Bot Annihalation

But you made some statements about people who use bots - those are what I replied to.

I don't know what you mean about selling myself short though. Optimising for the new search won't help at all in the Places tab search (conversely, traffic helps very very little in the new search, and isn't worth having bots for). I use bots for the Places tab search, where it's necessary for business. I'm often #3 these days because I can't compete with the number of bots that a couple of competitors use, and it does make a difference in sales. I'm even considering buying an island because of it.

You are right no business of mine

If you are all ascardey of MoxZ, its none of my concern.

</character>

Let me put it this way, then I'll kindly step away from this thread.

Phil, your products are probably good, I appreciate that. Just be aware that you CAN have a certain level of success through that legitimate level of quality and service alone. Maybe not the success you would like to see, but success all the same.

Now about the bots. By using bots, and being quite proud of it, you're kinda lumping yourself in a crowd of sellers that aren't exactly hubs of praise. I repeat, I won't slight you own product. But your practices are ones that could raise an eyebrow to a potential customer and actually be a cause to a loss of sales that's invisible to you. If you had a head-count of people who TP to your store just to quickly leave without buying anything, you might run into a surprise.

But, I'm just Griefer McNoobie... Just putting my opinion out there. Planting an inflated traffic number by using bots is at worst false advertisement and an exploitation of resources.

<character> (^_^)

I was responding to your other post when I said that. You said you have no credibility here, and I said not to sell yourself short because in other areas, you do have credibility, then I named an area where you have credibility because you posted some information that was very helpful to shop owners.

I stand by the statement I made. You may be the exception, but you are lumping yourself in with people who are willing to cheat the syatem in order to provide a false picture of their traffic. If they are willing to do that, then I don't trust them with my business. I play the odds when I shop. I feel that the odds are against my finding what I want at a place where the owner uses bots. You might be the exception.

You were right that you can't have low quality prims. A prim is a prim. When they aren't lined up right, or the textures are screwed up or the scripts don't work or are poorly written, then the finished piece is low-quality. Again - I'm not saying this is you.

Oh, heh. I skip the stores that have stuff like ****A good store**&**** or &*(&*(&Meow***(*&* . . . ie, I skip the ones that add symbols before the store name.

I'd realised that I misunderstood which of my posts you were responding to, Trout. I thought I'd say nothing in case it got confusing

Phil is just one of many who

#1 use traffic-increasing techniques
#2 willing to admit it in public

it doesn't matter if you camp one avatar, or 10 or 20, they are still all bots and anyone who does this is in the same category as someone who uses 75 bots. and if you own the land (sim even) and your store (and others around you) are not affected by the presence of said bots at any count because no one can prove you are affecting the sim, then mind your own business.

and i hate to say it, but i've been to a few stores that our residents here own, and they have 1-2 bots too, yet they are screaming about others doing it. that's B.S.

geez, some of you are so judgemental and hypocritical that i almost hate coming here anymore.

That's true, of course, but since it's my RL livelihood, I prefer to compete as best I can, rather than settle for fewer sales, espacially as I'm not against the bot method in principle. I know that it can be used in ways that make the user experience worse, and I'm against that, but I don't use it that way. I use it to get top rankings, and if you reach my store, you'll find exactly what it says in my listings.

I wouldn't say that I'm "proud" of using bots - they are merely a business tool. I defend the way I use them, but that's nothing to do with being proud of anything.

I'm often in my store, and people don't tend to TP out quickly. But if some do, it's not because of bots. The store is at just over 200m in the sky - the bots are out of sight at 1000m.

On the other hand, if people who come to the store asnswered the question, "You found this place in search because I use traffic bots to get top rankings. Would you rather I hadn't used them and you wouldn't have found this place?" then, judging by the stack of comments that I get, I've no doubt that the great majority would prefer to have found the place, regardless of how they found it.

I already admitted to what I called "good bots" - bots used to display the product being sold, clothes and/or shapes.

I don't sell anything. I have no bots. I admitted to liking the use of a few bots that are just there to show products. I do not see that as B.S.

/me giggles insanely

I agree with Phil. You have to compete on a level playing field. If I use search to find a store, TP there and don't like the merchandise, I move on. When search returns 100+ listings, I am obviously going to tire before I get too far down the list, even if I do some editing beforehand. Phil needs to be near the top of the list, so he needs to do what he needs to do to get there.

