the SL Economy

Gisela, I think you're missing the point.

Yes, there are some people who make enough L$ in-world that they can sell for real money to use in their real lives. But that is ONLY because there are other people in-world who want those L$ and are willing to pay for them.

That has nothing to do with Linden dollars being currency. They are a product with a value to some people who will pay for them. They are not themselves actual money.

Several examples have already been given: There are many, many things that can be sold for value. Many are products, some are less tangible -- You pay for airtime on your cellphone, you pay for access to a gym, you buy tickets for movies and concerts ... all of these are things with some value to a certain segment of the population, but none of them are currency.

There won't be a LindeX if there is no SL, and by deduction I can assure you LL won't make lots of money running it.

The Linden Dollar has value. LL even tries to keep the value consistant.

But the only reason it has value is that other Residents will Buy L$.

LL wont. It doesnt guarantee the value.

Unlike the US dollar - the US government guarantees its value.

Yes that's what an economy is Mic. The economy existed prior to the LindeX and will continue after it's gone.

The problem is that the laws do not allow LL to have a token economy on one hand and then facilitate the tokens into USD on the other. We can do it ourselves, its just that they can't maintain an exchange for it in their own company.


READ THE LAW.

Without getting technical with "debts public and private" can't we just say:


*People buy L$ with USD
*USDs can be exchanged for L$, and visa versa
*People create things in SL from nothing, and make L$ from these products or services, which can be transfered to USD
*Gambling with L$ became illegal
*When I hire freelancers, I pay them in L$ (which is actually USD in my ledger)

These are just a few examples.

Can we not--without getting technical--call this a valid currency. Or is the word "currency" what this actual argument is founded on? In all actuality, we know it is not a "currency" but it sure as hell mirrors one.

From a business owner, employer, employee and consumer standpoint, L$ is a valid currency.

I'm sorry, but they DO have value!

You know how I know?

I make a profit here every month.

I have more US dollars because of the lindens I take out of circulation.

Securities -- stocks -- are investments in companies. If I buy 100 shares of General Electric on the NYSE, I'm offering to give GE my money to use in their business in hopes that my shares will increase in value and I can get back more than I put in.

When I buy L$ I'm offering to trade a few USD for some in-world money. I am a buyer looking for a seller and the Lindex puts buyers ad sellers together (and places some limits on what the price can be.)

Lindex is much more like eBay or Craigslist than it is like a stock exchange.

No Colette gambling is gone. I fully understand that and you are so wrong. I am standing up now for YOU.

God you don't get it?

I am standing up now for SEX.

I am standing up now for LANDLORDS.

I am standing up now for HOLDING HANDS.

I am standing up now for EVERYONE BUT ME.

I am standing up now because I should have stood up a long time ago.

If you want my true viewpoint on this I will tell you it here. I started like 3 years ago and poured my heart and soul into SL. I did it because I believed in it I did it to be the BEST at something. I focused on something ... I answered EVERY SINGLE IM I ever recieved. Every single one and within 24 hours. I can not get a linden to respond to me in over a week and I am willing to bet you I used to get more IMs a day then a linden did.

I don't think you know me Colette.

I won this game from pure hard work and endless hours and being honest and customer satisfaction. I built up everything I had from the ground up from SCRATCH.

I accept that gambling is gone, I actually look at this like this:

I have been given the glorious opportunity to be able to win the same game TWICE.

And I am going to win this game again at the measure of what ever it is I consider it to be a winner in this game.

I'm so lucky I get to do it again, I love challenges.

I do realize it will not be a virtual casino the next time around because I was GOMed.

That's ok, I bend I don't break and it will be just as fun and just as satisfying to me to meet that challenge and win it all over again (understand this winning is winning in my eyes).

But I won it and I intend to win it again. Maybe I will be a hair god? Maybe I will be a land baron? I know I won't own a virtual casino.

But GUESS WHAT. I know when I've been wronged, and I have and LL will not own up to that.

And GUESS WHAT I will do what ever I can to help those whom they will be bull dozing next time.

You have no rights in here it is not your world and it is not your imagination.

I can only hope to lay the foundation here such that WHAT EVER I choose to "win" this game at the next time around there is support in place that LL will not do the same crap AGAIN.

If I become a hair god or a land baron I want everyone standing up for me when LL becomes immoral.

And I am standing up NOW not for gambling.

Do you get it????

I am standing up NOW for sex and for landlords and for creators.

I am standing up NOW for YOU.

not for me. That has passed. I'm now enlightented.

I'm on your side Colette ... what do you do in SL?

Within the Scope of Second Life it is.

Some are trying to make the point that the L$ is an illegal currency or illegal Securities within the US.

Linden Labs doesnt guarantee the L$ at all. It is really only for Second Life.

