Are Virtual Worlds the new place to discrminate in?

I keep hearing things like this. "Just change your appearance", "you don't need a wheel chair", Hey this isn't real life so look, act and dress our way or you're out" and many more.

Most of this hasn't happened to me but I know those who it does happen to. Something as simple at a 5'8" women based on prim size (the official Linden Lab measurement) being told she's a child AV because everyone else decided to be 7 to 8 feet tall to being told to change skins because they are too "young looking or old or color and even race. I've heard of people getting told they can't have a wheel chair in a club because they bump into others and of course furries getting banned everywhere they go.

The thing is how long do we put up with this and when is too much too much? Sure it's a virtual world where anyone can be anything they want to be but some of us are happy being ourselves. I'm 4 foot 9 inches in real life. I'm happy being short and I'm not comfortable being tall in Second Life but I have to because if I don't I get harassed and banned for "looking" like a child AV even thought I'm told if I just change my height I'll be fine.

The thing is if we can be anything we want to be and no one is getting hurt or forcing others into watching something others think is sick then I really feel there needs to be some kind of LL policy that protects those who just want to be what's either normal or comfortable to them.

To me it's wrong to force others when they aren't there pushing their agendas or bothering anyone. For someone to say "It's a private sim *open to the public* so we can tell you that you can't be; "short, disabled, furry, Giant or a person of color" is wrong and it's not an excuse in the Real World for a private business, store or club to do it either.

Emily Darrow

parcel/sim/etc owners can decide who they want on their land. Sometimes that may piss someone off, but they have to get over it and go elsewhere.

There are places that do not allow child avatars, furries, etc, I know a few that are insta ban darn near it if you go there, they have huge traffic, but only the traffic they want.

Some may not like it, and no it's not ideal, but just have to put up with it.

I know one place that is for african americans only and they eject any other avatar that is non black. But thats the owners decision.

it can piss ya off, but oh well. I do enjoy the freedom we have to choose how we wanna run our places, or enjoy our time on sl. Thankfully lindens don't dictate that part yet cause that would definately run off people if they could not run their shops/parcels/etc how they wanted or log in to sl and do what they wanted.

Freedom will always piss people off, cause with freedom comes prejudices and prejudices aren't something to be attacked even though many people try to, but it's our differences and prejudices that make us human.

Hate on other hand is sad, but happens, and with owners, it's best to not frequent their shops/sims/etc. And if you are harassed, then file an abuse report immediately!

I agree with Emily: How long must we tolerate intolerance in-world? People who are intolerant of differences in-world to the point of insta-bans and such are very likely just as intolerant of people different from them in the real world as well.

However, regarding small avatars and attitudes toward them: Even though I am a smallish avatar myself, I can completely understand where these attitudes come from. When it concerns relations between adults and minors in real life, our society has taken on the attitude of "arrest and destroy lives first, ask questions never" - because, as EVERYONE in a modern, caring society knows, any adult who has anything other than a strictly parental or professional relationship with a minor is OBVIOUSLY a pervert and child molester, right? *tongue firmly in cheek*

Anyways, since the onus always seems to be on the adult in question to prove innocence, most adults try to distance themselves as far as possible from any chance of being caught in that situation, to the point of erring way on the side of caution. In short, if you even remotely look child-like, you will be shunned. To do otherwise is to tread on extremely dangerous territory.

Child avatars CAN'T be allowed in sexually oriented places, per SL rules. And I can understand, say, a realistic 1800s Goldrush RP not allowing furries, for purposes of historical accuracy. But to ban someone for being black or disabled or furry in a non-RP sim is wrong, I agree!

People will discriminate. It's just what people do.

What? You somehow thought people would become enlightened in sl?

ROFLMAO!

(Actually crying on the inside. I'm kinda sensitive.)

Being a furry most of the time myself I had to deal with stuff like being banned, got myself into discussions about discrimination and what not. I used to get upset by that. But after almost 2 years in SL I came to the only conclusion that makes sense: There are some 20.000 or so sims. Change your av or move on. It is really that simple.

I support sim owners ability to run their sims how they want. If they wish to ban certain types of avatars or whatnot then fine. The sim owners pay the bills and they get that freedom.

If I do not like how a sim is ran then I have 2 choices, leave or start my own sim how I want to.

Start trying to make everyone conform then that's worse form of discrimination than any that already exists.

I wouldn't want to visit some sim that makes everyone conform to 1 type of thinking and belief.

Oh.. Somebody mentioned short people! Time for one of my favorite rants..


Most people think that a RL meter isn't the same as a SL meter. If you want to be short, you should be short. Just please don't go by that damn script that every short person seems to want to send me if I politely ask their apparent-age when they come into my adult club. Furniture in SL is pretty standard sized - go by how you want to look vs your surroundings instead of by what some damn script says.

