Men in Drag

Or that someone's mixing up abrogate and arrogate (cue jokes about towns in North Yorkshire).

I must not be very intelligent. I just can't see how the RL gender identity of a female AV even matters at all in SL.. that is, if one truly treats people as they appear, or wish to be taken. Sure there's RL differences between those two, and probably a few noticible behavioral ones in world, but I guess I don't see how drawing a mental difference between the two as applies in SL is at all beneficial. Isn't saying a female AV run by type A should be considered significantly different than a female AV run by type B going completely counter to the open and accepting ethos of communities like the LGBT? If they both wish to be taken as females in SL, then aren't they both just females? and does the rest even matter?

I'd be curious why a hetero man would portray a female, except perhaps in a roleplay zone, full time, if it had nothing to do with sexual wish fulfillment.

Sorry if that sounds ignorant but well, the definition of ignorance is 'not knowing' and well, I don't know.

Nothing in my statement asserted that people that don't understand the difference are not intelligent. The implication was quite the opposite and an open acknowledgment that intelligent people might not be capable of drawing the distinction. In addition to that, it seems you do understand the distinction, you just don't appreciate the relevance. Which is why you stated...
It matters because there are people in SL that do not treat people as they appear or wish to be taken. It matters because if people do not understand how RL gender identity is relevant to how transwomen who present themselves with female avatars wish to be treated, then they are susceptible to the belief that transwomen wish to be treated no different than men who present themselves as female avatars because they wish to be sexually objectified when in female form.
It's completely reconcilable with any accepting ethos of the LGBT community. A female AV run by a transwoman should be considered significantly different than a female AV run by a man who is using the AV so he can be sexually objectified in the form of a woman because the two parties (more often than not) want to be treated in significantly different ways.

It depends a little on how you'd define "hetero" and also "sexual wish-fulfilment".

There are a lot of variations on the transgender spectrum and not all of them are sexual. The medical profession have done no-one any favours with the term "transsexual" because people instantly link it in their minds to homo-, hetero- and bi-sexual, and it isn't necessarily anything to do with sexual preference. The language can get very awkward when you constantly have to reference a persons birth-gender, preferred social gender and preference of sexual partner.

Some male-bodied transvestites (male born, preferring to dress as women) are not sexually interested in men. They might come to SL and choose a female av to fulfil this preference. Nothing sexual. They *could* dress a male av in female clothing, but for many the purpose is to create a strong illusion of femininity. Why mar that with a male body?

Equally there are "transvestic fetishists" who get a sexual thrill from dressing as a woman, but they still have no sexual interest in men. While this is "sexual wish-fulfilment" it doesn't necessarily involve a partner. If it does, it would probably be a woman. This might cover a lot of the SL "faux-lesbians".

On another level, there are male-born transsexuals who would dearly love to have female body, but still have no sexual interest in men. If they were female-born, they'd be lesbians. Whether you call them "hetero" is up for debate, but I'm not sure they fit your definition as it stands.

(disclaimer: not an inclusive list. I am not a doctor, scientist, lawyer or psychiatrist. I am not a man, but I've played one in RL. Other life-choices are available.)

Remember that other thread about the experience of trans... um... transmeshites in Second Life? People are friendlier, you get more attention, ...

I'm stealing that word.

It's trans-mesh-ites yes?

Not something else? -- that I read it as first time.

It seems to me that the diversity of reasons "why" people choose one particular route to establishing their identity over another must be enormous, as varied as the number of individuals themselves. And that goes for heterosexuals as well. I'm straight, but I can guarantee that what that means for me, and how I self-present in that context, will be different from anyone else's approach.

In some ways, categories like "heterosexual/homosexual" and such need to be rethought. If Judith Butler and Eve Sedgwick were right in saying that we can't really be classified according to rigid categories, but are instead "what we do," then these classifications are ultimately meaningless straitjackets anyway.

I agree. My few rigidly defined examples were just that... examples to answer Clarissa's question. I've seen a lot more reasons given, here on the forum, in-world and RL.

As for homo-/hetero- classifications (and all the shades in-between); I'm not too happy with those either. "Labels are for jars" is something I hear often in LGBT* debates. If someone wants to classify, I'm far happier with androphilia/gynephilia** to describe sexual attraction because they describe the object of one's attraction, rather than whether or not you happen to share the same shape of body.

* Another label *sigh* can't escape them.
** and bisexual, pansexual, asexual and whatever else people want, which aren't dependant on the subject's gender either.

Yep. I was actually agreeing with you here: you were pretty clear that these were just a few examples.


Well, human communication, and maybe understanding, I suppose does rely on labels. But we can be self-conscious of their limitations, and find better ones.

I like these ones, because they relate to what we do, rather than to "what we are." You can call me "heterosexual" I suppose, but it relates to only one very small part of my identity, namely those moments when I am, in one way or another, busy "BEING" heterosexual. As opposed to the far more numerous moments in my life when I am "being" something else that has absolutely nothing to do with whom I like to sleep with.

As I am a hetero male who portrays a female in world almost exclusively, I can tell you, from my perspective, it isn't about the sex, nor am I currently involved in any roleplay in the sims.

For me, it is a matter of comfort. I was uncomfortable with this account in the SL world. I felt it was difficult to approach people. I'm shy by nature, and that shyness seemed to come through my avatar. I created my female account to try to interact more. I found a whole new world open up to me. Of course, I also had the pervs as well, but I guess that is just part of the territory.

I like meeting people, dancing, and even the shopping. There's so many great stores and outfits for women, and I've greatly enjoyed dressing up. I also like the emotional experience, which is far different than it is for a male. There is a different level of connection there that I experience and enjoy. As a result, I like being treated like a woman in SL.

