Reputation System

Hmmm.. what if you had to have enough positive rates in order to give negative rates? That way newer people could not rate much (they can't afford it anyways), and someone not well liked would slowly lose the power to neg rate.

Way out there yes... but hmmmm

My question is why there should be a rating system in the first place. It seems so "high school"... a popularity contest, basically.

I'm sure in the beginning of SL it probably seemed like a "nice" idea for people to be rated or neg rated based on whatever about their av and or SL personality. Well - 9 months in SL has showed me that it is quite a joke to have any type of ratings system that any avatar may participate in. They don't mean anything anyway - oh wait... except how much $ am I getting at the end of the week do to a good rating. (again doesn't mean anything)

If you "have" to have a rating...why don't Lindens give out ratings to those residents they see making a contribution to the majority? That would at least mean a lil more than some random newbie or known trouble maker walking around giving a neg rate for no reason at all and then taking off. Or someone just positively rating you for the hell of it.

Back to my original thought tho... no... no ratings system. It's a joke.

Of course this is just my opinion.

I've made it through a half a year on the current rating system and never received even 1 negative rate until recently. It was a misunderstanding and they took it back later on. then after that i was in a sandbox having a little free time with my friends. We were sharing gestures and sounds we were amused by. then this person came by complaining and name calling me (nobody else, just me). I told them to mute me if its a problem. All of a sudden i get triple negged. So I negged them back, and got several of my friends to do the same.

The marks are still there. And i choose not to play SL anymore. When i do login i just stay on my land and await friends to wander by. Knowing the negatives are tagged to me, feels degrading cuz i do not believe i earned them. I have to agree with myra in a previous post. Its just another griefer tool. Why not just stick a copy of the shield breaker and C4 in the inv library and be done with it. People will always abuse things like that. I would like the entire rating system gone anyway. i can live without the extra linden each week. But if you insist on another type of rating system, I would have to ask for the following.

1 category instead of 3. and it should just be for behavior.
No negatives since all they do is make people upset. I totally hate drama queens.
Each rate should REQUIRE a written reason. [Thanks for helping me. here's a +1]
have a DataLog of all who rated you so you can easily return the favor.
RATE FOR FREE! Ya with me here? (and if this effects stipend, then wipe out the bonuses cuz i wana rate for free dangit )

If there has to be negative ratings, it should be only if a abuse report has been filed and a linden took action on it. (if you've been banned for griefing and such).

I'm a fairly new resident, so thus far my rating experience has been pretty neutral.

That being said, I can see the problems with neg rating in that giving a deserved one will almost always result in you're getting one back. One of the things another game I played did was to limit each person to one rating, positive or negative per day.

Regarding the three types of rating, I like a builder rating, but I don't think you should be able to give that directly to a person, only to items that they have built. If I see a house/shirt/whatever that I really like, I'll rate that. That would cut down on the automatic triple rating.

Finally, I think neg ratings should have a life expectancy...after x days/weeks/months whatever of IN GAME time, with no additional neg ratings and a trend of positive ratings, start reducing the value of the neg toward 0. That way people that have been mis-rated will have a chance to have their record expunged.

Another thing i forgot to bring up about the negative ratings. I noticed from keeping an eye on peoples profiles, if they get enough negative ratings, people begin to neg them on a daily bases. One day its 5 points, the next day there at 8 then 12. I think its like a copycat thing. Some people see them with a number of negative points and assume there a bad person and decide to add to it. Which is why you should never leave your things laying out in public areas. Now for your own land, i cant say that. You have to have a house and stuff lol.

What if prims were the reward and not L cash? How many griefers and abuse cases are simply driven by boredom? Why shouldn't prims be awarded for good behavior, and taken away for bad behavior - including sandbox privileges?

The whole economy, including poorly designed incentive systems like the present reputation system, doesn't work because its not based on the single scarcest resource: prims. Linden cash is virtually unlimited in supply, so a stipend or a stipend based on behavior doesn't really matter if its not fixed to an absolute value in the scarcest critical resource. To make a poor metaphor - its not the depth of the ocean that matters, its the amount of air on the surface where the boats float that does.

Land is a poor proxy for prims since the number of prims is fixed per land increment. An unlimited supply of cash doesn't work since there are no scale economies to owning land/prims. Therefore any incentive system is flawed, including the reputation system.

What most people seem to be talking about is a dispute resolution or legal framework - not an incentive system. Since there are no political entities in SL we presently confer those duties on the Lindens, but I'm not so sure they ever intended to perform these. They may be waiting to see what kind of political systems emerge, or should we all simply elect Anshe to represent us and provide those services?

