The truth about Shapes

and get a Trout Rating!

Well, I've been working on Inigo these past few days and I've come up with a couple of good shapes, one a mimic of one of Morgaines which I found utterly irresistable and then a shape for a sister-skin of Morgaine's that just didn't look right with anything I'd already got. Hours and hours but it is *the* shape!!

I support Joannahs point about training. It's very existance proves the point. I also support the middle of the road view that with time and practice, many can make acceptable, maybe even very good shapes .... given time.
Like I said, hours and hours ..

And just for the record, Joannah makes the sexiest freckles in SecondLife, bar none!

Yes. People can't usually draw and paint well without practise. Even top artists often need to search for a line before commiting to it.

There aren't "correct" proportions - not in an exact way. Milla's post makes that clear.

Look at it another way. Suppose there's an av with arms and hands down to its knees, do you think people in general would notice that the arms and hands are wrong? What if they only went down to the hips? Would people in general notice that they are wrong? Those are extremes, of course, and most people would be able adjust them so that they looked more realistic. Different people might choose different lengths, but which length is "correct" for the av? There isn't a correct length. There is a correct range of lengths though, and most people would be able to adjust the lengths into the correct range. I still maintain that people in general know roughly what proportions are good.

Ya know...speaking of arms...... they are a pain in the ass.

What a have noticed that drives me a little batty with arms is that when the avatar is in the standard 'edit' psotion and you adjust the sliders.....the arms will actually look longer than they do once the avatar is in a more natural psoition.....and....when using certain poses limbs which normally look proprtionate become over extended and silly looking.

Often times when I am taking photos in SL I will have to adjust the arm or leg lengthe so a bent arm or leg doesn't look absurdly long......sort of frustrating.

IRL I know folks who have unusually long arms (my cousin, she can never find jackets that fit right lol) and others who have slightly short arms. None of their arms, however, change lengthe when bent at the elbow!

I just set everything at 50 and work from there...

One of my alts sells shapes, mostly because it's something my main doesn't do and there isn't a massive learning curve to climb (is that a mixed metaphor?). They're... err I *think* 200L and she's only sold a couple since she placed them out for sale.

Chav's shape is a variant of one I was given on day I rezzed, and it's changed a lot over time. Making the height less towering, making the head an average size to fit hairs, accidentally becoming Asian... I've bought shapes but the No Mod ones annoy me (much as I understand the reason shapes are sold no-mod). Current Chav borrows a few settings from a mod shape I got free with my usual skin, so yes, people can and do make a note of the numbers. Recently I've tried to make it a *bit* more "cartoony" though I like to think that the overall shape's been fairly realistic for a while now.

Yes it's not reliant on external applications, but how many of us could be bothered to turn out a dozen or so shapes we'll never wear ourselves? And some of the ones I've bought just look wrong when you get them on.

keep in mind that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. while the majority might find a particular shape "perfect", there will always be a minority that prefer a different body part featured.

Maybe you are not ..

But part of a shape maker's job often includes emulating a certain look, including those of famous people.

Some of us will assist people in making their AV look like their RL selves. Or a model (I've been asked to do BDSM spank queens, Marilyn Manson's ex girlfriend, porn stars, actresses ..)

Dammit Colette, you promised you wouldn't tell!!!!

LOL Never thought of doing BDSM queens.


I just did Illeana Douglas today cause I just always thought she had such a unique beauty. Part of my problem is I just get bored if I don't have a project to do in world... so I like the challenge of coming up with new looks. One of these days (after my RL move) I'll re-do my shop and put out the 35 some odd shapes I have piled up in inventory (besides the ones in my shop now) and yeah...they will be mod. Actually I have some ideas about how to make the whole process more interesting...but, hehe, I'm not giving away any secrets just yet.

And what about study of proportions, then? If we all naturally possess this knowledge, why is so many people wasting time and money taking lessons on this very subject that teaches them nothing they don't know or can't see already?


We're back to square one then, because i'm afraid so far you offered literally nothing to support this point of view of yours. You believe the accurate knowledge of human proportions is inherent in everyone and people who indeed walk around with arms of their AVs ending around their hips (and there's quite a few of them in SL) do so because for some reason they choose to even though perfectly aware how grotesque it makes them look ... i believe they walk this way because --lacking the sense of correct range of proportions-- they honestly don't see anything wrong about their looks. I think Ockham's razor supports my approach but since there's only so many ways to rephrase something and there doesn't seem to be anything new that can be added to the argument, i'm about to drop it.

The only time I ever used a purchased shape was when I went to a costume party and wanted to be two inches tall as a fairie.

I know I don't know a lot about it, but I was UNABLE to do this at all with the in SL sliders. I hear about "Folding yourself up" which I just could not figure out. Otherwise I still use my own. It wasn't even the money for me...I saw a shape, more than a skin, as someone's interpretation of what I should look like. As avatars are in a way a "Self portrait" or an expression from inside us (the creator), it made sense. You don't have to feel this way, but if it didn't matter much, why bother with anything? Hehe.
Some people just don't want to put the effort into into it, and that's their choice.