Also, please don't give club owners a hard time if you're child-sized and they ask you how old you're supposed to look. Unless somebody is obviously trying to look like a child, a simple "18+, both in RL and SL!" will shut me every time; 10 seconds of typing = problem solved.

Of all the short people that I ask about age at my place that get banned, the majority get banned because they gave me a crap when I asked their age. They usually go on and on in IM about how I'm fascist, power-hungry, discriminating, height-hating amazon but, well, I pay the bills and I have every right to punt anybody I want. If you give a land owner crap about something, you should expect to get crap in return.

Or, if you're trying to follow the rules and are being polite & all and they still give you crap about your height, or for being in a wheelchair or furry or whatever, do you really want to be hanging out with that crowd anyway?


Wrong? Sure. Absolutely. No argument from me there!

It's still within their rights, though. If I wanted to ban anybody not wearing red shoes at my place, that's my right..

A few points of importance here IMO...
1. You can be short, or disabled, or anything you want so long as it doesn't break the TOS. kid avatars are NOT against the rules.. kids doing or being around sexual stuff IS. If you look young but you're not around sex or adult themed stuff, you have every right to tell someone who makes suggestions or complains just because they personally don't like it to politely go take a flying leap.

2. Landowners have every right to be as discriminate as they want. They PAY for that right. Visitors do not. If you don't like that, the landowner has every right to politely tell YOU to go take a flying leap.

3. Yes.. it's tell someone to take a flying leap day

I think the real dilemma here is that SL, because it allows people to be what they want to be....AND to control their environment if they own land.....and set rules......It basically promotes a certain level of discrimination.

I don't like discrimination of any kind either....I absolutely detest racism or favoritism. But....LL can't tell their residents they are not welcome based on those grounds either.....or LL would be equally guilty of discrimination. So...in essence, we're still dealing with the real world here because there will always be people who either A. want to define their own space in a very strict manner....or B. discriminate due to their own racial or ethnic views IRL. LL has no control over people like that.......but SL is big enough where we all can find places to fit in and be acccepted no matter who we decide to present ourselves as.

Personally...I have no problem changing my avatar to different looks because I find it enjoyable to do so........but for me, that is in the context of a female human because that's what am IRL and prefer to be in SL. If I bounced myself into a furrie camp or something and they booted me because I wasn't in character......it wouldn't really phase me. They have set rules in order to create an environment that pleases them. So be it.....it's no skin off my teeth.

On the other hand.....I probably would just change my avatar to African American if I wanted to visit a place that only allowed those avatars. Then I would wonder if they'd boot me if they found out I was really a blond haired blue eyed white girl IRL.....which would beg the question.....if I got booted....then that would mean what they really wanted was only that race IRL in their sim.....so......I would then further conclude that it should be ok for me to wander thru as a furry as long as I was African IRL......(you see where I'm headed with this right....lol)

It's all silly....but it's all also very human and we can't escape our foibles even in SL.

That's just it thought as a company in the real world Linden Lab can't discriminate and that's the law even though they ARE PRIVATE and pay the bills. Having a private sim doesn't exclude the owner from obeying the laws of the land and that's even been said by Linden Lab.

What your missing is that only LL is bound by the RL laws of discrimination, because they are a RL entity/company. Inside SL, LL is the all-mighty and they grant landowners the right to do as they wish.. including being discriminate if they so choose.
Every single place in SL that's NOT owned by Lindens, is owned by a resident or group who can choose to make up any rules they wish about who can be there or not.

Well, land owners don't get _total_ control. I think there's an AR category for 'intolerance' though I don't expect they'd act on a <5' avatar complaining about being kicked from an adult place. They'd probably come down pretty hard on a Nazi sim or a gay-bashing group though, if they didn't keep it tightly contained to thier pathetic little circle.

Anti-discrimination laws generally apply to employment practices. Private clubs are legally able to determine their own membership.

In my country it would be against RL law to discriminate against things like disability or race. Because this is not RL it doesn't seem to matter, people are under the impression that because they "own" the land they can do what they like. But some RL laws do exist eg gambling and copyright laws. so how far do we want to go. If someone rips off my design I can use RL law to stop them. But if someone denies me access to land, that is otherwise open to the SL public because I am disabled I can do nothing about it. I do not want RL laws in SL, but also do not want to be discriminated against. So what do we do.

We could start to "name and shame" such people. That way people could avoid their Clubs, malls and other profit making areas. They would soon change their minds when they start to loose money. But would this work? Unfortunatly I don't thinks so. many people would just not be bothered or it would entise like minded people wich would just put small minded bigots together.