In RL we call this doing business.

Actually it does matter 3Ring in a couple of ways other than affect their local sim.


----------------------
One

Those of us in Business who won't stoop to gaming the traffic system are hurt by those that do.

-------------------------

Two

Problems caused at Peak Concurrency Times.

It may unknown how much traffic and camping bots contribute to the issues with peak concurrency --- But it is well known that at peak concurrency SL 's performance as a whole , suffers.

If say I, as just a normal Avatar contribue X to the problems with peak Concurrency, but a Trafficbot runner because of their 20 trafficbots contributes 5X, then that trafficbot owner is 5 times as much a part of the problem as I am.

We all have to share the same Grid after all.

i'm not going to get into a long diatribe or debate. but i guess my response to the whole thing is that since bot camping is allowed by LL, it must be okay. and, as Phil says, if you want to compete in efforts to make sales to earn $L, then you do what you gotta do.

i don't go to places that have more than 8-10 dots in the area. period. so, as far as i'm concerned, they are only hurting themselves. but that's another discussion entirely.

Perhaps,

But that is also what they once said about AD farms, Banking, Gambling, Sexual Age-Play, and Self Replicating Objects.

i know. and i'm not really trying to play devils' advocate or argue you, but until LL makes a change in this category................ *shrugs*

You are right about that.

Criticism of specific Traffic bot runners does amount to a lot of noise that contributes very little to the issue.

Even when its Phil.

And if the day arrives that using bots is not allowed, Phil will have to stop using them, and compete in whatever new system emerges to inflate or improve one's search listing.

Phil's store is more like a big box store, not a niche shop. As such he needs to run a business model that reaches the largest mass of potential customers for his product. In this case, I would expect that to be those with limited land and resources, and perhaps less expertise in all things SL that those that post to this forum demonstrate.

Still ... Phil's competitors who wont stoop to using Trafficbots are hurt financially by his use of them.

There is an Ethical component to the conscious decision to game the traffic system

People who are so new to Second Life that they do not remember the time before the Widespread IP theft, Trafficbots, Campingbots, or even Camping may not as easily appreciate how much business ethics in Second Life seem to have changed.

then Collette, i guess it could all be viewed as less a matter of business practice, and more one of character.

i'm not certain that's fair in a dog-eat-dog world. no one is going to give anything to anyone. you gotta go get it if you want it. scruples are not unfair in a war... at least, not that i've seen in my lifetime.

Agreed, he's also adding to the problem. The merit of his work (and it may be that's he's got the best stuff in SL) is what should drive his traffic.

By adding bots to the equation he'll never know how good his work is. The only people he is competing against are other bot runners.

I don't think LL will put up with this for much longer, they seriously care about the new user experience, and presenting new users with a gamed search is not doing them any favors.

It stifles new creators, and annoys shoppers. Past experience with google tells me that those who game the system will find themselves out of the system.

When LL say that camping/bots is not allowed any more, then people who use them will stop using them, but until they do that, they are perfectly valid business tools.

perfectly permissible anyway.

And if I stopped using them, I would be financially hurt. It's business, and it's time that some people realised that SL isn't what it used to be - it has moved on since 'the good old days'. For some people, it's a business and no longer a hobby. Or should I reduce my income just because some people perfer not to use bots? I think some realism is in order.

There isn't a problem. If bots are used well, there isn't a problem. Why not have a walk around the sim where my store is and see if my bots make it laggy for you. If you can find a problem, fair enough, but there isn't one.

[added]
I honestly think that people imagine things. For instance, someone turns up at a store and finds a lot of lag. They spot a load of bots or campers, and attribute the lag to those. The chances are great that the cause is something completely different; i.e. take the bots/campers out of the sim and see if the lag is less. Some people have programmed themselves to believe things when they really have no idea, and they jump to wrong conclusions.

Because i don't support the camp you are in Phil. I will never ever knowingly buy your stuff because of the stance you have taken.

If I find friends who want your stuff, I will let them know you use bots to game the search, and suggest they support others who have more moral fiber.

Nothing personal.