Tier fees increased by tax
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Sling Trebuchet
Deleted User
Join date: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 4,548
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09-27-2007 13:52
From: Walker Moore People over here buy stuff over the internet from the USA all the time Chris. Those goods are not subject to VAT, but the tax laws of those states.
Europeans are not suffering these price hikes due to any change in government policy, but because Linden Lab decided to fart about with their payment processing situation (move it to a country outside the US) without considering the taxation implications.
...and to rub salt into the wounds, they let us find out by accident.
I'm guessing Zee Linden is still the Chancellor of the Exchequor over there. The lack of forethought or diplomacy is a giveaway. "..Those goods are not subject to VAT, but the tax laws of those states....." Eh? On your credit card they are not, but - Legally, there are Customs Duty and VAT considerations that MUST be taken into consideration - unless you wish to ignore them, which ignoring is not unheard of and is ignored/undetected by Inland/Revenue / Customs / whatever because they have bigger fish to fry. I cover all transactions in my books the legal way. It's way safer. |
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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09-27-2007 13:53
But
you Dont actually OWN ANYTHING!!
I never paid sales tax for rent.
You are only renting this server space from LL - you dont own it.
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Oryx Tempel
Registered User
Join date: 8 Nov 2006
Posts: 7,663
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09-27-2007 13:54
From: Milla Alexandre The real dilemma is taxation of 'service'. In the US...(and I'm not sure by state, but I know a few) services are NOT taxable.....only actual 'things'. SL....for all it's cyber reality...is still just a service....there is absolutely nothing tangible that we can walk away with from SL. At best....the downloaded program itself, that allows us access, could be construed as such....but certainly nothing in-world. I'm guessing this is a sticky issue they are going to have to re-think and re-work a few times before everyone agress on it. That's where I was going with this... we don't actually get ANYTHING out of SL. We pay for a service here, not a product. God knows LL has told us enough times that IT owns everything on the servers and can delete us at any time. That means that we pay for... what? I don't see a product here. I know it's nitpicky but it IS an issue. |
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Meade Paravane
Hedgehog
Join date: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 4,845
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09-27-2007 13:55
Some JIRA that this new charge appeared without warning. I'll vote for it..
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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09-27-2007 13:57
From: Brenda Connolly So is that this week's Weekend Linden Sandbagging? hahahaha coco |
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Stacey Sugar
Registered User
Join date: 15 Mar 2005
Posts: 75
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09-27-2007 13:58
Concierge are useless, they have no idea whats going on. I would like to know when the VAT rule comes in, now, today or on 1st October? If so, I want to transfer ownership of my islands & land to my partner in Israel, who definitely isn't in the EU. Therefore I only need to pay VAT on my premium membership.
How do corporations own their accounts & land? Lets say I open up a company in the Cayman Islands and that company owns my premium account & my land? I am not a director or owner of the company, its owned by nominees in that country. LL wouldn't be able to charge me VAT on this but they are saying that because I log in through a EU IP address that the account is owned/operated in UK ... since I would just be a sole benefactor of the offshore company, they wouldnt be able to charge the VAT.
Same as if I transfer all my group land to someone in USA or Israel, LL wouldn't be able to charge me VAT .. so this is something thats possible to get round!
How much does it cost to transfer ownership of an island? And I pay $195 a month for my islands, would the new owner be liable for the increase to $295 a month?
Yours, absolutely furious
Stacey
xxx
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Ingrid Ingersoll
Archived
Join date: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,601
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09-27-2007 14:01
From: Walker Moore I'm even thinking of having RL sex again!  I've been thinking about it for a while too. |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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09-27-2007 14:02
From: Raymond Figtree Message? Announcement? Ha!
Even though this will probably end up helping people like me who rent mainland to residents, I am sickened by how this is all going down. Only a matter of time before I wake up one day to see I have been driven out of SL by some sort of buried-in-the-website policy change.
The way they run this company is outrageous. I totally and completely agree with you. coco |
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Stacey Sugar
Registered User
Join date: 15 Mar 2005
Posts: 75
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09-27-2007 14:03
Poor Anshe Chung ... she's in Germany right? She pays VAT on all her land!!!!
Germany charges 16% VAT!
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Walker Moore
Fоrum Unregular
Join date: 14 May 2006
Posts: 1,458
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09-27-2007 14:03
From: Sling Trebuchet "..Those goods are not subject to VAT, but the tax laws of those states....."
Eh?
On your credit card they are not, but -
Legally, there are Customs Duty and VAT considerations that MUST be taken into consideration - unless you wish to ignore them, which ignoring is not unheard of and is ignored/undetected by Inland/Revenue / Customs / whatever because they have bigger fish to fry.
I cover all transactions in my books the legal way. It's way safer. Of course. We have to pay VAT on goods over a certain value shipped to us from overseas (they're generally intercepted by customs), but if we rent space on a virtual WWW server from a Californian company, nothing would be shipped to us and we'd expect to pay the sales tax rate applicable in California. What are landowners doing in SL but renting space on a server? It's just that no US webhost I've used before (and there have been several) has ever decided to move its payment processing to the EU, so this situation is pretty unique AFAIC.
