Reputation System

Don't get paranoid Anima! It's probably just a configuration error. I'll make sure someone takes a look and fixes the problem.

As I understand it, threads are supposed to be created here by Linden when they want your feedback on something, and you're supposed to use feature suggestions for starting your own threads...

Yeah - what he said! Eggy knows the forums better than I do.

Thanks as always, Eggy!

They mean less than nothing!

If I really want to give a person a meaningful gift, I can pay them $25 by using the appropriate button on their Profile. The rating button should be removed from the Profile because it precisely does _not_ give them anything anymore. It is a meaningless token.

Permit me to give you a meaningless token, Wayfinder. Here's a <*@Prrrt!>.

There! Do you feel better for receiving it? Wouldn't you have felt better and more apprecoated if I'd given you L$25? That string of characters has _exactly_ the same value as a bonus under the new system.
Zilch, in making people feel better or in any other terms you care to name.

And all that stuff about removing L$ from the economy, money sinks, etc., is just baloney. Let's all remember. While this state of affairs continues, every bonus paid for
a) gives its recipient nothing of value
b) gives Linden $25.

I think you totally missed my point.

No, you shouldn't have to work to play SL... and you don't have to.

But at the same time, if you're not willing to work (or do one of the mulittudinous other things available to gain L$) ya shouldn't whine about not having L$. L$ are a BONUS... not an inherent right in playing SL. SL *can* be played without L$ at all. If folks want more L$... they should be willing to put in SOME kind of effort to get them... not just expect LL to plunk them in their lap.

Man, I appreciate this is your opinion, but frankly, couldn't be more beyond left field.

No, L25 would be of little or no value to me. If the ratings sytem worked like it's supposed to... then every time you received a ratings point... it would be a statement from someone that they like what you did. That has to do with reputation... not a piddly L25 that would be gone the moment I turn around. The rating will last the entire time I play this game as a positive statement about who I am. That L25 would vanish in someone's vendor and be gone. As far as money sinks being baloney... LOL... I hope you have a day job.

*tosses her .02$L onto the discussion table*

If LL thinks that the bonuses for Ratings needs to go, then so be it. They have a better overall view of the whole.

However, I don't agree with still charging the 25$L for each rating, though neither do I think they should be free.

I would suggest that Residents EARN Rating points as they earn their weekly stipend. Basic accounts could earn one Rating per week and Premium accounts earn four Ratings per week (to be given, not to be added to thier own). These Stipend Rating Points would be non-accumulating, so they need to be used in the week they are given and can not be saved. This would prevent someone from giving too many Ratings at once (ie, no "Rating Parties" for friends).

A side system could be added to allow Residents to purchase Ratings above thier weekly stipend if they wished. To this, I think the 25$L or perhaps increasing it slightly, would be a good idea.

On a side note: To those that think you don't need $L to play, you are wrong. Yes, you can log in and chat and socialize and all that, but even the most basic of doing anything to your AV costs $L and the stipend just doesn't cover that.

Many Residents provide oppertunities to work, but the population is growing beyond that to where there are more workers than work (Unemployment in SL?). With scripted copy to make items for sale after creation and automated vendors, most jobs that are in RL are absent in SL (manufacturing and sales).

And no, I don't have a solution, and no, I'm not complaining. I'm stating observations of what I've seen in my time in SL (short as that might be so far).

Done rambling. We now return you to your normal ranting. lol

~Jessy

You know, that's actually not a bad idea. First time I've heard anyone mention something like this.



Actually, I spent my first 3 weeks here without spending hardly a dime. Sure, L$ are nice if someone wants extras... but there are so many things to do on SL that don't require L$-- or alternately-- even GIVE L$ for doing them-- I just don't understand folks being upset because LL decides to stop just giving them away.



I agree that there simply isn't enough "work" on SL to keep people in L$... and much of the "work" too often takes the form of "hey, wanna be a hooker?".

