The truth about Shapes

I still think its somewhat silly.

But hey!! We can't all be brain surgeons, Lawyers, Doctors & Rocket Scientists!!

Some folks have a knack for it, others dont. No biggy.

Here's a lil' helpful hint: Study Human Face & Body Proportions. How big are eyes compared to the width of the nose its widest point. How do ears sit on the side of the head, etc.

Then spend lots of time playing with sliders.

I found already a shop with that kind of demos, I was just searching some new bodies and faces for my alt... but it was no problem to me because I use to read the notecards... but why don't you do a demo like the new hair' demos from Minnu? The head is surrounded by a glass cube...

I confess that after a couple of months in SL I bought a shape at Kdmad City, I still use it till now only with some little changes on body size and now I'm thinking on buying another one at the same place for my RL-brother because his body is well proporcioned but his face (and I like to help him as if he was my alt because after all he's my RL-brother!) well, is not at all.

This shape story is giving me an headache: now I need a body to my alt and a face to my RL-brother (one is female and the other is male lolol)

Why do I buy those 1k shapes? well, for two reasons, I love the faces and bodies, and I'm too lazy to make a natural shape (and I really don't have those capabilities lol)

ok here is my take and remember I havent had my soda this morning so bear with me lol.

I bought a shape and skin because I liked it.

I do not have the patience to do it myself. I am learning the patience on other stuff but trust me you dont want to be around me when I am frustrated lol. Heck I dont want to be around me when I am.

And I dont want to hear well you havent tried. No one knows if I have or not but will let you know I have. In the end to save frustration and to enjoy 2L without that said frustration was well worth it to me. Yes I did play with the sliders a bit. Made a few parts well smaller But that is the extent of it. I am happy with myself the way I am and look. Some might not like the way I look but oh well. Get to know me, the person behind the shape and skin.

Personally for me I would rather spend my time with my sweetie (hi honey!) and exploring and what not. Yes I do build things, they look great to me but others may not think so. I love to play with textures too but same thing some may not like them lol.

Ok I guess I have rambled long enough. Now I have to get ready for work grumble grumble.

But basically it boils down to the individual and what their wants and needs are.

Have a good day all!

I haven't spent too much time in Second Life since joing a few months ago, but when I have, I've been constatntly fiddling with my shape. There is scarce information that I can find on shape making. Is there a tutorial anywhere?

I am finding the proportions hard to gauge. Everything seems oversized. I went to one of those height measurement things and it told me I was 6'3 or something ridiculous. Is there a guide anywhere with some general standard numbers to use as a starting point?

Since I'm trying to figure out how second Life works, I finally decided to come to the forum here despite the policy of having to give up a credit card number to do so.It seems backwards to me. Wouldn't you want people to be able to learn about the game to encourage them to want to pay into it?

Even better, those height detectors aren't accurate...they tell me my av is 6'4", but if I measure her versus a prim, it comes out to 6'11". That said, I don't think it matters. There are people in SL who try for 'realistic' heights, but I tend to compare Ann more against the scale of the world and the other avs I encounter. Using that reference, she's a bit tall, but not ridiculously so.

Also, I'm too lazy to do all the adjustments to her shape that I'd need to do to keep her proportions the same relative to a shorter height.

Thank you so much, Colette - a clear and concise answer that's cleared up something that's mystified me for ages!

I guess it does depend what you mean by skill. I'm just not very good at building - it's why I bought furniture from your store, Phil, rather than making it myself! I very much doubt I could replicate it myself even if I spent days doing it. Some people have a better eye for how things fit together - I don't.

Avatar shapes are one of those things that I have had in a list of "Ooh, they pay for that?" kind of items. I reeeeealy have to agree with Colette though. In one post she described it as offering a service. That makes sense. Selling a shape is a service, not an item. (^_^)

My main shape is modified from a freebie I found on my second day in SL. I spent some time here and there to avoid looking like the "just another clone" loli shapes. (>_< I hope I did well, mostly in the face. I also found a full perms skin texture in a freebie vendor box that I've been playing with (removing shadows and such). So my main look was done at no expense. (^_^)



After I was happy I decided to make an older version of 'myself'... I pulled a default avatar from the library, kept my skin on, and discovered.... 4 HOURS LATER!!! ... that it takes a lot of effort to avoid looking like a bridge troll. (x.x) In the end, I'm really happy with the results and people have already commented that my bigger shape looks like my main's older sister. So... I made her my alt and we share time in world once in a while. (^_^)

Considering I made the shape before I even learned how to change inventory item names.... I'm quite proud. (^_^)y



That said.... 4 HOURS!!!! (=_=) So, yeah, there is the saying "Time is money" and when you pay for a shape, you're paying for someone else who took time out of thier life for a creative outlet that you yourself are just not willing to dive into. (^_^) ... I, myself, have even had and taken offers to buy my biggie shape. If I were less lazy and chatty, I could see myself making monies doing this. (^_^)y

That's nice to know, Damien Depending on what you bought, you could be sitting on my RL sofa leather

I guess it does come down to what each of us understands by 'skill'. Certainly, we can all gain skills by spending time learning them, and some will learn some things more quickly that others, because we each have a different set of natural aptitudes. For this thread, I've understood the word to mean something that some people have, but many people could never have, perhaps because they don't have an aptitude for it. With something like scripting (programming), I would agree that many people couldn't do it so well - not because they couldn't learn the programming language, but because it requires creative imagination, but with some things, such as furniture and shapes, it requires 'will' rather than 'skill' - imo. The 'skills' for those are learned very easily, especially the skills to make shapes (sliders). What's required then is the will to spend time doing it. Those who spend more time become better at it, that's all.

