The truth about Shapes

Anyone can also make 'bad' shapes if they don't have solid idea what a good shape is. That --the knowledge-- is the skill part not all people have.

This skill can be acquired through study and practice of course, much like the study and practice helps people learn to draw 'better' ... but to pretend we're all born with this particular knowledge and so we can all utilize it if we only want to, is imo dishonest.

The funniest are the ones that set a couple of... assets... to maximum. I never hesitate to walk up to them and say "Obey gravity, it's the law." ... Always good for a laugh somewhere. (^_^)y

I can agree with your alteration, but I don't agree with the main paragraph. I don't agree that the majority of people can't see that a neck is a bit too long or too short, for instance, and that only skilled people can see it. I just don't agree.

Again, I don't agree. Anyone can make good or bad shapes, and anyone can see with their own eyes if a shape's neck is a bit too long for instance. Anyone can shorten such a neck until it's what they think is a good length. I simply don't agree that people in general are unable to see what is generally good and what isn't. And if they can see that something isn't good, they can adjust it easily enough.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that nobody ever sees a shape. We see shapes with skins on them, and it's the combination of shape with that skin that makes something generally good or bad. And even then, it's still wholly subjective.

Joannah I think you clarified my point a bit better.

The reason I used my brother as an example is because he IS in fact a gifted artist and one would think that using sliders to create an appealing shape or face should be easy for him. But, my point was....it wasn't easy for him. The body part was......drawing is...but he was having trouble with the faces so he asked me.

So.....there in lies the puzzle....if it's so easy with sliders to create......shouldn't someone with a higher than average artistic ability be able to do it? IE-my brother. But...he couldn't....I dont know why he had trouble or why I find it easy....but I can't assume that anyone with an understanding of sliders can turn out a great avatar shape & face when my own brother who is a genius had trouble. What does that suggest? Well....IMO it suggests that it does indeed take some kind of inate talent for manipulating 3d forms.

I do disagree with the lump of clay versus starter shape analogy though. Sculpture is something I am good at IRL.....but the key is visualizing the finished product. It is more difficult to take an existing face, lets say, and create an entirely new look. The reason I say this is because you have the visual influence of the existing features making it harder to visualize something very different. With a lump of clay.....you have a clean slate....there is nothing to interfere with your own vision and your own imagination. To me, this is easier. It is actually very frustrating not to have a totaly blank and featureless form to work with. I would prefer to begin from scratch....and often times I will use the goofiest starter form I can find (one of the original female starter shapes in the library folder is really bad lol) that way......I am not distracted by the features and I can come up with something totally different and hopefully unique. This is just me though...and how the process works...I don't pretend to know how anyone else does their creating.

I don't know why your brother asked you to do the face. Faces are more time consuming than bodies, and maybe he just wasn't used to it.

I've only ever made one shape. The body was a doddle, of course, as you implied, but the face took time. It was a long time ago, and I had the skin. The skin's face looked fine on my previous shape - that shape wasn't mod, and I really wanted to reduce the muscles, as they were just silly (to my eye) - but it didn't look fine on the shape I was making. The biggest problem was that, because of lighting, the face didn't look the same in Appearance as it did normally. Also, adjustments that I made in Appearance weren't adjusted the same when I came out of it. It was a long time ago, and I don't know if it's still the same. On top of that, the face needs to be tailored to look good from lots of angles (the body isn't that critical), and adjusting something for one angle, changes what it looks like from other angles. In the end I got a face that I was reasonably content with.

I am not a sculptor. I am just an average person who knows what looks good to me, and what doesn't. What I'm saying is that we are ALL like that - we don't need a special 'eye' or talent to see what looks good and what doesn't. If we did, we'd never buy a shape or skin because we'd have no idea if they were any good. We'd need a consultant to decide for us. And I'm saying that making a pleasing shape, including the face with a particular skin, doesn't require anything other than an average person's sense of what looks good and what doesn't, and time (the 'will') to create it with sliders. It's not a skill or talent like drawing is. It's the simplest thing is SL to learn, because there is only one thing you can do - slide sliders. All it requires is the will to spend time doing it.

Btw, I'm not intending to knock shape-makers. I haven't deviated from answering the original question. Shape-makers offer an excellent service for people who'd rather buy than make - most people, I imagine. But it isn't like drawing, singing, or playing instruments. Those things do require either talent or training - or both. And it isn't like some other things that can be done in/for SL. Scripting requires both knowledge and creative imagination, making skins requires some talent (I think) and the expertise of using graphics programmes, making some types of textures requires expertise with other programmes, etc. But shape-making requires only to know where the sliders are, an eye for what looks good (and we all have one of those), and the time/will to do it.

