The truth about Shapes

Did you miss the part about there being 100^50 combinations? The odds of that happening by accident are less than the odds of two objects getting the same UUID by accident. Significantly less. 100^50 vs 3.4 x 10^38.

I think you may be confusing the skill involved in copying with the skill involved in creating. If someone creates a plaid texture in Photoshop, it's pretty easy to tell someone else how to duplicate it exactly. The colors are all numbers, the lines all horizontal or vertical, the distance between lines are all numbers. If you want some of the lines to have rough edges, the brush settings are also numbers. Sure, textures that are more complicated than plaid can't be done this way, but that's not the point. The point is that the creativity isn't in the setting the numbers, it's in finding them.

So just because it's easy to duplicate a shape exactly given the numbers, doesn't mean it's easy to figure out which numbers to use in the first place. That is the fallacy.


That's a meaningless distinction. Sure, a shape is in existence before you change any sliders. But when you create a prim, SL generates a stock shape for the prim just for you. It's a trivial difference. After that, changing the shape of a prim is the same as changing an avatar shape. There are a bunch of numeric settings, and some on/off settings. (Texturing the prim is a different story, as has already been mentioned.)


This reminds me of the old joke about the plumber who fixed a leak by tightening a screw, and then submitted a $100 bill. The customer thought that was outrageous, and asked for the bill to be itemized. The plumber responded with:

Turning the screw: $1
Knowing which screw to turn: $99

You're upset because the plumber could have just told you which screw to turn, which you'd expect to save you $100. But that's not fair - fair would have you still paying the $99.

There's certainly skill involved in matching a shape to a skin. There's also some real knowledge and experience to keeping shape settings from interacting in unfortunate ways (teeth protruding under the lips in some emote anims, etc.). And there's a practical value to saving the time and trouble of tweaking sliders.

So, not to devalue the whole enterprise of shape-making, but the degrees of freedom with which to be creative with shapes are pretty limited. I suppose there must be on the order of a hundred shape sliders. In comparison, each pixel of an opaque texture has three orthogonal dimensions (however you slice it: HSV, RGB, ...), and the dimensions have comparable ranges (100 vs 256, both pretty arbitrary resolutions), so a shape carries roughly as much information as a 6x6 opaque image: a pretty small canvas.

It's interesting how much freight those shape dimensions have--how small changes suggest health, age, social status, intelligence, demeanor, ethnicity... I'm not sure if that's a tribute to human perception, or a condemnation of our willingness to stereotype.

This is really a fascinating argument we got going here LOL

I commented earlier so I wont repeat except to say I make shapes, and often do custom work for people.

Why.....because I enjoy it......and because I am asked. I suppose I am asked because others see what I can do, and either they don't think they can, or they don't have the patience or 'desire' to try. As long as there is demand for something....it will sell.

I'm an artist and when I commented that making a shape was like doing sculpture....I think I was taken a bit to 'literally'. What I meant, is I enjoy the process of creatige a 3d human figure as opposed to drawing a flat 2d figure. I like the depthe....the fact that you have to validate the look from all angles....make it cohesive....symetrical. When i started in SL I dismissed the sahpe making process as too basic and limiting. Then I started to really take some time to play with the sliders.......I started really looking at human faces, proportions...angles... and then I saw the results of fine tuning the sliders. I realized it was not just an any monkey can do this issue...it took some eyeballing and knowing what to look for.

I see more faces with absurdly pushed in chins and ridiculousy big eyes and exagerated chests & hips or freakishly square jaws.......and I think.....yikes.... that shape would look great if they just did 'this' or tweeked 'that'. But that is inconsequential too.......I can build if I want to.......I know how to texture and I can make textures......I got the building thing down......but I don't like it~ There is lies the key...... I buy the things that don't really enjoy creating. Anyone can learn how to script and create cool effects......but scripted objects are one the biggest sellers in SL. And that's a finite language......sort of like there's a finite number of shape sliders.

I guess my point is we all like to do what A. we're good at, and B. we enjoy. And we're willing to pay for everything else cause that's the way industry and the market fit together. Why bother arguing the points of it...... if shapes were so easy.....this discussion wouldn't exist. There would be no shape sellers in SL.

I tweaked my own shape from the original LL shape I got when I was rezzed. I was particular about how I wanted to look. But for my alt I couldn't be arsed (because she's only an alt lol) and so I went around collecting shapes for her. Saved me the time, and since I didn't really have an idea of what I wanted her to look like it didn't matter to me, as long as she is reasonably okay.

There are a lot of shapes stores and it depends on how much you are willing to pay for a shape.




You probably got ruthed, it has happened to me... I go into appearance and come out again (without touching anything) and they will ask me if I want to save changes, I say 'no' and then I'm back to normal.

I dunno... "finite" and "language" are two concepts not easily combined. It's rather like poets complaining that there are only 26 letters at their disposal.

And a program is a very special bit of "language" in that it's really not about the text, but about the states through which it passes during execution. For example, a couple lines of code--a few bytes, really--can represent every possible shape-slider combination, just by counting. Turing equivalence, etc.