So what have I concluded, we must just bend over and take it. but at least we can deny these people of our lindens and colorful personalities


not sure what the purpose of my rant was I just wanted to say something on the subject. I detest discrimination, and hope LL decide to intervine and ban culprits

well in the last week I've been told to grow my AV and I'm not under 5 feet, I'm 5 feet 8 based on Prim measurements and still over 5 feet 5 based on the resident made one that's not accurate. The thing is it will keep being pushed up and up and up so what was normal sized (relatively speaking) 3 years ago is now Child AV. And if you're here long enough without pushing your size up you'll eventually end up being told to grow or leave. Of course this isn't general but it has happened. If my AV was as tall as I am now 3 years ago I would of been on the side of tall. At least in the circles I was in.

I also know and this is fact. Your Avatar is made of a finite number of polygons and they don't curve so the bigger you are those straight lines become more astute and apparent and the textures get stretch if they are 512x512 for the skin. The bigger your AV is the less defined it is, the soft curves become hard angles and everyone starts to look more or less alike. Not for me, not now not ever and not out of fear mongering over something I detest too. Then there's the need to make bigger and bigger buildings and so on and so on. You might disagree that it's an issue but as a builder and placing doors made from 05 next to guy today and it's pretty easy to see. Size doesn't equate child in SL anymore than it does in RL. but at 5 foot 8 inches and getting told to grow another foot or get banned is getting out of hand. Special when I'm a business person in SL.

How have you been denied access to someplace in SL because you're disabled?

There is a fundamental difference between discrimination in RL and SL.

In RL, people are discriminated against because of innate qualities they cannot change.

In SL, you control every aspect of your avatar. it is not an undue hardship for you to be asked to alter it to fit into the environment of a particular sim.

I have not but according to the op it does happen. I just hate the thought that any would be disciminated against for the way they look.

yes I understand the difference between RL and SL. But if someone chooses to make a SL representation of their RL selves then the discrimination would feel the same as it would RL.

I have a mature sim, the people there role play in various avenues however I do not think any are child.. I have an adult themed sim with pose balls in various places for photos kisses and dances, some are a bit naughty but not many...

I had no tthought to much about allowing in child avatars because much of the sim is open for exploration and quite fun... Nothing however geared twords child avatars..

One day in my venue a child avatar poped in, I profile checked this person and she had a childs photo of about hte age of 5 in rl section...Banned...

I also ban idiots (usually new people) who try to shoot me with their idiotic weapons....

I really dont care what color you are or if you are a furry tiny or just a big blob of glowey goo.... You are wellcome to my sim, but as a child..... I am not so sure I want that..

And although I never play a child, I do not look any differently on folks that do...

I have never been banned from anywhere for who or what I was, Im not sure Ive been banned period really....

I have been lucky myself and have not seen discrimination... although they do frown on your for wearing clothing at a nudist beach...

Laugh at them. They are Giants in the clone army.

I'll insta ban the spampires, or some crazy arc avatar only there to cause lag will be asked to change or be removed also. Very simple.

people can do with there land how they wish. people that want to force everyone to conform to some ideology... as we say in eve.. cry more noob

hehe

Ive been booted from sims for having a costume avatar on like Wall-e avatar, its no big deal i go home, change, and head back if i liked the place or go elsewhere.

Buttheads are everywhere in RL so it is not surprising that they are in SL. If someone gives you a hard time because you are small then they have saved you the trouble of discovering later that they are an asshat. Just leave, do you really want to hang around that spot or give that buisiness your money. In the many children threads over the years there are some who are discriminated against on a regular basis, while others say it is very rare. I have an idea it is more a matter of perception because it is up to you whether you are going to be bothered/upset or just laugh it off and go on your way.

I am by no means an angel all of the time here in the forum but there are a couple that go out of their way to pick on certain people. The reason that they pick on these people is because they are the ones that get upset, which was the goal to begin with. If you do not get upset then you are left alone.

Probably not the most coherent ramblings I have ever spat out since it is waaaay passed my bedtime, which is where I am going now.

I wish it was that simple, the place I wanted to go was a roleplay sim. I have several friends there and want to be them. The person who runs the roleplay has no problem with me and knows I don't RP anything like a child and I certainly don't dress like one (but what's funny is most children these days wear jeans and t-shirts but the dress they ban are turn of the century gothic lolita and who wears those except in japan). It's the actual sim owner who leased the sim to this group and now dictates his own sense of morality based on height (he is 8 feet 11 inches tall). He says it's my look but he never said anything until he asked to see how tall I was. This was after 4 days.

I host an adult area and if you come there short I dont have an issue but if you come there short with pigtails, in a kids style outfit sucking a lollypop then i just may IM you and ask you to change your look. Often Ill ask others in the area what age they feel a person is if they feel the AV is child like in look or actions i bring out the boot if they do not change or leave

I'm in! Everyone I ask for cybersex should be compelled to agree, otherwise they are discriminating against me!

Pep (Just as dumb as the OP's argument)