When I started I developed one shape which was pretty much halfway between "MY" shape and the default.

I modified this one and then used it as a starter template for most of my products for a while.

After a while (LONG while .. bla 5 minutes BWHAHAH yeah sure.. try years ) I really don't even need to look at the shape anymore to begin, I can just run down the numbers and come up with where I want to start for a shape. I already kind of know what they will look like in my head.

After I come up with the start then I'll start to look.

Shapes are easier to do than make skins or clothing ..

The appearance editor for shapes is very straight-forward and the results show up right away.

If a comprable editor existed for clothes a heck of a lot more people could make clothes than do now. If all you had to do was click and drag hemlines, etc ... and could watch the results right away.

But instead its more arcane. The textures don't even look like "RL clothes" or a "RL skin" with the way they have to be positioned to make the mesh.

Editing Textures to be applied to furniture is easier than making complex skins and clothes, but it is harder than the shape editor.

Sure anyone can come up with *A* shape. Not everyone can come up with *THE* shape they want, for whatever reason.

And people who have a lot of experience and some aptitude or drive can probably come up with *THE* shape in half the time it takes someone new to get *A* shape done.

If that was true, then we wouldn't see as many quasi-Ethiopian avatars with pneumatic breasts.

Not everyone has an eye for proportion. You take it for granted that we can all recognize a good shape when we see one, but not everyone looks critically to know that the neck is too long or the body is too thin. Example: Imnotgoing Sideways' teen avatar. The head is HUGE in proportion to the skinny body, but it may be a limitation of SL. Does it mean it's not a good shape? Not necessarily, because it depends on what the look you're going for is. People sometimes intend to make Anime-looking avatars, or whatever. The adult av, from what we saw, looks like it's well proportioned.

It takes nothing to push a slider but not everyone can see that their face is too blocky, the head is too big, the eyes too small, the arms too short, the waist too thin, the legs and hips too long, and not enough body thickness or body fat to make the thing look human.

This has got me thinking of all the different careers IRL: that folks make serious money at because they have a certain knack for doing seemingly simple things.....that others are just not good at. The 2 that come to mind quickly are landscape architecture and interior design.

In both these fields one might make the argument that anyone can see what 'looks good' and therefor make it happen. While this is true when browsing through a magazine or touring homes....a person will spot a design or style they like, recognizing it's fluidity and appeal.... that doesn't mean that everyone necessarily knows how to begin the process and come up with something they are happy with. Some folks just don't have the knack for it. While others who are very good at visualizing make all kinds of money walking into homes and transforming them for their owners.

Visualizing in any context is not something everyone necessarily has an aptitude for. This is going to translate in the tasks they undertake. In the case of interiors...you might have all the right pieces...but placement is the dilemma. Someone with a particular gift for design might walk in and say...hey put the couch at an angle instead and move the TV here..... it's all about perception...being able to see what 'will' work and then make it happen. I think in shape making this porcess is very important and folks who are more adept at it, are such because they have the ability of foresight......they look and can 'see' what changes will have what effect, and their vision is always one step ahead of their actions.

And dam it Phil...you've only made ONE shape!!!? LMAO I'm gonna challenge you now brothah! make me Antonio Bandaras....I wanna see what you can turn out

Believe it or not... (I must live under a rock, I know) This weekend was the first time I ever saw Banderas other than in a movie clip advert... He is so over rated! So many better looking men out there..

Now back to your regularly scheduled Shape-Thread....

Yep and then theres the issue with their friends feeding them BS ..

"Do I look hawt?"

"Oh yeah!"

People in SL tend not to be very critical of their friends appearance ..

This has even led to some people opening shapes shops who really shouldn't have ... its just scary.

QFE.

Another example: Milla. That full body picture - hands are very small. Torso is very long. So are the hips. The body is extremely thin, but some people are built pretty lankily. But the face and breasts look like they have normal proportions.

We have to allow for intended variations - we cannot all be 36-24-36 and 5'10". But the line between lanky and cartoonish is pretty thin in SL. The best shape designers know the difference.

shapes are uh controversial I guess

I personally would never buy a shape but then I never buy much of anything hehe. I also can't see what is so hard about making them, but on the other hand I do know people who can't make a shape to save their life nor can they really build much or have much of an eye for that stuff. Its for those people that shapes are made.

