"reasonable expectation of privacy"

You can throw all the smokescreens and red herrings you want all over this argument. But the fact of the matter is, you did something that was likely illegal, got caught, and got busted. That should be all the confirmation you need that what you did was wrong. And pretty much everyone in this thread is in general concensus about that. End of story.

Now, I really don't like the smell of troll, so I'm-a outa here!

But unfortunately they still do not realize that they might be rebroadcast. This was clearly demonstrated about hour or so ago. There was a lot of chat on the OP's link with some guys talking about smoking hash. I went to Ahern, located the active speakers and sent an IM that there was some asshat rebroadcasting their conversation and gave the link to the stream. There has not been one single peep out of Ahern since then.

Nope, because there is no avatar present on the map within range.

Your feed is accessing the servers in a manner that bypasses the SL client interface.

there is no avatar, nor is there any restrictions on what is heard because your method does not interact with the SL servers.

In other words you are bypassing the safeguards and restrictions put in place in what amounts to an exploitable manner.

There is nothing okay about what you are doing, pretty much anyone here will say the same thing.

You're arguing it's okay, and the way you are doing it is like someone that knows they are going to be facing a chat session with the governance team.

Have you actually bothered to read vivox's API docs?

Active speakers is controled by vivox's servers, not LL's.

Have you ever had a sim crash, gone back to it when it restarted and been able to converse with people who had went down with the sim and not yet restarted there client? If so you know you can see them in the dialog.

This is not my evidence, only an example I hope you have come across. I suggest you go hunt down the old docs on the wiki.

im simply providing the facts, not circumstantial fiction.

When connecting to vivox's servers, the OP must provide a position he is listening from in the sim. This is so vivox's servers can generate active speakers, and process the audio to make it spacial.

They are not shown on the map this is the key part.

nor is there an avatar present.

that is why there is an assumption of privacy with the managed distance set by LL for the voice service.


you see many still there when they teleport out, but you know they are faded in the list because they are out of range.

Active speakers does not = mini map or visual representation

To be honest, if anyone were to go to the location and inform all present of the op's actions... the entire welcome area could report them for ToS and CS violations: Disclosure and harrasment per the information in the wiki in regards to recording of chat/voice

oh really ? ive been listening to the stream myself and didnt hear anyone discuss this "im" you had sent - perhaps they dont care, especially since the topic of the day seems to be about "hash" - lol - anyone can join the conversation and decide to rebroadcast it or record it, its the question of not knowing who is doing it, it could be more than a single person, the link could be distributed through hundreds of profiles, it could be passed around from person to person.

I am not in support of the OP. In fact I think what he is doing is morally wrong.

I am merely trying clarify some of the technical facts people have gotten wrong.

unfortunately, the agent accessing the voice chat is indeed accessing it in the same manner any avatar can access it, the only difference is, the avatar is not logged on - you see, the same parameters given to Vivox's servers in order to facilitate the same "3d" enahanced with "distance" type of general voice chat is sent while connecting, you cant connect without providing this information (x/y/z coordinates and sim IP), the distance is calculated from those coordinates on the avatar and the coordinates for each avatars position to the voice channel.

for the record, the voice chat is not being recorded. - you seem to be on a roll for assuming that it is - active speakers makes more sense in making a determination about who is in the public conversation than a visual inspection of the avatars nearby. - i dont think people really care, you get plenty of idiots in the welcome area that play music, scream, curse, insult others and redicule others - people seem to be smart enough to know that conversations that take place in public voice in the welcome area have no reasonable expectancy of privacy when you have plenty of idiots listening enough to ridicule others speaking

also, for the record, the reason why the agent is accessing the public voice chat without having to be or stay logged on is simple, it saves bandwidth.
there is no need to have the agent logged into SL's server to sit around and collect needless agent/object updates that consume bandwith when the agents purpose has already been determined

Are "private" or group voice sessions also so easily eavesdropped on and rebroadcast?

eavesdroped, No.

Rebroadcast, well, you don't need a special program to do that I can do it with my old walkman and some cassets.

if they are, i have no interest in doing so and i have not attempted to try.
my interest was simple, the ability to listen to the welcome area public voice chat outside of SL.
if i decided to place a microphone outside of my NYC apartment and listen, how is that any different ?
the same analogy applies to when you sit down in a restaurant or diner, you honestly cannot tell me you didnt overhear a public conversation take place in the seat next to yours - its obvious, if i was talking to someone in a diner and expected more privacy, i would leave to go to a private place or write it down on paper.