There's no point in discussing why anatomical proportions are studied by a few people. Why a few people study it is their business. If you think that the average person can't tell if someones arms are unusually long or unusually short, for example, just based on their whole life's experience of seeing real people, then you think it. I say you are wrong, but you are free to think it.

That's right, and neither have you. But I will offer something - everyone's experience of seeing real people, with real porportions, through their whole lives.

I didn't say that. I said that there is no such thing as accurate proportions. E.g there is no "correct" length of arms with hands for a given body. What we all have is knowledge of approximate porportions, which is gained by the experience of seeing people though our whole lives. Normal life is the teacher, and we have all been taught by it.

That can't be done via the sliders, or not completely. To make Tinies, the included shape shrinks your av as small as possible with the sliders, and then an AO twists it into a compact pretzel. For micro-avatars, something similar happens, but your avatar is actually put inside an invisiprim box and shoved underground.

Welcome to debates with Phil. They are are fruitless as teaching a pig to sing. When the emperor says he is wearing his new red doublet, there is really no amount of evidence you can produce to change his mind.

*Any* evidence would be useful

What she is saying is that the average person is unable to know whether or not an avatar's proportions are reasonable. It's her opinion, that's all. She is saying that most of us are unable to know whether or not an av's shape looks good, and that only a few people are able to know. That's my paraphrase, but it's pretty accurate, and I think that most people would disagree with it, including most of the posters in this thread, judging by the posts.

The very idea that most of us are unable to adjust the length of a neck until it looks about right, is way off. We ALL have a great deal of experience in this very subject - it's called life

Isn't all Art subjective?

Can't anyone take a couple of cans of paint and produce a Jackson Pollock?

Shouldn't anyone with the life experience of seeing other human forms be able to recreate that shape thru ANY artistic medium, using the same tools that any artist would use?

But the truth is, some folks are just better at doing certain things then other people. That's the place where your "logic" is flawed, Phil. In fact, its the entire principle behind the SL economy. In a world where you can create anything you want, some people are just going to be better at it then you.

Knowing what an average human shape should look like is Knowledge. Being able to convey that Knowledge in a pleasing form would be Art.

No no no no no. You are mistaking what's being discussed here. We are not talking about recreating anything, or producing works of art. All we are talking about is taking the default shape, using sliders to adjust it, and ending up with a reasonably good shape. E.g. thicken/thin the waist, adjust the ass, adjust the muscles, etc. It doesn't need anatomical study, or a gifted eye, to do that. We all know what humans look like, and we can all see when something looks a bit wrongly proportioned for the rest of the body. We all have the experience of life to be able to recognise reasonable proportions in the human figure.

But I am.

In my life experience I have seen people of a variety of shapes:



Which one of these is "right"?

Can you make me an avatar that looks like the one second from the left? What if I want her to look like the one on the right side? Can you do that? You will notice that all of their proportions are vastly different... you know, like real people tend to be.

Personally, I think a well made avatar shape is Art. But then, I tend to think of the human body that way too. But maybe only people with "gifted eyes" think that way.

Some people make shapes better then other people. Do you think that's not true? If it's not true, why do I see so many badly shaped avatars in the world? If it is true, why is it wrong for me to pay someone who does a better job of making an avatar shape then me?

QFT, QED and any other acronym beginning with Q that suggests I totally agree with what you've said.

well said

some people will not see it as an artform, or that it does take skill to move those little sliders to mak a generally pleasing shape

others see it that way

I see it that way, I could not care any less who doesn't see it that way, if they choose to think that anyone can do it, then why do they not do it themselves (obviously it is a way to make some lindens in SL)

Pie,
What, no models in a Rubens or Renoir style?

May no be work place safe so cut, paste at your descretition.
http://art-quarter.com/beck/joe/pablo/1/2/rubens58.jpg
http://art-quarter.com/beck/joe/pablo/1/2/renoir-58.jpg

It's not about what is right, it's about what is blatantly wrong. All those girls are perfectly balanced and pleasing to the eye, you could have added larger women and in most cases the balance would be good, in SL some people produce shapes which is just wrong.

Okay, I gotta ask... Do they have a specific look?

That's a nice red jacket you have there.

ya know... that makes me think about society and how much it has changed

it used to be that the larger woman was considered to be sexy, with lots of curves and soft to the touch, voluptuous would be a good word

now... all you see depicting sexy is the rail thin tall boyish figured women...

what ever happened to curves!!

(and yes I am one of the BBW of this world, I have curves, and am proud of them!)

Maybe think 'frank frazetta', now here's another problem I guess, his females are anatomically incorrect, but artistically pleasing to the eye.

http://frankfrazetta.org/vampirella0001.php