Other thoughts? Come on, I'm listening....

i think its a good thing. it lets other playes see what kind of person they are interacting with. for example many people refuse to buy anything from ebay unless the sellers rep is high enough. although i would like to see the rep L$ bounus go. its reward enough to have a good reputation. another feature i would love to see is the ability to add a 24-32 char discription on bad/good ratings(esspecialy to bad ratings.. ive offten wondered why someone had thier bad ratings) <- once again similar to ebay.

ps, would love to see who is leaving the ratings too. whos rating you is almost as important as being rated

They do, in a way.. All ratings decay after 6 months..

Please delete this message.

I have not been back here in sometime now but I like the ideas here. Sl has changed so very much in the last say 6 months and something really needs to be done.

Well has it been 6 months yet since they supposedly started the decay process? Cause I have no idea how i got mine, and haven't gotten any new ones since this decay thing started. I still have all 3 of mine I think it I may have run over a newbie in the welcome area or something or someone didn't like me promoting the Snail races when i first started having them when I was giving away free Snail Av's to everyone IN the welcome area along with a note saying when and where the races were. I stopped doing that because of something someone passed me a note that looked like it might have been official saying you can't solicit people in the welcome area. Well I've been waiting and waiting and thought well 6 months they'll go away. So either there being replaced as they go or they just don't go away. My positive ones seem go every week I have rated maybe 4 people since the new system. Oh and it looks like I gave out a neg rating too that's at least 8 months old whys that still there? I don't even know how I managed that. Sorry to whoever ended up with that. It was accidentental.

Just some thoughts

I like the bonus system, however it does favour the social, more outgoing types. It seems unfair to those who contribute greatly by creating beatiful objects etc.for the world in which we reside but who dont like mixing. Maybe the bonuses should be paid on a combination of things ...

like time spent on world

And maybe in a really positive nice world good deeds should be rewarded.

Maybe ppl who rate should get bonuses too, because this would encourage ppl to give as well as receive.

I dont think negative ratings should be nallowed, there should be other avenues where problems caused by ppl can be sorted out and they can have a chance to put the their side. A negative rating system doesnt allow for justice, a person is labelled without a fair "trial" basically.

Anyway just some thoughts for consideration

be well and at peace
dana Archer

Remove all monetary "rewards" and then do whatever you want. Ratings should have zero affect on anyone's income. I've always been against votebooths/ratings, because they have always been, are being, and will always be gamed -- as long as you keep throwing free money down the ratings toilet. Money for nothing. Brilliant.

Now, on the flip side, I fully support "ratings" or other means of showing progress (or negativity), as long as it's not tied into anything tangible (aka L$). Like the leader board, it's something to glance at on occasion, and that's it. It's a simple progress report, of sorts. That's all it should be.

How many times does this topic even have to keep popping up? Certainly isn't the first time it's been discussed, I've a hunch it won't be the last.

--Bos

I'm willing to hedge my bets that most of the people saying, "No ratings at all" and "no monetary bonus!" are quite well off in SL and RL; they can just sell their latest overpriced outfit, or buy a few thousand lindens, and they're fine and dandy. I'm not really a fan of socialism in RL, because.. well, I'm not. Giving the reasons would start a fight. But I AM a fan of socialism in SL. Me, and hundreds of other players depend on the rating bonus to have any bit of money. If you're not incredibly creative, or have the financial situation to just buy lindens when you want them, the "no ratings, no money bonus" world would, like the real, capitalist world, often quit being fun. Granted, greifers can abuse the system, but come on you capitalist pigdogs, think of someone besides yourself.

While I understand the basis your statements, I can't really agree. Now admittedly, I'm one of the builder/marketer capitalist pig-dogs LOL but I haven't always been. There was a time I was a blatant newbie.

In the real world, people don't just give you money because you want it or because you're a nice guy. You have to work for it, find ways to earn it, etc. Linden Labs isn't responsible for seeing to it that we have spendable income. They hand out a few hundred when you first log on. After that, their part is over.

I agree, there needs to be some way for the non-builder-oriented non-scripters to get L$. Here are several ways to do so:

1) One way is to simply purchase them from IGE.com or GOM. This is the most logical and sensible way. If you want luxuries in the game, pay for them rather than expecting Linden Labs to hand out the funds.

2) Lacking the personal funds to buy L$ (in which case, stop playing SL and go spend that time earning some extra bucks), there ARE jobs around SL that can be pursued. I know people who make decent money acting as bouncers for clubs, running tringo games, etc. None of these jobs require builder/marketing skills.

3) You can CREATE work for yourself if needed... all it takes is a little imagination. Agreed some folks don't have imagination, so...

4) You can enter contests and win L$. I won 5000L my first 10 days here just by entering contests. There are some merchants that don't make that kind of cash.