This isn't to argue that scripts are more creative than shapes, either in theory or in practice. But the meaning of "finite" is dramatically different in these two domains.

if it was only the head size you tweeked try setting it to 50 (the default value) If it still looks to small try 60, and if too big try 40. these seem to be the size values used by hair designers for small, medium and large sizes.

Whether a shape is good or bad is wholly subjective, but I see plenty of avs with what I consider to be poor shapes. It's nothing to do with most people not having an eye for a shape - it's to do with what people want to look like. I see stacks of females with unrealistically huge boobs, together with unrealistically tiny waists, for instance. It's what they want to look like - for them it's a good shape. Nobody can argue with their opinions.

Bodies take very little time, and anyone can make a good body shape in hardly any time at all. Faces can take time, and really need to be done in conjunction with a skin. As I said earlier, I can understand people buying a skin with a shape that goes with it, because of the face, but not a seperate shape - unless they just can't be bothered to do it themselves.

Is it just slider settings, though? My alt has a bought shape, which he bought from a Japanese store. I can alter the shape (I gave him a cuter butt), but notice that if I set the body height to 50 he's much shorter than my own av (which started as a default LL avatar and which I've modified using the sliders) if I set my height to 50.

Height is affected by (in this order of amount)

Height setting

Leg length

Torso length

Hip Length

Neck length

Head size/stretch

To make such a statement I can't help but wonder ..

If you are just naturally gifted, weren't all that concerned with how your body looks, didn't stray much from the starter shape, Not worried about realism, or simply look kooky.


There are quite a few people ("anyone"s) who can't achieve the body shape they really want. It forms the core of my custom business.

This is odd argument; using this logic, we could say that most people have perfect drawing skills and are excellent singers. Because when they draw or sing 'badly' this isn't a sign they lack such ability... but they simply _choose_ to grate your sense of aesthetics, because theirs is clearly just different and nobody can argue with that.

I'll agree people that people who shape their AVs out of proportions do it because they strive to achieve certain look. But given exaggerations can also be performed skillfully or not (see some say, comic books for examples of both) ... when the shape displays lack of such skill i'll presume it means exactly that. That or there's just really lot of turpists out there.

My shape has evolved with hours and hours of work. Then once i accidently put on a diff shape and forgot to change my regular one and had to start over again trying to make it look like me! I recently even changed my butt making it smaller and my hips because im tired of always having to adjust skirts for the last year to make them fit me. So, to me, if someone does a great job on a body shape, one that doesnt look goofy and can get me into my skirts...god love ya! I hope you sell a ton! As for people having odd shapes because they want to??? I doubt many of them even know they look odd in the rear because tehy havent found the camera controls yet. I work with alot of newer folks who are here for biz and they do not want to be bothered spending time on such mundane things as vanity. However, once they realize the way appearance can be perceived in SL, they want to go out and get hair, skin and shape as fast as possible and get back to work. So i think folks who make good shapes in all ranges are just as valid as any other creator in SL. If they werent, they wouldnt be in SL because no one would ever buy a shape....just my two cents...smile...jojo

I don't think we have a disagreement here. If some poeple, including the person, think that the singing or drawing is good then, for them, it is good, even though most other people think they are crap. It's entirely subjective.

The bottom line is that anyone can create a good shape if they want to. Some people, such as Jojo, prefer not to spend time doing it, but they can do it if they want. It's one of the easiest things that can be done in SL. I'm sorry, but I don't buy that there's any real skill involved. Bodies are quick to do, and faces take longer, that's all, and whether the result is any good or not depends on which skin is applied to it. A face shape that looks terrific with one skin on, can destroy the looks of a different skin - the different skin was chosen because of what it looked like in a picture that was taken using a different shape. Imo, skins and shapes should really be marketed together, but mod, so that the face is good and any individual tweaks can be done. I still don't see any reason to buy a seperate shape, unless a person doesn't want to spend some time making their own.

Phil, I see what you are saying. But, I sort of disagree with a basic part of your argument. I'm sure I'm not alone here but when I skin shop I look at make ups, nipple size and realistic looking, and pubic area for realism. Skin tone is another factor but not as much as what I listed. All the skins I shop are have a nice face (with the shape used for the ad picture). But, I don't want to be just like that picture.......I want a unique look with the face the way I want it. So I find a skin that I like and buy it.....the shape is not important at that point. Then I go shopping for shapes.......I look at the face only. I get as many demos as I think I need to make a decision then go try them on to find a look I like or THE look I'm wanting. And from there I tweak the body to where I like my avatar. Mostly I make it shorter than the usual 6'4" with DDD boobs. I have my major slider numbers written down so it's not hard for me to do at all. However, I really have trouble with the face so I leave that part alone. I have a specific shape for the skins I wear......and they all are nearly identical in slider settings for everything but the face. And they all look different.

I'm here to tell you that making a quality shape does require skill.....and I'm willing to pay for that skill. No skin looks the same with a differnt shape......mainly because of the face. 3 to 700 lindens for a shape that has the look I want for the skin I want to wear is very worth the lindens spent.

