Reputation System

Many of you have expressed unhappiness with the current rating system. Well, help is on the way. We're exploring ideas for implementing a new reputation system which is behaviorally based. Please use this thread to discuss your thoughts about the role a reputation system should play in Second Life, and how you'd like to see it impact the world. For example, should there continue to be L$ bonuses to people with strong, positive reputations?

I don't think there should be any sort of ratings or reputation system.

How would a 'reputation' system work?
Who would decide whether or not someone gets a good or bad reputation?
Why tie it to L$?

How would having a reputation be different from the behavior rating?

Sounds similar, just packaged differently.

Well first off I think there should not be negative ratings.

Secondly I don't think there should be three catagories as most people just triple rate you anyways.

I do belive our bonus should be effected by it.

I admit I like the stipend bonus I get from my overall numbers. But, I will gladly give that up for a system that meant something.

I have never mined for ratings and it has taken me over a year to be where I am, but I see people a month old or so that are already close to me and even surpassed me.

I think some sort of reputation system is good to have. Maybe if it were free to issue a rating, without any financial gain, it might mean more. Im not really sure how that would work though.

Postitive rate parties (I imagine) are solely done for the purpose of driving up weekly bonuses of the participants. Negative rate attacks are meant to damage the persons reputation, I doubt a lessened bonus is a factor when this occurs.

I will sit back for now and see what people have in mind, Im sure there are a lot of good ideas out there.

If your thinking about dropping ratings, how about replacing it with a award system instead? Lindens would create the awards and accept suggestions for new awards, make cool trophy icons for each one, define any special "stuff" you get for having an award, the duration of any award etc..

Awards for things like :

Top 3 event hosters
Top 3 people averaging most time online
Top 3 people selling clothes, vehicles etc..
Top 3 image uploaders
Top 3 bug reporters

The more awards you add the more fun it gets. Show the awards in the users profile page with a description of what each award represents.

Would be neat to have a round of nominations and voting for all the winners.

Of course, winning them should be optional.. Some people actually don't like to login and find they have been awarded something because of the attention or the type of people it might invite....

There should no ratings system at all. Even if you were to implement a behavioral system people will learn how to game it. In real life people judge you by what you do and how you act....why do we need any point based system to do the same thing here?'

Oh yeah, and then they could have stuff like "3 most prolific abuse reporters" and --NO, must not hijack this thread!

I think using SL to build an implicit social network model is a really good idea. The surest way to fail to identify what people like and what is popular is to ask directly.

I'd also like to see some kind of system by which things like percieved "helpfulness" or "popularity" could be ranked by how existing clusters of people change when a certain individual shows up, or how many people seek out the person in question.

The stipend bonus really isn't necessary. A functional awards, if not rewards system is more important.

Well, I'll go ahead and say it.

To quote Steve Buscemi; "I hate to be the materialistic weasel of the group, but do you think we'll
get hazard pay out of this?"

In other words, I have to admit, I rather enjoy the financial bonus the bonus gives. I don't have any SL business's any more and don't really want any. At least for now. I dislike the idea that I'd have to start over again from zero. I'm sort of enjoying the idea of a pampered retirement.

And let's be honest, $500 a week just will -not- keep me in new clothes and toys. Sure, I can buy money, but I'd rather that not become the habit.

Some will say "learn to make it yourself". Ok, come to my RL house and teach me to use photoshop and wave the magic talent wand over my head so it looks just as nice as the things other people make. Same with scripting.

My point is, I'd hate the bonus system to vanish with a new reputation system. Under the present system I worked hard to get where I am, and I don't really want to work hard again just yet. For awhile there, I'd get home from work, log into SL, and get to work.

It would suck, for instance, if it were somehow a dwell type system, based on how many people you are around every day. I wouldn't want to fly around all over the place every single day trying to meet more new people than anyone else trying to get a slice of a finite pie.

I'm not saying the present system is perfect, not by any means. The points brought up by others proves that since they're all true, but I don't want all my work to disappear especially since my only income these days is from my stripend plus bonus.

Robin, reputations are earned, not coded in. I think Linden Lab really has to realize that.

In other ratings scenarios, such as Ebay, where ratings are transactional not arbitrary as they are in secondlife, it shows others whether or not the person is a bad apple.

In SecondLife, there's no transactional mechanism. It's completely based on whim. There's only one thing a rating actually shows the world, and that's that any given avatar was in clicking distance of another at one point in time.

We have dev incentives. We have contests, we have all sorts of mechanisms (including word of mouth) that "reward" people for a reputation.

I remember the MOTD's that would talk about how ratings reward good behavior and punish bad behavior. They simply don't do this. Not in any way, shape, or form. There are well-behaved people who have more behavioral negs than some of the worst behaved people in SL.

I am one who agrees that the rating system probably just needs to go out the window. I know I've got no clout here, but I'm telling you guys, it's absolutely stifling SL's social growth.

For those who have problems, we have an abuse reporting system.