5) You can always put on raggy clothing, hold a tin cup and beg alms, blessing kind people for their generosity.

If a person doesn't want to do any of that (whether because they just want to play the game or are just plain lazy) that's fine too. The fact is: you don't need L$ to play Second Life. For the first three weeks I was on this board, I didn't spend a dime. People were friendly and gave me things. I won L$ at contests. I had all kinds of fun without spending anything. By the time those 3 weeks were over, I had clothing, weapons, homes, all kinds of goodies filling my inventory. All it takes is being friendly with folks, and they'll be friendly back.

(And for the record, a big THANK YOU to all the people that so graciously welcomed me to Second Life. I have done my best since then to pass on the kindness).

So the concept that you just HAVE to have L$ to play this game isn't really true-- nor in my mind that L$ should be tied into the ratings system.

OK, all done now.

What about a submit neg court? you submit your neg, with the reason included, and they are judged individualy based on there merits also giving the neged av a fair chance to defend there side of the argument.. sounds like a lot of admin but Im sure there are enough people in second life willing to take on the role of arbitrator, this way people could be fairly punished for negitives, and not just neged because "the dude thinks your lame ass".
If this was the case, negs could be taken as far more serious a thing to have on your profile, at the moment they could be for anything no matter how small...
I also think this idea is pretty fun (think oops up in court in 2 days) LOL

... but maybe amplified in this case, since I'm nowhere near a capitalist pigdog --- not that there's anything wrong with that! --- and I'm also a still-wet-behind-the-subwoofers newbie, and yet all of the good Mr. Wishbringer's comments make perfect sense to me. SL is so terrific partly because it offers so many choices and options (as opposed to the relatively limited choices in by-the-book gameworlds), and the ability to make such choices is a great power, and with great power comes ... well, I prolly don't need to quote <i>Spider-Man</i> at anyone, do I?

Nor do I need to --- but perhaps someone <i>should</i>, to accommodate the likes of Vector Spaight and to also reap the big bucks --- author a book called <i>Second Life on Five Linden Dollars a Day</i> in order to reproduce what's common knowledge to anyone who's enjoyed exploring the various sims, dancing in the clubs, chatting with friends, rezzing prims in a sandbox, tubing down rivers, riding jet-skis around Parrot Island, getting lost in one of Loki Pico's mazes, suggesting to even-newer newbies that they go ahead & grab that piece of cheese in the giant mousetrap, et cetera, ad inFUNitum, for the equivalent of, say, 25 U.S. pennies. Or for <i>nothing</i>, even, if you don't want to buy yourself a glitzy nose-ring in the midst of it all.

I'm just, as they say, saying.

Frankly I like the system just the way it is. Maybe without the negative ratings. The way I look at it is, if you cant say anything good say nothing at all. When I give out 25L per rating you can best believe I consider that person worthy. Giving rewards sounds nice but what about those who dont design/ or sell clothes ect, host events or care about how often or long we sign in. But only sign in to have fun?

How about this concept:

No neg ratings. They're worthless and used by griefers.

Positive ratings only... and the L25 goes to the RECIEVER of the pos rating, not the Lindens.

I mean, what did Linden Labs do to earn the L25? They're not the ones being positively rated.

I'd rather give the individual the 25 - 50 or 75 Ls
Especially if a newbie. They need it.

Q

The problem with the money going to the person receiving the rating, is we are back to free ratings and just swapping them. We still need a better system

Considering the ratings situation there's several concerns to be addressed:

1) People like what they get in stipend bonuses from ratings but don't like people farming them. I suggest uncoupeling ratings and cash rewards. The rating itself should be the reward. Though I think raising the base stippend across the board to make up for the loss of the weekly bonuses is in order.

2) The currnet system is ripe for abuse for both positive and negative ratings and dosen't really mean much in the reputation department which is it's function. I agree that the system is broken. The key to fixing that is once again, remove the incentive to abuse the system. I like the below idea as it actually seems like it would be representative of what people think of you.



I really like the idea of having a form for "Describe this avatar: [Attribute list]" where there's both positive and negative attributes to choose from, pest, scriptor, leader, helper, griefer, etc. WIth that in mind, you dont really need a seperate negative rating. Just some catagories are positive others aren't. Besides, there's already report abuse for when you have a problem with another user.

Just my 2L

I'm for the above catagorized rating descriptor system or no system at all with a flat stippend payout model.

Something to consider: Ratings costs act as a financial sink in the economy, so really the moeny dosen't go to the lindens as much as it is removed from circulation.

i have to agree with you most time i make what i want and on ocasion i may buy a few things but over all my lindeds are just pileling up at sevral moths at at time i had 10k jsut sitting around keeping in mine i did buy things as well