Most shapes also come with a bunch of info on where to buy things that go with them so I guess to me its kinda like a service where they have done some research on shops etc as well.

I do know that its probably one of the more controversial second life "occupations" maybe because its the only part of the avatar that can be made inside second life not totally sure. Yes its much easier then making the skin (to me anyhow) so I guess the price should reflect that.

/me looks in the mirror.
Oh I agree 100%. And I am much more humble than he.

I think that is actually because of camera angle, my AO, and my choice of puffy hair. (=_=)

Here's another shot I have... http://sluniverse.com/pics/pic.aspx?id=268373 Please excuse my habitually odd camera angles... I watched Kung Fu way too much. (>_< Things look better proportioned there, if not more shady and bendy because of the way I was facing and the fact that my AO really doesn't have a pose with a straight spine. (^_^)

Thanks for the critique though, I do plan on another shape project in the coming week. (^_^)y

My take on this:

You could put a chimpanzee in a car. In time they might hit the right sequence of levers and switches to get the car moving. They probably won't stay on the correct side of the road for long and they probably won't obey the traffic lights. They most certainly won't make it to the next town.

They'll hit a lampost, mebbe a shop window, mebbe a busstop.

I've seen a lot of avatars that look like traffic accidents.

I really do mean the head - look at the width from ear to ear in comparison to the shoulders. Either the shoulders are too narrow, or the head is too wide and the body not thick enough. Edit: does your AO squinch up your shoulders?

Okies... Thanks... Wait... Is the 'teen' avatar the short one? It's actually a kid shape. It's also not really my work. I only take credit for the face on that one. (^_^) I take full credit for the biggie though. (^_^)y

And, yeah... The arms crossed ani really pushes the shoulders in. (^_^)

I smell a great piece of tv in the making. Chimpanzee Demolition Derby!! we could give them little helmets and firesuits and everything!

In all seriousness, I think building shapes is a skill most people could master, but it takes time to get it right and most people don't have a natural eye for proportion, so to build a really good shape, they would have to invest a lot of time. They buy them for convenience. If they don't want to make one themselves and instead prefer doing other things, it makes sense to drop a few L on a shape that looks good to them and then go do whatever makes them happy instead. Probably defile their new shape with lots of pixel sex.

Well... I have my views, and I'm stickin' to 'em

Now now Milla. We are not talking about making specific characters - we are talking about making decent shapes.

LOL I am looking at the pic I posted now.... most of the hands I see in SL look like flippers....but then again...IRL I do not have large hands.....if I place my hands the way that avatar is positioned......the proportion is the same. I'm also thin.....so I think often times when making shapes we tend to create what we 'know'. This is true of artists in general.....often human images will take on features of the artist whether intentional or not.

One thing I take into consideration in SL is that some realism looks goofy on an avatar. The human form comes in all shapes and sizes.....and not necessarily proportionate either. There's a formula in nature that involves symetry that the human eye finds most pleasing..... But in SL....(and maybe because I have a 24" moniter I am uber critical lol) some things will work that would never work on a real body.

One of the things that kills me is the guys walking around with no crotch. Their belly ends at their hips and they look like their entire midsection has been squashed into their diaphram. I think folks forget the elongate the hips a bit to allow for the fact that there is normally flesh there lol. If you look closely at human bodies you're going to find all variations.....longer torsos with shorter legs is more common in men and also in some ethnicities.....head to shoulder ratio is also tricky because realism there can look goofy in SL. I can't tell you how many times I fixed shapes for girls because they thought thier heads were too big.....when in reality they were just proportionately correct.

In SL folks don't want correct.....they want visually appealing. For everyone that idea is different.

Wouldn't that be nice?

I think this belief is rather easy to disprove -- if the majority of people were naturally equipped with eye and knowledge to easily see proportion flaws in artificial creations ... would there still be need for regular artists to study and practice drawing of the human form? Would there be point at all to all these studies of human proportions, if we all simply _knew_ when these proportions are correct and when they aren't? If anyone could indeed see it, there would be no need to study this matter. So the very fact they do take time to teach painters about these things, to improve their craft, that there's numerous books on the subject... show that it's simply not something we can take for granted.

very true. It's not so bad but as the body gets longer, it seems really out of proportion to the general size of hands I think that that body should have.


Very true.