Have I had sex with my alt? Yes, with both men and women, but for me it isn't what is important. I don't go out looking for sex. I'm looking to have a good time and make friends. I don't announce to everyone that I'm male, but I don't hide the fact either. If the topic comes up, or if a friendship is being formed, I will always tell the other person that I'm a male, so there are no false hopes or hurt feelings.

Thanks all for the replies on that.

Kelli - I understand, if it matters, (or at least, feel I do) why a transgender person would wish to be the gender they identify as.

My question was about the stereotypical 'hetero' male bodied male identified, well, male, in real life, who chooses to be a woman in Second Life, but not primarily for sexual reasons i.e. making his ideal woman av and exploring sexual fantasies visually with the avatar, or, 'staring at her butt because it's better than staring at a male butt' that type of thing. Lol I've heard those reasons in the past, although I'm not sure I really fully understand the reasoning, I've heard the reasons before.

But I haven't really heard the non sexual reasons. Or maybe I don't understand 'the shopping is better' because I wouldn't want to be other types of avatar for that reason alone. I guess if one really loves shopping...But for me it's dressing AS a princess or mermaid or whatever leftover childhood ideas, as a result of the shopping, that makes the shopping enjoyable. If I had to dress as things I never fantasised about or cared about, like, a fireman or lumberjack, I wouldn't be into it. At least not nearly as much, maybe not at all.

It's interesting to me that Kalor self identifies as hetero male* in RL and enjoys sex as a female in SL. Maybe this would fall under 'exploring/developing one's feminine side'? (And btw thank you Kelli and Kalor for being so forthright and open.)

* I realise there is a spectrum involved in sexuality but for purpose of clarity and space I've painted with a bit of a broad brush, so to speak.

To misquote Hamlet, "There is more between male and female, Horatio, than is dreamt of by your philosophy."

I'm sure there are more reasons than you and I and the rest of the forumites could dream up.

But, one example. I know an RL-male business owner who plays a female character because he makes and sells womens' wear. I've known him for a long time, and never saw any clue that it was anything else.

Furthermore, transvestitism isn't about sexuality or even sexual identity. It's about what someone wants to wear. It can be mixed up with those other things or not.

I don't much understand any of these things, but that doesn't make them any less real.

Ouch on the Horatio quote.

First of all, you've included things that I said from the first weren't part of my question. And second, I admitted that I did not understand the part I did ask about. So, to remind me that I don't know everything seems a bit unnecessary.

Again I wasn't asking about transvestism although I guess that could've been made clearer on my part I guess, since hetero males do partake in transvestism. Eddie Izzard for example - one of my favorite entertainers.

Did you really think I was asking about transvestism though, or were you being completist?

(The story about your friend is interesting, but see it isn't really transvestism in this case - he lives his SL as a woman, not as a male in women's clothes. There is a difference, I think. Although I can see a case being argued there is no difference, if you count the entire avatar as 'clothing.')

I don't see 'he sells the clothes' as a reason to live his entire SL as female. I'm not judging it at ALL by the way. Just admitting to curiosity. I could sell male clothing and it wouldn't make me want to live SL as a male.

Does it just boil down to "it's more fun?"

Part of why I find this so intriguing is, how many men would live as women in real life if they could? I don't mean questions of gender identity, or transvestism, I mean if they could start life again and experience all of life irrevocably as a woman. Because I always felt like in real life men get the breaks. So it's very intriguing to me that in SL men feel that way about the women.

I guess in some cases it is like "the grass is always greener on the other side." I know, by nature, I'm curious. I'm sure others are as well. So, yeah, I guess there is part of me that wants to know and experience life on the "other side." To be honest, I've wondered what life would be like as a woman in RL, but knowing my RL bad habits, I'd probably make a horrible one. LOL

In RL, I'm male and am only interested in females. Although I have been curious of what life would be like as a woman, I don't really desire to change my gender or even "dress the part" in RL. But, to be honest, there are rare occasions that I wonder if I was born the wrong gender. I just don't seem to fit in with the "guys." LOL

I can identify with that, Kalor.

I don't think I would change (RL) if given a chance, not at this point. And as a male I might have been too quick with fists, who knows. I was fairly headstrong as a child. But, on the other hand I was fairly gullible also, and that's not good as a female young adult!

But at times I've daydreamed about how life would've been different if I'd been born male, and even wished I had been. I don't seem to be attracted to the types of things that games gear toward males, though. Such as fighting with guns, for instance. And the poignant posts about how no one talks to males in SL don't make it sound fun either. Maybe that is why I'm not curious about having a male 'Second Life.'

I really appreciate your sharing and being so open about all of this. Thank you.

He sees it differently, or so he says, and I never saw any clues that he wasn't being straightforward. It's certainly possible that there's more to it, of course.

BTW, I only mentioned transvestites as an RL analog -- and maybe it's not a good one. There are a lot of differences.

I wouldn't mind "walking a day in the shoes", but I doubt I'd want to go further than that. I bless my lucky stars!

Hey young lady, would you like to see my etchings?

BTW, did you know that "gullible" isn't even a real word?

Love is still looking for "gullable" actually.

Pep (She has tried several dictionaries, but I don't think she has read the first definition in The Urban Dictionary for it: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gullable )

I don't like fighting with guns or such like; now, words on the other hand . . .

Pep (has no problem getting smart, sassy, sexy girls to talk to him. )

For once I agree with Pep! (is the sky falling or what )

I'm a lover not a fighter... and women always talk to me

OK, now THAT is funny.
By the way, Pep, you would enjoy "Fry's English Delight" on BBC Radio 4. But you prolly won't just because I have said its enjoyable.

I fought with words once. Had no trouble handling the nouns, but the adjectives kicked my ass.