However, there are SO many ways to get L$ on SL... that there's just no reason to whine about not having L$. I hate to take the hard line there... but I've had too many people call me and others "capitalists"... just because we (gasp) are willing to work and put a little effort into getting our L$... like making a profit for efforts spent is somehow a bad thing. (present company excluded of course. I appreciate the sensible approach of your post. So this post is just a "general comment" rather than a response to your message).

I can appreciate that when folks have an L$ income and that's taken away... it can be a bit of a shock. But it's not like they're BROKE; I mean, even BASIC users get L50 per week... frankly for doing nothing. Although some people don't like to admit it or view it this way... Second Life *is* built on a virtual economy. When I first came here I didnt' like it any more than anyone else-- but that's how it is. So if people are going to participate in the SL platform, they need to understand the reality that this system is based around a very real economy. There is commerce here, business here, etc etc and those of use who choose to EARN our livings rather than expecting it to be handed to us on a platter are not bad guys (nor are we "sick" as one brilliant user so sublty put it). We're the ones who work to provide the bling for which everyone wants L$ in the first place (and if anyone thinks building/scripting/marketing is easy... come try my 6-12 hour days and see how you do). I'd wager that for the last year, I've worked as hard and long at SL as anyone holding down a RL job. Many merchants here do.

But that's ok. We enjoy it. If someone doesn't want to actually make some effort to receive a reward... there are SO many other ways to gain L$. You can get L$ for playing games... for entering contests... playing trivia quizes. I mean, how much easier does it get than to stand around a place for an hour and DANCE and have L$ handed to you for just letting an avatar and an animation go at it?

So I don't mean to be without sympathy, but those who are moaning because they don't have enough L$... I just have to say they might want to stop being so self-focused and look at the big picture. As has been repeatedly pointed out... Second Life is not a "game". It is a society. (Well, yes, it's a game... but.. LOL.. that's a long debate in itself). If individuals want to play it as a game... then collect all the freebies you can find (and there are TONS of them) and forget the L$. If you want L$... take advantage of the myriad ways to get them. Stop looking at LL as some kind of sugar daddy that owes us L$ for doing them the favor of playing their FREE game.

As someone else pointed out... try to find other online games that pay you to play their system. Nope-- they charge. So maybe folks need to be happy with the allowance that LL gives out each week (even to freebie, basic members) and realize that every economy-based system has to have controls in place to prevent rampant inflation.

OK, I done now. Where did I put that free ice cream cone someone just gave me? mmmm... chocolate even...

'Left field', I assume, refers to a game that's seen the same way by its participants? (I'm located in the UK where we play different games, usually badly!) Where we differ here, though, is over equally valid but different perspectives.

In two ways. Firstly, you want a token of appreciation that's lasting, but just a token: a sort of 'certificate of merit' to hang on your wall. I want appreciation that's real, but ephemeral. I can do something with tranches of $25 that I can't do with certificates, and my self-esteem doesn't depend on such tokens. (I'm not being rude: I said equally valid & I mean it! I get self-esteem mainly from the kindness other people show me in our SL interchanges, and a monetary payment is a nice bonus.)

Secondly, the 'money sink' business. It's baloney not because the economic theory is wrong (I understand the argument that SL inflation needs controlling, and am quite secure in my day job thank you!) but because of the way this particular 'sink' has been applied. Why not control inflation by manipulating the L$-RL$ exchange rate? Much more effective, I should have thought.

As it is, we have a Rate button that pays Linden L$25 which they convert to RL$ but has no practical esteem value; and a Pay button by which we can show appreciation to each other in practical ways: the $25 goes to a person here in SL who can choose to exchange for L$25 or not, _but which most people don't use for that purpose_. Fiscal control and the expression of esteem have become muddled.

So there you have it: control inflation by controlling the exchange rate; relabel the pay button as a _real_ Rate button; do away with the useless Rate button.

OK, that message is a little more reasonable.