For those who do well, BRING BACK VOTING. Voting and dwell combined WILL "reward" people.

But reputation is a social thing. Linden Lab has been trying to put a percentile or a quantization on it, and you just can't do that.

I really hope this doesn't go in one ear and out the other. Getting rid of the ratings system, I think, would be an epiphany for SL.

It's on the order of the reason SL got rid of the leaderboard for number of calling cards obtained. It was nothing but abused, and now that it's gone, thank god I don't get as many fly-by-calling-cardings.

Nobody's saying that existing standing would have to neccessarily vanish, Jellin. A new reputation or voting system, with cumulatives, could be summed and maintained.

I can't say I have many suggestions for the mechanics. I just know that what we have now is broken.

You said it better than I did, Talen. Exactly.

Ratings are a double-edged sword, IMO. On the one hand, they give you a very tangible means by which to reward or sanction other players. You scratch my back, I rate you kindly. You treat me like doo-doo, I don't have to take it standing still. What needs to be fixed is the arbitrary nature of rate giving. On the other hand, I can't reliably use the current rating system to determine who to befriend and who to avoid.

That said, I don't want to see the end-user rating component disappear, completely. I do agree that you should have to justify any negative rating, and that there needs to be some due process applied to the process. And, gangland neg raters should go the way of Capone.

So, my vote is for the aforementioned eBay-esque rating system. And, for those who aren't event mongers, allow for system-based, transactional rewards. That would lend some sanity and balance to the system.

First of all, a big thank you is in order - the Lindens do take into account the issues and suggestions that are important to us.

I think a rewards system might be an interesting thing to look at instead of a new rating system that will eventually be as broken as what we have now. As Jack said, award those who are top event hosters, creators of goods, bug reporters, and most importantly, helpers (including the generous work of the residents that help in Welcome frequently). Maybe this could be an 'award points' type system.

Linden dollar bonuses based on your total awards wouldn't be such a bad idea. If not calculated into stipend like now, maybe we could have incentives (in Linden dollars only) based on your award points that would compliment the current Developer Incentives (based only on dwell).

I will also glady give up my stipend bonus if need be. I believe that people who help Second Life will shine and raise to the top of the new system quickly. I don't think anything we have now should be 'converted' over. It's broke.

For those of you that think Ebays rating system is good...talk to people that sell on Ebay long term.

The rating system on Ebay is actually worse. People make fake accounts or buy info only auctions to get ratings( kinda like a rating party) except then they do even better...they pretend to sell things they dont have and people buy because they have good ratings. The abuse on Ebay concerning ratings and scams is through the roof but Ebay will never tell you that.

The rating system and leader boards are throwbacks to badly conceived social systems in MMORPGs...they didn't work in Evercrack and they will never work in the long term here.

The Metaverse isn't a contest...it isn't keeping up with the jonses. The Metaverse is supposed to be about a global community coming together.

It’s really nice to know LL is workings on this. It’s obviously become a broken system & I think everyone appreciates the fact that you’ve been reading our concerns and comments, also that you are now openly asking us for any suggestions we might have while you’re developing a new ratings system. With that said, I don’t feel there is any place for negative ratings in any form. Basically it really serves no purpose in my opinion. Any positive appraising should be free. Maybe put some kind of limit on them by either by limiting the total amount you can give in a week or the amount you can give a specific person per week so that won’t be abused. It would be nice if we had several categories to rate individuals based on their actual skills such as Building, Scripting, Texturing, Event Planning/Hosting, Teaching/Mentoring, etc. so a person could get a feel for contributions one has made to SL. Maybe work that in somehow with Jacks Awards idea which I’m rather fond of. I don’t think we should receive L$ for our ratings either, it would make people give ratings for the right reasons. Since a lot of people rely/are use to the L$ they receive from rating bonuses there would have to be some kind of way to compensate for that… maybe by simply increasing the overall stipend back up to 1000L$ & awarding extra L$ through the awards idea too possibly. Just a few rambling ideas & opinions

I don't care about ratings, but if I did, I'd agree with Talen.


Here's a compromise which would (supposedly) solve the neg rating issue:

Each player is only allowed N idols. Players are rated by putting them into a list at a position from 1 (admired) to N (liked, in some way... or whatever they'd end up with at the bottom of their scale).

This would create some sort of a balance; if everybody was just going to throw someone out of their list in order to exchange ratings with someone else, those who partake in the like will never be on many lists...

Those who are genuinely liked by a group of people on the other hand should retain their rating in some way.

The worst case is that a group of N+1 persons comes up with a system where each member would put everyone else on their list ordered in a way so that everybody would receive the same total amount of points.

This means that anyone who has around N*M fans or more will already stand out if the weight of the positions is linear (M being the average weight). So it could be a good idea to call N*M "zero" and don't display anything or the smallest possible number for any rating below this point.

Any value above N*M could be displayed as a number of stars or hearts ranging from one to three or, at most, five.