I doubt it. Private chats you do have a fair expectation of privacy unlike say and public voice chat where it is essentially a public square and even if you don't see a listener you have no guarantees that they aren't there.

*shrugs* I don't think the issue of "reasonable expectation of privacy" is relevant to the question of whether LL should allow this. The real question is, is this the way LL wants their service to be used? Do residents LIKE this capability?

Of course, anyone in SL could record any audio they hear, and replay it for the entertainment of the masses (even if it's illegal, it can be done). However, SL's UI creates the distinct impression that such a person would have to be within cam distance to do this with voice chat - and thus would have to be 'visible' to the speakers.

I can't think of any real harm that can be done using this that couldn't be done by an ill-intentioned avatar or bot. But it disconcerts me - I don't really WANT the service to have this capability. Therefore the Jira: SVC-3875.
.

thats good and all, and i agree with you on some parts, but i doubt a JIRA issue will solve the problem - if you need privacy to talk in voice, dont use Vivox, use MSN/AIM/YAHOO - if you need explicit privacy, use the telephone

i will tell you how you can connect to voice in a rudementary way using the SL viewer without having to stay logged on to SL.

first, you need two programs.
Process Explorer & TCP View

open and log into SL.

open both Process Explorer and TCP View

minimize SL

look for the process thread in Process Explorer for "SecondLife.exe" and suspend it

look for the process thread in TCP View for SecondLife.exe that shows a connection to one or more SIM's (they will have port :12043) and wait for the state of the connection to say "CLOSE_WAIT"

once the state shows "CLOSE_WAIT", close the connection in TCP View to the one or more SIM's SecondLife.exe was connected to

go to Process Explorer and resume the suspended process for SecondLife.exe

now you can talk in voice without having to be on SL

the Vivox client uses a "loopback" from the viewer to send coordinates, so whatever position you were in before closing the connection is the last coordinate sent to the Vivox server

if any other agents come near the last coordinate given, they will show up in the active speakers list.

this can open another world of possibilities in a case where more than one instance of SL can be opened, you can "place" your voice in one sim with the first instance of SL, and the second instance of SL, you can have your avatar in a different sim. (obviously only operating one voice on the first instance of SL)

however, two voice connections are possible with a single avatar where you can have one voice in one location and the other in another location, but with only one avatar actually logged into SL, the logged in avatar will have the voice coordinates attached to it, but the second avatar will have static coordinates, each voice on two instances of the viewer operating

well here is a "could be" situation...

you are at odds with someone who hangs out at Ahern, and you want to know what they are saying, especially when you are not around, so you remotely listen (what you do with the stream after that, as in sharing it or whatever could be for many reasons, one being, proof to someone about someone)

now I am not saying this is what you are doing, just giving you an example since you wanted to know how it would be considered spying and why anyone would want to.


It sounds a lot like... PI work, following someone, finding out what they talk about, so you can report back to someone else (reminds me of cheaters type thing)

again not saying you are doing this, that was a general "you"

one would consider that if you were going to say anything about another agent, you would be saying it in a more "private" manner, there is no doubt that someone else could be a "snitch" and tell that avatar in question what they overheard

this is true, but one could also say that what you are doing is just plain wrong

and saying you are doing it just to listen to the chatter at ahern just sounds full of holes

(not to mention why the hell would anyone want to listen to the chatter at ahern, unless they have a specific reason to, other than, I just want to listen)

SL is not that intense on a PC, heck just log in and listen (you are doing it this way, obviously, because you do not want them to know you are there )(at least that is how it appears to me)

*shrug*

I am just glad I do not go to ahern and only use voice when working (assisting new folks and could not care less who hears me)

have a good day

Well it doesnt have to be ahern could be any sim that is public.

doesn't have to be ahern, but according to the OP, and his profile it is Ahern...

*shrug* still dunno why anyone would want to do something like this...

the truth is, i just want to listen to it, but i dont want to have to be there and stand around to hear it, id rather continue with my tasks at my sim and listen to the chatter remotely instead - there are times where conversations are quite interesting and even funny, and times where its silent and boring, even times where you have some idiot who is aware of it being streamed and decides to play DJ