The term "left field" is an American colloquialism which means a ball was hit/thrown so hard and wildly that it went beyond normally accepted boundaries. When folks are called "sick" or "capitalists" just because they're willing to work to achieve what they want... that's "way out beyond left field".

I understand the points you're making in this message. Simply a difference of opinion-- and I can respect that.

I especially understand people's ire here after talking with a friend last night who told me that she used to make L500 a week from ratings stipends. That's quite a hit to take. As a result, she decided to sell her land and home because she could no longer afford them, which is a shame.

Now that's a valid decision. If someone doesn't like what LL does... one way to respond is to pack up and close the pocketbook. Another optin of course, would have been to keep her land and find another way to pull down L500 a week. There are lots of ways to do so. But I can surely understand her being upset and just deciding to close it all. I did the same thing when they altered the mentor program months back. Linden Lab stopped paying mentors to hold quality game events and would only pay them if they promoted SL-oriented events (such as building classes, newbie classes, etc). I wasn't about to work for US$1 an hour to promote Linden Lab interests... so I quit the program and went on to promote my OWN interests. I opened up a good-size merchanting concern, promoted my group until it became huge, and wound up (sigh) managing 3 sims (what was I thinking?). LOL

So yes, there are options. But I can understand why folks are up in arms right now about losing ratings stippends. I hadn't kept track myself and had no idea they could bring in so much income. But, at the same time, I can see that the whole ratings system is totally bolluxed (like quite a few things on SL)... and frankly needs totally replaced with something more valid. But a whole book could be written on that... and about everyone would disagree with each other on the matter.

Maybe something more valid than ratings would be a "comment" system on a users profile (with user response ability) that would act somewhat like a personal forum. But then... that would be widely abused too, wouldn't it? There are no easy answers.

Just one note on this: you think people are screaming at LL controlling ratings... wait until you'd hear them scream if LL manipulated L$ rates. The buyers would scream when they were high... the sellers would scream when they were low, and LL would be always the bad guy.

I actually one time recommended they set the L$ at a flat $4 / 1000 and just let everyone play the game, period. As logical and simple as that idea is... a whole forum went nuts over that one. There were screams of socialism, screams about some sort of ethereal "freedom", screams about supply/demand, screams about buyer "rights" and all other sorts of nonsense... none of which was presented with even an ounce of evidence or common sense behind it. People became emotional, frothed at the virtual mouth and probably would have hung me if possible for even suggesting that L$ might do better with a constant, stabilized value. (Note, there were some users who agreed and we all just sat and shook our heads at how people on forums sometimes seem to shift their brains into low gear before posting).

Never did settle the issue at all. So trust me in this one... let LL start manipulating the L$ up and down, and a lynch mob will form.

Trying hard here to keep my post unemotional to avoid being banned, but SINCE WHEN is calling someone a "capitalist" an INSULT???????

I guess it could be in the same category as calling someone from the U.S. an "American". I'm sure there are people on both sides of the pond that wound consider that an insult, but not many that would accept that its a a universally derogatory term. "Capitalist pig" is another matter - I didn't say NOR imply that.

ANYWAY...

I also didn't in ANY way imply that people should not have to work at what they wish to achieve (not sure I believe it, but that was NOT the content of my post - it was your spin on it).

I *DO* disagree that SL is a game of wealth building. Wealth building is an option, but should NEVER be a necessity. There are plenty of games people play with the express intent of wealth building. And there are plenty of people that play SL with the express intent of wealth building.

My personal belief is that if the Lindens turn it into a wealth building game, a LOT of people will vote with their feet and take their "wealth" elsewhere. I know darn good and well that I will. It will not be long before the next SL pops up on the horizon. The environment that is most capable at making it EASY to play, NOT hard, will "win".

And I don't think there is a soul in SL that wouldn't laugh in your face if you suggested that you can have an enormously pleasurable experience in SL without the ability to conduct commerce (i.e., "buy stuff".