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Tiziana Catteneo
Registered User
Join date: 19 Feb 2007
Posts: 187
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09-27-2007 14:05
So now europeans are out from land market if they have to pay +17% land fees I think I will dowgrade my account to basic and rent land from an US resident  |
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Walker Moore
Fоrum Unregular
Join date: 14 May 2006
Posts: 1,458
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09-27-2007 14:07
From: Stacey Sugar Concierge are useless, they have no idea whats going on. I would like to know when the VAT rule comes in, now, today or on 1st October? On my secondlife.com/account page, the 17.5% figure is already been applied to my tier amount which is due next month.
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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09-27-2007 14:07
From: Raymond Figtree Yes and yes. Unless the US tax charge is on its way to us, unannounced as well... Well wait a minute, though. Fees for online services are never taxed, at least not tacked on at the end. I don't pay tax on belonging to AOL, for instance. coco |
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Tiana Whitfield
Forever And A Day
Join date: 1 Apr 2007
Posts: 702
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09-27-2007 14:10
Okay... so on the other thread I was like "oh its not so bad"
Just looked at my account page and this should be the last month I pay LL tier as I rent from Sarah Nerd and have given up on mainland completely...
But they have charged me tax... and seeing it there in black and white really is a bummer!
I am surprised as an international company LL could not think to do some sort of announcement.. they would of known it was coming. That makes me want to downgrade to basic more than the tax issue.. that LL could not be arsed to notify their users.
I have never known a company like it.
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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09-27-2007 14:11
From: Stacey Sugar
How much does it cost to transfer ownership of an island? And I pay $195 a month for my islands, would the new owner be liable for the increase to $295 a month?
I think after the transfer they have to pay the $295 rate  The 195$ rate for transfers expired a while back, If I remember right. |
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Sensual Casanova
Spoiled Brat
Join date: 28 Feb 2004
Posts: 4,807
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09-27-2007 14:11
From: Colette Meiji Just think
Anshe Chung and every other european based land owner suddenly is 17.5% less proffitable ..
this is going to really hurt the economy. OUCH! It didn't even occur to me about Anshe.. I bet she is one pissed cookie! |
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Oryx Tempel
Registered User
Join date: 8 Nov 2006
Posts: 7,663
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09-27-2007 14:12
Someone (was it Sugar? I dunno, these posts have been flying) mentioned transferring assets to her partner in Israel. I wonder how many defacto partnerships will spring up in non-EU countries? (And later on, in non-US countries?)
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Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
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09-27-2007 14:13
From: Sensual Casanova OUCH! It didn't even occur to me about Anshe.. I bet she is one pissed cookie! Anshe will be fine, she's a registered company. They can claim VAT back. I need to look into seeing if I can register my company, or how I go about that. |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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09-27-2007 14:14
From: Walker Moore The thing is, when Ebay had to start adding VAT onto items sold by EU based sellers, it didn't matter where in the world the buyer was located. They had to pay it.
You guys in America wanna start praying that another Linden oversight hasn't occurred here because if your payments are being processed in the EU as well, well I don't see why you shouldn't be paying our extortionate rates too. Wait wait wait wait wait. If I live in America andpay tier to LL, a company based in America, why should I pay taxes to Europe? That doesn't make sense. coco |
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Sensual Casanova
Spoiled Brat
Join date: 28 Feb 2004
Posts: 4,807
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09-27-2007 14:14
From: Elgyfu Wishbringer Anshe will get a tax exemption number - just as I am hoping to do.
I declare my takings here to the taxman, so I should be able to offset the VAT - bloody well hope so.
What is really pissing me off here is that we were not told properly. That is both unprofessional and RUDE of the Lindens.
Something this big should be communicated properly to everyone involved. How does one qualify for a tax exemption # and what does that really mean? Just curious.. |
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Stacey Sugar
Registered User
Join date: 15 Mar 2005
Posts: 75
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09-27-2007 14:16
Was me who suggested partnerships with Non-EU members.
Lets see what Anshe does ... puts her land up 16% to cover the VAT ... or transfers her assets to a non-EU corporation or individual. If she charges 16% more for her land, then it will help non-EU land barons make more money, since they would be able to undercut her. Anshe would lose many residents if she charges the 16% on top of their existing fees, especially those members who are not in EU member states, they would be saying "why should we pay for the VAT we aren't in EU".
Yours, feeling better after thinking about Anshe and her tax burden. ..
Stacey
xxx
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Sling Trebuchet
Deleted User
Join date: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 4,548
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09-27-2007 14:17
From: Colette Meiji But
you Dont actually OWN ANYTHING!!
I never paid sales tax for rent.
You are only renting this server space from LL - you dont own it. I don't believe that out tax authorities really want to get into 'virtual assets'. It's much easier to tax money that moves. At the same time, I can see taxation of SL/Metaverse assets coming. For example, where I am, license fees for software are treated as assets for Corporation Tax purposes. I had a ding dong with my local people over annual license fees for a Microsoft developer package. As far as they were concerned, I was adding to the my assets every year. For the most part, in EU, there is no difference between a service and a product for taxation purposes. It's all to to do with taxing the transfer of money. |
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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09-27-2007 14:17
From: Sensual Casanova OUCH! It didn't even occur to me about Anshe.. I bet she is one pissed cookie! Guess this solves the Anshe Wall Mart Plan |
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Alicia Sautereau
if (!social) hide;
Join date: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 3,125
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09-27-2007 14:19
Official announcement from nobody:
Up yours LL, you win, i quit
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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09-27-2007 14:21
This is like paying sales tax on the cable bill =/ .
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