Hmmm.... Ever play the guitar or the piano? There's only so many piano keys and only so many notes.....yet the possibilities to create a melody on those instruments are nearly endless. Anyone can 'learn' to play.......but it's quite screamingly clear that not everyone has the 'skill' to make beautiful music. However, I will point out that my cat can open and close a door and she doesn't do it any less effectively than I do it....so that particular example of skill is rather poor.
And...I don't agree that making furniture is necessarily simple either. I've attempted a few times and the tedius processes frustrate me...I know what needs to be done....but I'm just not that good at doing it. I also know photoshop pretty dam well and IRL I'm an artist but I could more easily paint a portrait on canvas than I can make a skin in photoshop. I do not have the talent for that. I have the 'skills' because indeed I undertsand the processes....but there's a difference between even skill and 'talent'. The human brain and subsequent abilities that are born of it are way too complicated (and in my way of thinking amazing) to just pass something off a 'mere' skill. We could nitpick this subject all night....but I'm gonna cut riiiight to the prime example..... sex is a pretty basic human ability... only so many parts to work with....not complicated on the whole.....and most living creatures do it..... doesn't mean everyone is good at it though, does it! *smirk*

oh yeah...I forgot... one of mine....

Erm...yes...and the organ with bass pedals, and the saxaphone, and the clarinet, and the 5-string banjo - and the voice - I was a professional singer/instrumentalist for some years.

Coincidentally, I wrote something very similar in the previous post, but I deleted it before posting. Since you bring it up, I'll write it again.... Some people can sing in tune, but they can't 'use' the tune to create a good piece of singing. It can be learned to some extent, but it's more in the realms of 'talent' than 'skill'. It could be argued that it takes a natural talent to mould the default shape into a good shape, even though it doesn't take any skill to move the sliders, other than knowing where the sliders are. I wouldn't agree with that argument though.

Building is more about what might be called "artistic aptitude" than skill. I'm trying to avoid using the word "talent" because that also suggests that it's god-given and out-of-control, and I don't know that that applies here - it might do, it might not. What I do know is that people that have it, often do not notice that they have it, and cannot imagine what it would be like not to.

Basically it's not about placing prims and texturing them but about being able to decide where each prim should go and what texture it should have, and being able to sort through the bewildering number of textures available on SL to find one that actually looks good and fits with the build. It's a classic problem I've had when asking people about building, they'll go into a great deal of detail about how to create an arch in a building, and I have to say well yes, I know how to do that, but how did you decide to have an archway there as opposed to, say, 2 foot to the left of where it is now?

It's basically because of the problem with this that I wound up giving up on building, which I really kind of regret, but with the way things have developed it doesn't matter now anyway.

Another point is that everyone has a good eye for a shape - else how do they choose a shape at all? It doesn't mean that everyone would think that a particular shape is good. In fact, I am sure that no end of opinions on tweaked improvements could accompany any existing shape. For instance, the shape in Milla's pic needs a slightly thicker waist - for me! Am I right, or is Milla right? Obviouly we are both right, because whether or not a shape is good is wholly subjective.

The idea of shapemakers performing a service for those who don't think they can do it themselves, or prefer not to do it themselves, is a good one.

I should add one other thing I've noticed: popularity of these things seems to vary across different cultures.

For example, if you visit the Japan sims, there are LOTS of no-modify shapes on sale and it seems that buying a shape is pretty much standard practice there. Many of the skins they sell are designed to fit onto those same shapes (although a good 60%+ of Japanese female avies I've met were using Roca skins).

Yup....anyone can indeed figure out how to move a slider back and forth.....but that doesn't mean they have the eye for the completed work. The argument stands in the very fact that people buy shapes. I would agree whole heartedly that anyone can learn where the sliders are.

I actually was wondering about you Phil....and my guess was that you were either a very gifted person who simply cannot see that others really don't posess the skills that you yourself find so simple. I understand that.....I know a lot of artists and musicians with the same kind of intolorance or arrogence, if you will. My other guess was that perhaps you have absolutely no eye for a making a good shape and simply don't realize it, therefor assuming the whole thing is simple. I find no fault in either possibility....but it does not change my views.