The fact that YOU enjoy being a capitalist ("put 'em up, put 'em up" doesn't mean I do. The question is, does SL need a both capitalists AND consumers, or can it get by with a brazillion merchants and no buyers?

I noticed something the other day - the people that are out there making stuff to sell, they don't BUY much. They are wicked busy with their businesses, and don't tend to sit around at concerts sipping coffee or playing SLTR-ingo.

TRUST me on this - get rid of the buying public, and you can kiss all your capitalist buds goodbye.

And, BTW, this is true of FL economics, as well.

Sorry, I guess I misunderstood when you said...



There are a couple of ways to take that. I guess you meant *literally* sick (as in ill/disabled). And yes, the economic system is great for such folks... as well as others who have learned to turn SL into more than just playtime recreation.

This thread is about the reputation system. People who have been on this board for at least a year know how the ratings system used to be abused. Shoot, we used to receive NOTECARDS inviting us to "ratings parties". At one time, ratings were nothing more than a way to say "hello"... and as a result, really didn't mean all that much.

Folks got used to receiving money for ratings and of course, no one likes it when "income" drops. I can sympathise. But at the same time... I can see the sensibility of LL deciding to no longer just dump L$ in people's laps for pressing a ratings button. The last few months the market was overly flooded with L$. So if LL decided to hand out L$ for ratings to stimulate the economy... then stop that practice once the economy is suffienctly (or even overly) stimulated-- that's their choice. Show me another game that hands out free money to people who play their game. Does the cable company pay you for watching lots of their TV? No, but LL pays people on a weekly basis... which some business managers would question right from the start. I'd say be happy that weekly allowance is there.

As for the implied concept that ceasing ratings stippends will somehow bring the entire SL economy crashing down around our ears... LOL, not hardly. Even BASIC users get 50L a week-- and they can buy more if they so desire. Premium users get (what, 500 a week?)... which is L2000+ a month. So I don't think the economy is going to come to a grinding halt because of this one decision. LL has not stopped every conceivable method of getting L$.... just one of them.

Hey, in real life, people get fired, right? Business close down, right? And some business come to the employess and say, "To stay open we need everyone to take a 10% cut in wages" and if it's a good business... employees often willingly agree.

So if SL is supposed to mimic RL so much... we have to take it for granted that at times.. cash flow is going to change and even our source of income may dry up. If that happens... we find another way to generate income. (and for the record, I am not only of the opinion but living proof that people CAN have lots of fun on Second Life without using more than 50L a week). So really, no one needs to get all out of joint on this. If we need L$... then open the pocketbook and buy some (thus strenthening the economy) or alternately, find some way to earn them, or enter a contest, or go and dance for a few hours, or do like a friend of mine did and buy a violin and play the thing at a meeting place with a tip jar... he pulled down 2,600L in 1 1/2 hours.

The primary thing is to get the ratings system to work properly... or forget it all together. I sympathise with those who have gotten used to ratings stippends. But time to wake up to the fact that those are gone. Time to move on and find another way to get L$. There is no reason for anyone on SL with a little drive and effort to be low on L$. I can go out any day of the week and pull down at least L250-L500 without even working up a sweat. Anyone can.

Sorry. That was a tongue-in-cheek remark, but I didn't include smilies, so I see how you might have misinterpreted it.




<Coughs> <Chokes> WHY is there this incredible difficulty distinguishing between "real life" and a "computer game"????? In REAL LIFE I can't fly, so why don't the Lindens disable THAT capability? In real life buildings can't float unsupported, or be created out of thin air, or be carried around in an invisible backpack.

THIS IS *NOT* REAL LIFE! ITS A GAME!



Someone mentioned earlier that in "other" games, there is always a finance system. That is "mostly" true. BUT, there are game-centric ways to earn money. In some games, you kill and loot corpses. In same games, you get paid just for the property you own. There is ALWAYS a careful game-related way to earn the "currency" you need to make the game pleasurable that makes sense for the particular game.