Those trying to make the argument that the L$ is an illegal currency would have more credibility if their arguments were not on the heels of them losing money due to the gambling ban.

I never said they dont have value.



But think about this. How much need for L$ does someone have who doesnt play Second Life?

Are you really standing up right now?



Get over yourself, bro!

LL cannot sell $L and maintain an exchange, virtual or not, in their own corporation, which is exactly why they have made it a point that they are only acting as agent, but in fact they are not acting as an agent because they continue issuing more $L.

$L is no different than a virtual stock because if you buy $L basically you are hoping someone will pay more for it, or that you can exchange it for something with value, so it appears they are acting like a company issuing stock, i.e. selling virtual securities. ALL BECAUSE THEY OWN THE LINDEX.

I see your reasoning, unfortunately the law is open to interpretation and there is no precedent for this. LL is taking a huge risk that the law will rule in their favor. I don't believe LL has the resources to test it.

It will only take one person and cost them exactly zero to file a qui tam action against LL to prove it out. Whereas LL will be subject to defending itself against such an action.

I say the smart move is to ditch the LindeX.

What if--let's say--I get hired in RL to do a design for a client. And instead of getting paid in USD, I ask the client to pay me in L$ (assume they setup an account or whatever).

Is this now using the L$ as an actual currency because I've been asked to be paid from a real world activity through SL? I'm wondering when the "within the scope of SL" is broken...or if it's even possible.

Just curious.

It might be if there weren't factual evidence to back it up.

What if you get hired in RL to do a design for a client. And instead of getting paid in USD, you ask the client to pay you in peanuts (assume they go to the grocery store or whatever)

Is it now using peanuts an actual currency becuase you did a real world activity for peanuts?

------------------------------

My point is L$ is only a virtual currency inside one Virtual World, Second Life. It has value, of course, becuase people want to buy things in Second Life and will trade USD to get L$ to buy those things.

It has no other value.

The reality is though that people do not use it for just Second Life. Real incomes are made here.



This might actually hold water were there no evidence to back it up. Don't confuse yourself with the facts though.

But my boss has been paying me peanuts for years!

Technically speaking it's barter, which should be claimed for the value of the services being bartered. I don't know how many people actually do that though. When I've had clients pay me in L$ I simply claim it as income when I cash it out. Not before. How the client handles it is up to them.

See then you know for Dam sure peanuts isnt real money then!

The only thing that gives USD value to Lindens as far as the law is concerned is the LindeX. If the LindeX did not exist, the $L would have no USD value as stated in the TOS.

So? Why does that make the L$ an illegal currency? As long as people pay their taxes when they trade it for USD$ what is the issue?

If you sold peanuts you have to pay taxes on them too.




You and Chilly began your crostposting marathons on the heels of the gambling ban- The language of the posts themselves back my statement up - dont be annoyed that the coincidence did not remain unnoticed.

The LindenX is a brokerage.

It is not a buyback service.

LOL, teehee.

My opinion, and I admit it's a guess: They're afraid of credit card companies shutting off payments.

The UIGEA -- the new law that took effect in July -- makes it illegal for credit card issues to pay online gambling sites. CC issuers being businesses who hope to not get charged with crimes, may well decied to err on the side of caution and cut off payments to anything that looks like it might feature online gambling.

I am not sure whether Second Life gambling would really be illegal under the law, but the government would first have to allege it, then get an indictment and go through a trial and appeals and so forth to prove it.

Credit card companies don't have to do any of that. They just have to send a letter to Linden Lab saying, Sorry, we won't be paying you anymore. And even if LL had some right to appeal that, they could count on a large portion of their membership going away while they contested it.

And then the sky really would fall.

I think LL has erred on the side of caution themselves by banning in-world activities that could be grounds for the CC companies to turn off the tap. Maybe they went too far, but I don't think they did it because they feared prosecution. I think they feared loss of revenue. It was a business decision.

As long as Mr. Peanut does not facilitate the trading of peanuts for USD by maintaining an exchange in his Peanut business, then peanuts will just be peanuts. If however, he creates a company and calls it say the PeanutdeX and facilitates the trading of peanuts for USD, then he has a problem. And if the law doesn't side with him, you won't get any more peanuts because Mr. Peanut will be forced to close down.

My point is exactly the same as yours. $L is a virtual currency inside Second Life. And yes it has value because the creative production and activities of people who live, work, and play inside Second Life created and continue to support an economy based on $L. As individuals they not only trade it for Second Life, but they also trade it for USD, just as they do in many other games. This is not illegal.

Once LL brought in the LindeX and began FACILITATING the trading of $L for USD themselves, it changed the whole thing. It is illegal to create your own currency. That's why they say in their TOS that $L has no value, otherwise they would in fact be doing that very thing. They contradict their own TOS by virtue of the LindeX. And this is where the shaky ground lies.