Tolerance

Hi, Skell

The only conversation took place after I had been ejected (for accuracy's sake, I found out later that I wasn't banned). She must have assumed I had read and ignored their house rules. There was no drama, no heated argument, just an immediate ejection.

As you said - bad attitude towards a potential customer - I'll get over it though and take my L$ elsewhere

cheers
Surty

Wow. I'd say that was even worse than contacting you *before* ejecting you.

Thanks for the clarification (might want to edit your original post to state that, as many people here tend to read the OP, then a few replies, then reply themselves before getting to the end of the thread).

Good point - thanks, Skell
Surty

This seems to be more a case of lack of staff training than anything else.
It's always better to point out a rule in a friendly way and give someone the chance to comply.

Perhaps the owners need to be made aware that staff are giving potential customers a bad impression of the place, then they can do something about it.

--
Aes

You've never been to a place that has a dress code?

I have to agree with some of the posters, this apears to be more of a Trigger happy Hostess problem rather than a intollerance problem.

I work as a hostess at a womans venue and have to deal with guys porting in....when I see a guy I send him a polite IM asking him to leave as its female only Avatars... and 95% of the time I get a polite, "Woops! sorry.. I'm on my way"

Of the other 5% I would say Language is the biggest barrier to get them to understand, and occasionaly despite us waiting 2 or 3 minutes trying to explain to them (often with responces in very poor engish) we will eject them (not ban).

We have only had to eject and ban a few males over the life of the club and only do this when the person is an obvious griefer or repeatedly tries to TP back.


On Intolerance in SL, I've often wondered... how long a club in SL would last if it required its patrons to be "lighter than a tan" in skin colour.....

I've wondered that myself. Or a quota system. I mean, if one really wanted an authentic Tokyo experience, there really should be an overwhelming majority of east Asian avatars. So if you're the n+1 Caucasian avatar: Sorry, full-up of "your type."

I actually don't think that's necessarily reprehensible, albeit pretty strange. But how far along the "authenticity scale" would we go? An "Old South" sim with enforced separate seating areas based on skin color? Or the obvious reductio ad Godwin? At some point, "authenticity" gives way to "intolerance"--or at least to offensively bad taste.

That is, unless it were handled with extreme tact. I mean, I could imagine an "Old South" sim being a moving immersive experience *because* of that authenticity, and *because* the "intolerance" was part of the experience itself. But to work, the creators would need to have been acutely aware of what they were doing, and tremendously careful in how they communicate about it.

And I think that's what went wrong at Bogart's, but with much lower stakes: the staff was polite enough, I suppose, but evidently clueless about the potential sensitivity of the situation. They could have done worse, but also could have done much better.

I think the OP has the right attitude about it: In the big picture, it hardly matters. Bogart's is just a joint with a narrow range of avatars in a narrow range of clothing textures. In this case, the fact they wouldn't want me there pretty much ensures that what's there isn't anything I'd want.

Don't have to worry about Godwin so much, nazis stuff is pretty much been banned outright.

Your "Old South" idea sounds like a game Rockstar games would publish (think GTA).

Unless a sim is a strictly themed RP or residential area, I never really understood the concern over what avatar a customer is wearing, but it's your place, if you want to limit business be my guest. If the reverse were true and I came across a "Insert avatr type here" business, if I wanted to stay I'd dress the part. If not, I'd leave without a second thought. I do think the method of "informing" the OP was a bit harsh. A polite "I'm sorry, but we have a requirement for a certain appearance for our patrons, would at least make me consider the place, but to be summarily booted in such a manner would serve to put your place on my "never visit again and tell my friends list." As far as the place being on LL's Showcase. *shrugs*.

Not just badgers - I was asked to leave the same place a few weeks ago because I was wearing my best formal kilt (also Atholl jacket, waistcoat, fornal shirt and bowtie I should add). An appeal to the manager in chat solved that eventually with some support from visitors already there - the door staff seem to be overly officious.

I can't say I've ever met a Scot named Sven.

So if you're both a Scot and a badger, I imagine there's no way you're getting in this place.

Ohhhh...look who's back.

That's uncool, since a formal kilt IS basically just a tux with a kilt.

I should wear mine there and see what happens.

Not without a tie, you won't.

If I went to a club in RL and fell foul of some rule I did not previously know about and had no reasonable expectation of knowing in advance about it, then without first being asked politely to leave I was bodily picked up and thrown out of the door then Yes I would think definitely very poorly of that club and their methods.
I would not only not go back but I would tell all my friends how poor they are at customer service if the place is ever brought up in conversation.
On the other hand if I was asked politely to leave and was allowed to leave under my own steam with dignity then I would not think twice about it but would file the rule away mentally for next time unless it was something I felt was it unreasonable of them to ask it of me.

I would treat being ejected from a SL club akin to being thrown out in the above example. However if I was asked to leave a place in SL by someone of authority there then I would leave just as soon as I could just as I would in RL, there would be no need to eject me.

I would say most reasonable people in SL consider being ejected as being extremely rude and would only be warranted if they did not leave when you asked them to.

I would not expect Showcase to be "showcasing" socially orientated places that do not exhibit the basics of reasonable social skills. However I would not expect LL to know that it is happening necessarily either without anyone telling them. If LL get a lot of complaints about a Showcased place then I would expect them to delist that place.

Of course it could be just one or two employees making the whole place look bad and I would contact the sim owner to ask them about their policy (if I cared enough), as they may not be aware that this is happening and might want a chance to prevent it happening again.