My point is that this is NOT "Second Life Tycoon". Its not billed that way, its not sold that way. Its history clearly indicates that money is ONE aspect, but only one, and some might argue, a SMALL one except in the eyes of those that are focused on the illusive RL six figure income from game activities that we read about in the trade rags.

MOST (IMIHO) I would argue are here for a multitude and variety of purposes, NOT related to monetary gain, whether in game or out, and the vendors that choose to pursue such things contribute to the game play for those of us that don't care so much, but are NOT the primary reason SL exists.

My point about the stipend is NOT the stipend itself, though that particular part stings. The point is that, just like any ANY well balanced computer game (Civilization, for instance) is that there have to be MANY ways to approach many definitions of success. Monetary is one, a significant one, BUT NOT THE ONLY ONE. Why is everyone so one-sided and thick-headed about that?

FINE! Make finance ONE aspect of the game. But make it possible for people to enjoy the game WITHOUT pursuing financial goals, or the game WILL FAIL. And that means making it possible to be "financially" comfortable without spending all waking hours "working".

I've been down that route. It sucks. I've worked for pathetic in-game pay, and worked HARD. To your point, the need for currency can generate some of the real feelings that a lack of financial clout causes in the real world. Helplessness. Hopelessness. Frustration. Is THIS what the Linden's seek to foist on their "citizens"? Is THIS what people who play SL want? OR do they want to ESCAPE that? Do they want to leave their dreary little apartments and dead end jobs and feel like "somebody" at least until the hard drive conks out?

Not everyone is a gifted scripter/modeler/designer. And even so, the MOST gifted of all will still be unsuccessful unless they ACTIVELY run their business attentively. IF THAT FLOATS YOUR BOAT, then go for it. What about the REST of us?

If the stipend is the very dead LAST thing that the Lindens kill, then fine. But my concern is that the "capitalists" (not an insult) are winning the war to make SL MORE finance oriented, rather than less.

This is very much to the Linden's SHORT TERM financial advantage (it worked with me - I went preemie JUST to get the allowance! - didn't even WANT land), but once this shining place begins to look more and more like the commercialization gone wild world of "Blade Runner" et al (walk around some time, through the malls, and stores and past the advertising that is ubiquitous - some might say it ALREADY HAS become that), I suspect many people will look for other ways to spend their time.

And those other ways WILL be out there, believe me. Especially now that the Linden's have pioneered the idea of in-game RL commerce. The band wagon is going to fill up fast. The Lindens should be vaery careful how they maintain their "lead".

The key here is what you said, make it easy, not hard.

When it becomes hard, it is not fun, and then those who are trying to get their noses OFF the grindstone will go elsewhere.

It's interesting how individual reasons for playing SL affect attitudes toward a rating system (in any form). I thought the original system was unbalanced in that it seemed to reward certain personality types over others, which I perceived as unfair.

Yes, I know... "Life ain't fair", in or out of SL.

Actually, rewards aren't high on my list of concerns, since my own reasons for playing SL have little to do with wanting to make money. I play SL to relax, to occasionally exercise a creative urge, but mostly to escape the fast-paced real world where one is forever striving to measure-up or succeed in some competitive and material way. On the other hand, some individuals thrive on competition and enjoy the "race" in both worlds, and there's nothing wrong with that. To each his own.

The real beauty of SL (to me) lies in the fact that there is room for everyone to create a safe, albeit temporary, "reality" that provides an enjoyable respite from one's first life. Why else would online worlds be so popular?

Yeah, I agree with you there. One of the drawbacks I've seen in SL is that there are no real GOALS. We've tried to create goals within Elf Clan by setting up Guilds that people can ascribe to and achieve after several months of effort... and people seem to enjoy that. But how many times have I had someone come up to me and say, "I'm bored"... and with good cause. Maybe what SL really needs is a really good Game Master organization to put some spice into the system.

