that's for sure lol

With that type of logic, why pay for virtual hair, clothes, land, shoes, genitals or anything else under the virtual sun, right? I can go to a SL live event and tip the performer more than reasonably for less than what it would cost me for one drink in that same pub where the entertainment is "free." At least I think so, I don't drink anymore, but I'm guessing drinks are normally more than a couple bucks now, right?

I have more to say about this topic, but I'm too tired now. Maybe tomorrow.

*waves at Argus*

Argus speaks the truth and one of her DJs is her husband, and I'm guessing that she has seen his CD collection.

Yeah, I know that it's fun to say most SL DJ's pirate music off the net, but most DJ's I know do not do it much, if at all. I'll occasionally download something and if I like it will buy the album, but most of my tunes are ripped from CDs or bought from Amazon. It's sad and a bit crazy to think that my CD collection is probably worth more than my car...both our cars for that matter.

*waves back* and yes... the music library is well documented and duly noted on tax returns as well as royalty fees paid, subscriptions, etc etc etc... not to mention the gasp real LP's the software to convert, encode, decode, upload. lol It's Show Biz yanno..

plain and simple ? huh how this naw i pass and just listing to the walkman i got laying here you DJ` got nothing i wanna hear and to the one said pay for a show ? lol you jokeing right ?

Have you met the Jumpman?

.

i have read a few of his post.

Yes, this will definitely be one of the big draws. I am not sure yet when you request the resources for, say, 3000 avatars for a concert hall city, and X amount of scripts, and you get the quote for the resources to support that, whether you will charged for those resources 24/7 (even if you only plan to have concerts at the weekend, for example) or whether they will charge for resources actually consumed. Awaiting eagerly for the prices announcement.

Rock

A DJ or live performer who's playing music you don't want to hear won't keep you there either. Those who do want to hear their music will stay around. What are they providing to the club for doing so? Are they buying things from the club owners? Are they tipping the club? Are they supporting other vendors who are paying the club owner for shop space at their club? Are they paying cover charges? If the answers to all these are no, they're freeloaders, and that's the problem. Running a club costs money. Playing live music costs money. DJ'ing costs money.

You want people to spend the time and money doing these things and you said don't pay for a show ? lol you jokeing right ?

i've never seen a cover charge yet..and going to a club and being pounded with tip this guy tip that guy .hey tip the greatest dj in the world or this guy rocks..don't forget to tip..then if they don't they are freeloaders? lol

that's as backwards as it gets..
just like a designer or builder..talent is what will get someone making money..not how much they spent to be heard or seen..

not saying there is anything wrong with a cover charge..but if someone hasn't been heard of don't expect to many going in that night...not unless the club is known for having really good talent there..
but just because someone doesn't tip doesn't make them a freeloader..
they shouldn't be made to feel obligated to tip..they should be made to feel they want to tip..

Simply put, if a performer or DJ asks an amount of money which is not worth it, then don't ask him.
Hell, of course I wouldn't mind earning as much in SL for a bit of scripting as I would in RL. But that's just not how SL works. Of course, I don't script for free either, I've got expenses too, sacrificing fun time with friends and occasionally purchasing tools to do my job properly being 2 of them.

There's a huge area between asking RL profits and working for free, for SL it already means I'm *almost* working for free. If live artists and DJ's demand a fee that's closer to their RL fees, than they simply need a big hit with the reality stick, or get their own sim with their own club and perform there, to find out how things work out for them.

Let's make a simple comparison with the escorting bussiness. Don't laugh, the two are more alike than you'd think. Both are live performing, both require similar investments to start running (xcite attachments, good skins, good shapes and whatnot aren't free, y'know?). But for some reason a band or a DJ demands 5k upfront for one or two hours of playing, whether there's anyone interested or not, while an escort has to just hope some client comes along before there's even the slightest chance of making any, and probably won't make more than 4k a night if she's VERY lucky. Most escorts at the moment have a hard time making that amount in a WEEK, working every night, though..