I was thinking of testing out the place Surty described, except I don't need that kind of grief on my lunch break or in the limited time I get inworld. I have the perfect test avatar. As Iyoba I stand 4'8". I own several formal dresses. None of them are crinolines (I just hate crinolines. I prefer realistic straight skirt maxi dresses and Iyoba has a skirt butt so these things look good.) Iyoba also dyes her nappy hair every color of the rainbow and then some. She looks best in true red though emerald green is also exccellent. I could be conservative and go for straight brown. Then I have some updos that really do the do.

I'm thinking of putting her in a nice long gown with coordinating hair style and dress sandals and sending her in there. I'll photograph her first so all of you can see what the guard at the door sees. We'll see how long she lasts.

I mean ((Not giving these guys any publicity)) should accept a formally dressed, adult, human avi shouldn't they?

I'm the perfect case of why dress codes are dumb things.

My brother is a completely unreconstructed redneck (moderately well armed, too, but I think only for hunting) with uber libertarian views, but he is as empathetic as the next person or more so. Possibly more irritable with faux empathy that he accuses us liberals of having too much of.

They're believed to pass tuberculosis on to cattle, for one thing (although there is a growing body of opinion that suggests that infact the cattle pass it on to the badgers).

You have to walk past signs at the entrance and they're pretty clear, then you encounter the hostess, it's not hard.

As has been stated, the code is clear.

When I have hosted other events (not the one in question), some people just insist on being argumentative declaring that miniskirt, thigh highs and tall boots is formal wear, in defiance of me helpfully telling them in 3 languages and sending nice textures with pictures of what is and what is not acceptable.

I've had someone argue that they've just come in from SL work and no time to change and despite my helpfully suggesting that they just need to open their inventory and right click and wear something else, insist that they can't do this and i'm not talking noobs here.

I've even taken to rezzing a 4 sided object with the same pictures around the dancing AV's so it's clear in their view - subtle I am not when called for.

There comes a point where an ejection is the only option because as has been stated, non conformance detracts from the fun that others wish to experience when they have chosen to attend such an event/place.

Why would LL promote it? Cos it's a classy venue and that's that. Keep it that way.

Given that it's not difficult to change avatar, get over it, move on. I doubt he's banned, that's usually reserved for the persistent non-conformists or griefers.

Badgers...we don' need no steenking badgers! (Sorry, badger threads get that one...it's a requirement.)

I like badgers. Especially Virrginia's cute Victorian ones. I like tinies of all sorts, and furries. I love to go to their events (as a human, generally, or in costume if I must).

I also like the elegant atmosphere of a formal dance or an upscale club. I love seeing the men in tuxes, the women in dazzling evening wear.

Sometimes, I like to mix them, and go to a party where anything and anyone goes. Those are great fun...the Hangout can get like that, especially when Soji and Crazod are there.

Other times, I want a different atmosphere...one that needs a dress code to pull off.

Surty, you were treated badly, by not being IM'd and given a chance to leave voluntarily. But I can't say that the club is wrong in having a dress code. There's room in SL for ALL sorts of clubs and events.

Hi, Sassy,

as I said in earlier posts, the signs weren't at all clear to me, and the hostess said nothing before ejecting me.

My main question was: should the Lindens promote a place that itself is promoting intolerance? I got a useful response to that - a way of feeding my concern back to LL, and I've moved on

For the record, I don't go out looking for drama and this is only the second time I've been ejected from anywhere in over two years (the first was within my first week when I had no concept of private property - oops). This incident irritated me for the simple reason of being rude, where rudeness wasn't called for - especially as I was doing something that people new to SL might be expected to do; working my way through the Showcase.

After I had been ejected, I went to another, similarly themed club, and had no problems whatsoever - in fact I met someone nice and had a good chat for half an hour - I find that getting out of my usual boring workaday avatar is a good icebreaker

In hindsight I realise that the "tolerance" thread title might have set the wrong tone - "rudeness", or "showcase criteria" might have been better.

all the best,
Surty

Surty, you keep asking the same question; "Why is LL promoting a place that promotes intolerance?"

Just asking the question again is unlikely to solicit a different response than when you asked it the first time. Many of use disagree with your assumption that this place is promoting intolerance. They are simply enforcing a dress code. The general consensus has been that we agree that they were heavy handed in the manner in which they enforced their policy, but that does not mean that their policy is, in itself, wrong. You're right - it's not a question of tolerance it's a question of manners.

Hi Conan, just trying to keep things on thread.

I agree with you though, I've asked what I needed to ask, and received an answer or two that were useful - many thanks to those who responded,

Surty

Surty, here's my opinion on your oft-repeated question, should LL showcase areas that promote intolerance.

No, they should not. But a "humans only" policy is not intolerance, any more than a RP sim requiring you to wear period clothes or keep out-of-character discussions out of public chat is promoting intolerance. Bogart's is trying to create the atmosphere of a certain kind of mid-century jazz club which typically did not have anthropomorphic mammals wandering about in it. Faithful adherence to that atmosphere is part of what makes it the kind of special place the LL likes to showcase. It's not promoting intolerance to give one's place a theme and then require that visitors adhere to that theme.

It's been noted above that the execution of Bogart's policy was a bit out of whack; you should have been offered the opportunity to change or leave voluntarily before being ejected. But there is nothing wrong with the policy itself.