Some of us have tried that. Prong Thetan and others tried. We've tried. But there's just this general lack of support in LL that eventually makes all such efforts fail (I mean, we've been trying for MONTHS just to get LL to give us simple group communications functions... with zero success Serious oversight, that!). People get to the point... why should we continue to work at something that is apparently doomed from the start? That's a big drawback, to be sure.



I can buy that. But it doesn't mean LL has to give away L$ either. A happy medium has to be set. I mean, if people want to just "play" SL... that's a choice they can make. But they shouldn't expect LL or anyone else to finance their whims. I merchant on SL because I choose to. It keeps me busy and active and I love building. Others may have no desire to build. Maybe they can find other ways to earn L$. Only point I'm making is this-- we can't expect Linden Lab or anyone else to just throw bags of L$ at us for no reason whatsoever.... especially since they do have real-world value.




Yeah. LOL. I've mentioned that to people. They say, "What's the best and fastest way to earn L$?" And I answer, "Buy, them... it's a lot cheaper." I mean, a person can work for $10 an hour RL and buy 2500L... or they can work an hour in SL and make 250L. Their choice.



It can if people let it. I didn't have that problem myself... nor did others that joined about the same time I did. There are so many ways to earn L$ on SL by just PLAYING that it was never a problem. And I played the first three weeks here while spending nothing. Becase unlike RL... on SL there are FREEBIES. THOUSANDS of them. Anything a person could want. Cars, boats, clothing, guns, swords, houses, avatars, etc etc etc. I mean, to be really honest... a person could thrive in Second Life and be materially rich-- and never spend a single dime (now that membership is free).




Personal achievement, (being "somebody) doesn't come from having cash to spend... it comes from helping others, being valuable, earning a reputation for kindness. The first few weeks we were here, we opened a poetry guild and encouraged new writers to keep writing. We stood around Ahern Welcome (even though we were new ourselves) and assisted wet-ear newbies with things like altlook and mouselook and what to avoid and other things (and as a result, gained a lot of friends really quick).

Buying L$ helps the economy and gives one spending funds. I have heard a lot of folks moan that they can't afford to buy L$. But then the next day they're talking about the movie they just went to see. Let's see... $5 in gasoline to get there, $10 for a ticket, $7 for popcorn.... Or about the new computer game they just bought. Or about the trip they just went on. They can do all that... but can't afford L$?

Like I said... there's no excuse for not having L$ in Second Life. They're everywhere.







Yup, agreed. Far as I can tell, SL started out with the goal of becoming a commerce-oriented virtual world, with jobs, income, stores, etc. It's an integrated part of the game. I'd rather there were not L$ at all and people gained reps by making incredible stuff to give away. But that's not how it is or ever will be. So I've come to accept what it is and taken advantage of making a few bucks here and there. But I didn't have to. That was the path I chose. I know folks who spend all their time running around as furries and dancing. Like you said, to each his own. Room for all.




Yeah, I hear you there. I've warned LL about this several times. This especially came to the fore the past few months, with the system going haywire and LL telliing clients it was their fault rather than server issues. Every time they make a major decision that really messes with the game... every time they ignore a customer who's paying them big bucks... they're just putting people in line to jump ship when a larger, friendlier, faster ship comes along. Have to agree with you there.

Someone is going to come along and offer 131,000m of land for $195 instead of 65,000m... and are going to listen to what their customers say... and LL is going to become a really large, really unpopulated world. Maybe LL will get their act together before then-- maybe not. But I do know this: when a customer pays a company US$3,000 to host a game... they'd better do a durn good job of it-- or the competition is going to eat their lunch.

And when clients are paying $10,000.... a year... or $50,000 a year... or $420,000 a year... that company durn well better snap to attention when the client voices a need. Because those prices are VIP level... and any less service than VIP level will have those clients keeping a constant eye out for the first alternative that comes along.