Oh whatever,

Id love to see Phil duplicate some of the shapes produced by some of the leading shapes sellers just by looking at them.

When he gets 20 done that are 90% right if he were unbiased he'd change his mind that there was skill involved.

LOL

It really all boils down to the opinion of the consumer..... those who appreciate the skill are willing to pay for the products. Those who don't, don't. It doesn't bother me one way or another because I sell my shapes pretty cheap since I probably have enough in my inventory to bring out a new shape every month for the rest of my life lol And, it's the custom work I do for people that really, I feel, is worth the L's for the time and effort I put in to get the look they request.

For example... I made Borat for someone a while back.....It took me 'time' to shop around for the right skin & hair (and outfit lol) and my time is worth something. Making the shape itself wasn't too tough....but I had a photo open so I could be as exacting as possible with the features and body type. It came out pretty dam cool and the customer was very happy. That's all that matters. If someone wants something they cannot do themselves, for what ever reason......and I have the ability to do it.... then hoorah.

I made Mickey Rourke too.....take a look at his face some time and try and mimick that with the right skin and hair... whew he was tricky... but I had fun working on it. And... my favorite 2 shapes I've done.... my mother.....who was beautiful when she was young and had a very distinct look that I had not seen in SL. It was almost surreal recreating her. And my fiance...who also has a certain 'look' about him that I have never seen on any other avatar in the 14 months I've been in SL. So....I created him to see if I could... and he came out way cool! lol

The bottom line is that just because it's one of the easiest things to do in SL doesn't mean that it's easy on an absolute scale, or that anyone can do it well.

I don't understand what's so hard to believe about some people finding it very difficult to do things that you find easy. It strikes me that it's much easier to understand diversity in skills among people than it is to build a shape.

heck I'd like to see him duplicate Ann's look within 80% correctness.

She's posted her picture here on the forums many times AND listed where she got her skin from.

We'll forgive "DEMO" marks of course for the sake of discussion.

darn it, I keep forgetting to make those shapes as demo's LOL
Do many of you try demo shapes?

I always try the demo shape...........no demo, I don't buy.

I thought of offering demo shapes with like giant feet or something so people could try them on,

But it occurred to me that since many people don't read instructions and notecards, etc that I'd lose as many sales as I gained ..

Because the non-readers would think - wow I don't want a giant feet shape! and go elsewhere.

I have sold thousands of shapes over the years, no one has ever told me they didn't look like my vendor photos. Which I tried hard to make as clearly accurate to the shape as possible.

Still a demo is not a bad idea, especially for people who know the demo has limitations.

LOL maybe this would be a good use for a "SHAPE-BOT" click a button and it changes to the shape you are inquiring about.

I suddenly feel very vain.

Oh well.

And I suspect anyone can make clothing, skins & sculpties and quality furniture too, there's no real skill involved, just time

I wouldn't buy a shape unless it was already included in skin that I want because
a skin if its made for certain shape looks bad and often you have to guess what the shape
from photo the creator wanted.
Which isn't a problem for me but for some people especially new players it is.
There was lot of skins when I was new I might have bought if I had shape included when I was new with the demo.

No.

I've never even attempted a skin, but I believe it involves using a graphics programme, and templates. I've never attempted clothes either, but I believe it's the same for them, except prim clothes. Sculpties also require the ability to use a programme, and a further ability if a texture is made for the sculptie - e.g. a 1 prim sofa, where the different parts of the texture are in the right places when put on the sofa sculptie. Those things do need skills in using the programmes well. Sculpties also need skill, because you start with the equivalent of a lump of clay, and you create the shape you want.

Quality furniture usually doesn't need skill - it just needs time. Anyone can learn how to shape prims and link them together - no skill there. After that it's just a matter of applying textures - no skill there either. What *is* involved is attention to fine detail when applying the textures; e.g. applying them to 2 faces that are at right angles, but managing to make it look as though there is no sharp angle. That's just attention to fine detail - not really skill.

Alright. I'll change my position a little. If being skilled in something means having learned to do it, then I accept that it's skillful. E.g. if having learned to shape prims and link them together, is skillful, then it's skillful. And if paying attention to fine detail when applying textures is skillful, then it's skillful. However, anyone can learn to shape prims, link them together, apply textures, and pay attention to fine detail.

Making shapes is a lesser 'skill' than those things though, because all it requires is knowing where the sliders are, using them, and paying attention to fine detail, especially with the face. If that's a skill, alright. I don't think of it as being particularly skillful, any more than I think of making quality furniture as skillful, but there you go.

That definition of "skill" means that the ability to do anything is skillful, such as opening and closing a door. In a sense, that's true, but I don't think that it's how the word is meant here. In this thread, the word is being used to mean an ability that a few people have but most people couldn't have, even if they wanted to have it - such as being recognised as a good singer, or a good artist. All it takes to make a good shape, is knowing where the sliders are, using them, and paying attention to detail. Even making quality furniture, which I don't consider to be skillful, needs a bit more than that.