Example... my older brother is gifted...very. He's a musician and an artist who can draw a portrait in pencil sketch and make it look exactly like the person he's drawing.. and he makes what he does look soooo easy. It is, for him. He had a game on his laptop where in one could create their own avatars. He showed me how he had made these adorabe female golf players lol but he was having trouble with the faces...... couldn't quite get the looks he wanted. He handed it off to me and said "here Cher, you're good at this, do the faces but don't touch the asses I got em perfect!" LMAO So....it's really just about having an eye for it. I'm no way as gifted as my brother....I can't draw a portrait like he can or play an instrument and ya definitely don't want to hear me sing lol But I can write and I can photograph and I can draw to some degree......and I can make faces with a 3d program. I don't know why it comes easy to me... but I certainly don't assume that it's easy for everyone. Incidentally....the game my brother had, had a nearly indentical slider system as SL for making avatars. It was pretty cool.... except the hair...the hair sucked. lol

I have a female shape I have given out several times for this very same reason. It is much easier to start with a classicly proportioned shape and adjust how you want it. Also. since skin shading can affect the looks, what skin you have can and will break the precieved proportions, thus they will need adjusting anyway.

Anyway, I'll send you the shape when I can. I hope it helps.

My wife has shown an interest in trying sl. Could you send me one of those starter shapes also? I would have no idea how to help her with a female av.

Don't be afraid of the default AVs that already exist in the library. I find it interesting how much the end result is and isn't affected by what you start with. Even changing one slider can make the difference between cloned and original. (^_^)y

If you mean an eye for recognising a good shape or a poor shape, then yes - everyone does have such an eye. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to choose a shape. On the other hand, if you mean an eye for knowing what the finished work is that you want to achieve, and sliding sliders to create it, as in your brother's drawings, then no, but I don't think this thread is about that.

I disagree. In this thread, there have been various stated reasons why people buy shapes, and the reasons tend to be about not having the will to make the shapes - not because they don't know how to make good ones.

I'm not a very gifted person at all. I always considered myself to be a good singer, but not to have a good voice. Fortunately, some people liked my voice, so I did ok. Instrumentally, I am competent, but that's all - although I am the best organ bass pedal player I ever saw - even fellow musicians marvelled at it

All I have been trying to say about shapes is that it doesn't take any skill to use the sliders, and that it doesn't take any skill to make good shapes, because good shapes are in the eye of the beholder - wholly subjective. What it does take is the will to spend time doing it, and that is what many people don't have.

Example:
Your brother starts with a blank sheet of paper and creates a very good drawing. That takes the talent of having an eye for knowing where to put the pencil marks on the paper, and the more he does it, the better he will become at it. Shapes are not like that. You don't start with a blank sheet of paper - you start with a finished shape. Then you tweak it with the sliders until you have a body of the proprtions that you want. If you're new, you play with the sliders to see what effects they have on the body. If you're not new, you know what the various effects are, so you reach your desired body shape much more quickly. Then you work on the face, which is just the same as the body except that it takes more time to get it to how you want it. It's not a skill that only some people have. They are just sliders that anyone can use, and anyone can make good shapes if they have the will to do it. It's nothing like starting a drawing with a blank sheet of paper, and using the sliders is nothing like putting pencil marks on the paper.

Oh, Thank You, that's very nice of you. I haven't even begun to think of skins, I'm using a new residents special for now. Gotta build the house before you can paint it.

It isn't quite as simple as that, though. I can't remember exactly how many sliders there are but according to some of the SL literature there are 150. Then suppose that each has values from 1 to 50 - I know many of them have more than that. So there are 50^150 possible shapes. 50^150 is a large number! In fact, if we loaded your brother's pencil sketch into a scanner which could detect 8 different levels of darkness and had a resolution of 1024x768, there would actually be more possible shapes than possible pencil sketches the scanner could differentiate.

I think the possible numeric combinations is a red herring. Say you have a shape that has the value 48 for something. Would it really make any difference if it were 49 or 47, and so on?

Using the shape in Milla's picture, for example, I could thicken the waist up a bit to suit my personal 'eye' better, but the exact numeric value that I chose wouldn't make any difference. As long as I pick a value within a range, it'd be just as good for me. The same can be said of every value.

It's all about the individual anyway. What one person sees as a great shape, another person will see as a poor shape. It's wholly subjective. It's not like Milla's brother's drawings. Either the finished drawing looks like the real thing or it doesn't. It can be off by small or large amounts, or it can be spot on. Shapes aren't like that at all. Say you have a shape where the proportions are good (for you), but you think it should have a bit more arm muscle, so you add some. Does that make it a bad shape? It might make it bad for someone else, but not for you. It's not about getting numbers right, and only certain sets of numbers are good. It's all about what individuals think of the shape, and a great many views will be different.

So once I bought a skin, and decided why not, I'd buy the shape to go with it. It looked good in the picture!
But once I had it on...arms were too short, hands too small, face looked kind of odd, and well...WHAT anatomy?

I've always been good at making shapes. Never thought to sell them though. I wince every time I see somebody walk by who doesn't seem to know what a human looks like!

Hmm i think we can reach the agreement if i alter a little this bottom line:

lot of people can create a shape _they personally find good_ if they want to.

the catch is in simple detail -- skill comes into play when the quality of creation or performance needs to be 'good enough' to meet subjective expectation of larger groups of observers. Thus a skilled creator will be able to make shapes that considerable amount of people find attractive, perhaps to the point where they'd like their own AV look like that ... while person lacking such skill will only be able to produce a shape that --while to them personally pleasing-- most other people will find to be crap, as you put it.