You go to Las Vegas and pay them $1000 for a motel room for a weekend... they send champaign to your room. So yea... perhaps LL is focusing too much on tech and not enough on enjoyable game content and responsibility to clients. I imagine it's a hard thing to balance. But when ya charge pro prices, ya provide pro service.

I agree with Wishbringer that there are endless ways to make $L in SL if that's what you're about. And also that you barely need the $L because there are so many freebies around that there's hardly a way to organize them all in the inventory. I have never had a problem making $L and like Wishbringer I've done it through the joy of playing with the resources offered here. I'm a builder and my store began a something like a yard sale because I didn't have enough space in my house to put all the things I'd made. So I took some of my space and put out some things. And people seem to like them - and there's your "rating system" right there. People seem to like them enough to pay for them. My joyful play seems to be making a little beauty and joy for others and they "rate" that by paying for what I make. Lovely feedback.

The extraordinary thing about SL is that, like RL, it becomes what you bring to it. It is not an externally driven outcome based scenario like hundreds of other games you can buy in boxes at the computer store. SL is a platform unlike any other "games" I've ever seen. It is a blank canvas on which to paint the life you would live. A venue to experiment with possibilities. A place to explore the limits of your imagination and share that with like minded others. Its not up to the Lindens to show you a good time. Its up to them to support the technology that puts it here. Its up to you to create that good time. SL can be a fascinating mirror of the person's life - what we would all create if we had the infinite scope and resources to do so. And like any mirror, if you aren't getting what you like out of it, perhaps its because you aren't putting the right things in.

Ratings system...yes, there should be one. Why? Because it's an easy way to find the griefers and ignore them. Positive ratings should build up to bonuses L$-wise. If someone's getting positive ratings, it 'should' mean that they're making SL better through their actions, whether it's their building or their attitude. Why shouldn't people who do this get a reward for it? If all they do is sit alone and live in their own little world, then their ratings will reflect this. They're not impacting the SL community in any real way, so they get nothing. Neg ratings? I'd say, over a certain point, it should send a red flag to the Lindens so they can investigate and possibly remove this person before they become a grief bomber or something similiar.

Best way I can see to do the ratings is...ratings applied in person should be just for how they look and how they act. Building ratings should only get added when someone rates something they've actually built. As 'how they look' is a rather vague area, maybe even remove that and just rate on how they act? I'm sure we all have friends out there that have horrid taste in clothes or aren't the prettiest people in the world, but they make things better by just being around, yes?

Yeah, it's based on the whole 'honesty' system...and there are people out there that love abusing systems like that. But I really don't see a way that the Lindens can automate something like this. Maybe they explained it further in than I got...I'll have to dig deeper. But what's to stop someone from abusing an automated system, too? People have already linked to bots that will keep your connection alive so you can sit in places and have more chances to win from money drop balls. I'm betting if there was an automated system, people would be trying their best to write a bot to take advantage of that.

This statement should be "etched" into a plaque and placed all over SL.

Seleine, even though I didn't 100% agree with your views... nicely stated and thought out... and some got me to thinking.


YEAH!


Well, because attaching L$ rewards to ratings leads to abuse of such... as we've seen in the past. HOWEVER... I guess that wouldn't be the case if they charged L25 for ratings (like they do now). I dunno... I always considered the ratings themselves the reward. But I can see why a person might be rewarded somehow for conducting themselves in a proper manner. Perhaps that reward should be L25 per rating-- the same amount that's paid in. The L$ don't do LL any good. K-- I'll rethink this. I always try to keep an open mind.


True. I've never been for abandoning the ratings sytem completely... just the way it was set up that allowed so much abuse. I know this might be unpopular.. but if I were LL.. I'd announce regrets that the previous ratings sytem didn't work out, ask for forebearance... wipe all ratings to 0 and let everyone start from there. To make it completely fair... I'd have the system do an extreme database search and give a ratings point to everyone who received one since the L25 charge change... that would reflect TRUE ratings. Seems to me that would be a wise move. And I have as much to "lose" in that as anyone, because I have hundreds of ratings points (some of them actually earned. LOL).