So, the simple conclusion artists have to get real. They're NOT the be-all end-all. And I'd suggest venue owners to come up with some scheme to get some solid cut. Whether it's a tip-jar for the DJ that sends a share to them, or by selling funstuff and whatever and give the artist or DJ a cut of that while lowering the base amount of money they get, if they cost you more than what you earn from their presence, than either lower the costs, increase your income, or get rid of em, simple as that.

Bottom line here, you have a club for the love of music and ambiance you help create. As Daryl Hall said "Do It For Love"

I won't do it for money
I won't do it for pride
I won't do it to please somebody else
If it don't feel right
But I'll do it for you
And at least I'll try
I don't need any other reason
Than I feel it deep inside

I'll Do It For Love

I stopped booking people months ago because I just don't have the cash to keep doing it. Live music is ineffective in large part as a draw for businesses. Most people come and leave without shopping or otherwise looking around. You throw thousands of L away per show in the name of "marketing." The only thing it does is boost traffic numbers, and if you're a mall, that might be enough to keep vendors... but you're throwing thousands of L away daily for a low profit margin business.

I am not killing myself to service my customers for a net of nothing.

I'd think there would be 2 reasons a sim might employ live musicians (either for pay and/or tips, just like RL; in fact in RL many beginning musicians "pay to play" just for the publicity).

1. Increase sim traffic, perhaps some peripheral earnings from the mall or ad revenue from being a higher traffic sim.

2. For the sheer fun or love of it.

If SL is approached for sheer profit, most people will be disappointed. It isn't easy to eke out a RL living in SL from anything I have seen. Break even, or pocket money, maybe. So it should in the end be viewed as an entertainment expense/hobby, if one wants to feel more satisfied about time spent there.

Having events isn't likely to turn profit or much of one. And I don't believe in dinging guests for money. I think clubs should make their $ off malls or ads.

I don't see the connection. All those things are for your social life in SL. You want to look good for when you meet new people in SL and have different outfits and avatars for various role playing.... When I buy cloths I get to use those cloths over and over until the SL database gods decide to eat them. I can get hours and hours and hours of RP entertainment out of my $.50usd outfit.

Whats is your point? I would much rather spend real money for a RL event than real money for a SL event. I don't drink so no idea what drinks cost. Who said you had to drink?

Personally I don't like mushrooms and think they should be outlawed due to my personal preferences...ya dig?

My point is that I, and others, are willing to pay for a service, whether it be in SL or RL. What is important to some of us, may not be important to someone else. I love music. I buy CDs and go to live shows in RL to see the artists I love. I buy shirts at the shows to support the artists, especially if they are not big time stars.

Why ask why someone is willing to spend money on something? Maybe for some of us, music is more important than looking good for someone else in SL? Or at least AS important so that we're willing to tip them, and in my case, pay them to play at my venue....as Argus said, "for the love of it." I support their art in what little ways I can.

You find it odd that people pay for virtual entertainment, but not virtual goods? In RL, a pair of jeans last for months or years, and a good concert lasts a lifetime. I've been fortunate enough to hear live music in SL that lasts a lifetime as well. But that is because music means that much to me....much more than a pair of virtual shoes. It's all about priorities and personal preference, and we all are different. You take your shoes and let us have our music without being berated about it. I certainly don't begrudge your preference to shop. I like to as well.

There may be a number of "honest" DJs out there who legitimately pay for the music they play (though that's usually not the case for in-house club DJs); however, there is one very important detail I think most of us are forgetting about: Playing such music may still be illegal. Yes, even if you have legally purchased said songs, either from iTunes, Amazon, or have bought the CDs yourself, it is still illegal to play them in a public venue unless you have specifically purchased the licenses to do so. Streaming to a non-private parcel in SL constitutes public performance of said music.

Not that I want to see all of our DJs driven out of business because it costs too much to comply with copyright laws; but since you were all picking nits here, I figured I'd throw that out there.

All parcels are private All sims owners and land owners own private parcels. LL would need to pay ASCAP or BMI for their events, granted. I suggest you check ASCAP and BMI sites to see just what sort of license is needed.

Here's the link http://www.bmi.com/newmedia/entry/533605

It comes down to this. Is SL a website or not? Are sims really websites? This is a new frontier and the laws do not cover it.