Someone mentioned a while back that there should be neg ratings... and they should be applied every time LL receives an abuse report on someone and that report turns out to be valid (even when only a "warning" is given). I have an alternate proposal: The "neg ratings" are invisible (so that folks aren't unduly prejudiced against a newbie who makes a mistake)... but 3 strikes and you're out. That would effectively eliminate griefers and potential griefers. So folks would then be aware from day one that if they commit 3 acts against the community, they're gone... permaban. That would apply even in the case of "warnings". If in 6 months no further harm has been done, neg ratings are set to 0. (After all, anyone can accidentally make mistakes that get them warnings).


I fully agree there. When I receive a "build" rating these days.. it really means something. But I remember the "old days" (a year ago...LOL) that people would be given build ratings who had never built a single thing. Fortunately, that doesn't really happen much any more. That L25 charge put an end to that nonsense. A "build" rating should not be able to be done in person. It should be only through the actual build itself... right click on the build, rate positive. So if the build is present and someone is impressed enough to pay L25... that's good. (I kinda wonder though, if L10 would be a more fair ratings fee... especially for newbies. L25 is a chunk for some folks).


KEWL! How is that done? LOL


.

Any system that gets deployed is going to get 'gamed', but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Even though SL is more of a universe than a 'game', the gaming aspects of it are fun for some, not necessarily all, people.

I've used ratings in 3 distinct ways:

1) to give/get positive feedback.

2) to influence how likely I am to visit one place over another when using the finder for specific shops. (I never go to the most rated... figuring it's been artificially inflated

3) as a weekly source of stipend.

I would like to see something more like what certain other internet businesses do, in the realm of book/movie sales/lending. A rating system that is correlated with other visitors ratings rather than treated as a 'high score' system.

I'd like to be able to have new places recommended to me based on what I like/dislike compared to other folks that like/dislike the same things I do. *THAT* would be a useful ratings system.

Good luck with this! (and thanks for adopting the 'gradual phase-out of ratings' model rather than flushing the previous ratings when you made the last transition!)

For the best example of what Jopsy was talking about, firefox users shouold download the "Stumble Upon" extension for finding new random web sites of interest. To you Lindens not familiar with FireFox in general or Stumble Upon specifically i recommend installing FF and getting that extension from the web site IF ONLY to play with it for a day or two to understand its usefulness.

When you register with stumble upon you select any number from dozens upon dozens of points of interests. Then anytime you are browsing any web page at all on the internet you have "like" / "dislike" buttons to click and the StumbleUpon server keeps track of that.

At any time you can choose any of your interests and stumble upon will give you a random web page along that topic and it makes this decision by comparing all the web pages it knows about on that topic, and seeing which ones have the highest "LIKE" ratings FROM PEOPLE WHO HAVE ALSO CHOOSEN SIMILAR INTERESTS AS YOU.

So if you like computers and want a new computer page to explore all those wrestlemania lovers who have clicked DISLIKE wont even effect what gets displayed to you. Again i recommend you try it for yourself for a day or two to get a better udnerstanding than what i can explain.

Buying L$ helps the economy and gives one spending funds. I have heard a lot of folks moan that they can't afford to buy L$. But then the next day they're talking about the movie they just went to see. Let's see... $5 in gasoline to get there, $10 for a ticket, $7 for popcorn.... Or about the new computer game they just bought. Or about the trip they just went on. They can do all that... but can't afford L$?

Like I said... there's no excuse for not having L$ in Second Life. They're everywhere.







I have read all your posts and this one in particular got me to thinking....... you're right I am wasting good moeny on frivolous things........ I think I will sell the 4k meters of land I have and use the teir fees for something else

Not sure I agree, but.......
I miss the voting boxes. Such a pretty shade of green, and they made a neat trumpety noise.