The system could be extended to multiple lists: A "cool" list, a "friend" list, a "crush" list and so on, but I don't know if that would be reasonable.



(edit: disambiguation)

Thanks Talen. That is a concept everyone has a hard time with, even the Lindens.

There are many personal ways to succeed, leader boards and other guages arent necessary here really.

I do agree that any kind of ratings/inferred relationships tool must be opt-in. There's no real reason to have the leader boards or ratings as a basis for rewards.

No Ratings and Leaderboards would be a good thing.. but as much as i hate to say it then what would people try to achieve.

But it also frees up jealousy and witchunts cause of certain peopls actions...neg ratings or pos rate mining. Cause i mean really..all it takes is you to go around or have events and rate everyone most will rate you back.

The places with high dwell will show up on the most popular places lists and LL can still give the rewards.

We don't really need to see that zeppi has 2million net worth.

Why does SL have or Need a high score? To keep track of the people who go get lots of ratings and refer people?

You can rate people thru objects....why not have it so that builds.. have a rating. Kind of like the old vote booths which can replace stipend monies lost from ratings.. and promote building worthwhile things... sure it could still be abused but.. not as much as the current system. It would probably have to go to creator thou not the owner...

A reputation system has been and still is a good idea and so is basing the stipend (at least partly) on it - but for it to work properly, reputations need to be weighted based on the raters own standing. For example, when someone with only a few positive ratings rates you, that should only have a very minor influence on your overall score. However, when someone with alot of positive ratings rates you it should have a pretty large impact on your standing. This would also solve the problem with people keeping a bunch of accounts just for (neg) rating other people.

Also, currently the 3 rating categories aren't really seen as such by a large part of the population - they just do whats known as a triple-pos or triple-neg. You could simply combine them into one.

Furthermore, we should be able to rate anyone from anywhere via their profile in the finder. The real world and SL merge more and more, and if I wanted to reward someone for helping me on the forum or making a great website about SL I shouldn't be forced to hunt him or one of his objects down just to do that.

Another possibility is to look at someones pos/neg rating ratio instead of just looking for high numbers in one category.

Here are some other statistics that might be interesting for this discussion.

I like the social network idea A LOT, as long as it doesn't affect stipends. And that's taht.

N00b perspective here: I think one of the most critical flaws, as others mentioned, is tying the stipend to the ratings. This provides ample incentive to fudge the ratings. Besides, under the current system, the systemically inevitable over-abundance of grid-wide positive ratings will result in inflation.

Another flaw, which I don't think others have mentioned, is the fact that the system /tells/ you when and by whom you have been rated. This creates expectations of reciprocity which are, in turn, exploited by SL'ers (myself included, I'm afraid) to rack up their counts. It also provides a huge disincentive to rate somebody negatively, as you are inevitably going to be rated right back as punishment. For this reason I have never rated anybody negatively, even when, for example, they exhibited atrocious behavior and I really wanted to do it.

The worst solution, IMHO, would be the creeping featurism solution: "Huzzah, now there's 22 categories and stipend bonuses are related to the ratings exponentially instead of linearly depending on what you select as your most important skills and goals! Browse your ratings history and bug the people that negged you to change their minds!"

This goes back to the goal of the ratings: what is it? IMHO, they should tell us: (1) has this person been around the grid getting to know people? and (2) Are they a jerk? AFAICS the current system is only vaguely correlated to either metric.

edit: inflation not deflation.

Robin, please dont make Muting someone the same as a negative rating. Me and my friends have resorted to muting each other when we want to have separate conversations. IM groups are fine and dandy but they take some time to set up and having a silly text window in front of me isnt quite the same as looking at an avatar's face.
Maybe you could revamp Talk To as an alternative to IM groups and this use of muting, making it so that it doesnt mess up the camera, and the chat is kept as private as in IM.

I think ratings are a way to put covers on books that don't already have them. I mean, isn't the most annoying thing about RL that people tend to judge you before you've spoken? Why would we want this in SL too? I would rather get to know people, and if they turn out rotten, oh well. That's all part of meeting people, isn't it?

If you MUST keep a rating system, at least make it so that a given rating actually matters. Right now I can rate something all day and it won't really matter to me. Make them cost more, make them limited per month/week, something.

As far as getting rewards for ratings...this is silly. The rating IS the reward. If I'm going to have something that people can judge me by before they talk to me, I want it to be as positive as possible. I wouldn't expect a financial bonus as well.

Ratings should be gone completely. Short of that, make them count for something.

D N

Here's an idea.

Does everyone remember the forgotten little page in our profiles, that say "I am good at:" followed by several checkboxes? "I am good at building, textures, socializing, organizing"

What if that was decided by your peers?

A person could right click on your avatar (or your profile), and go to 'rate', and get a selection of choices. "This person is a good:" followed by a list of choices. They would get to choose ONE thing the person is good at. They would then click their choice, and be done with it.

Then, if another person bebopped by and checked out the rated person's profile, they would see something like:

"208 people think this person is a good builder"
"156 people think this person is a good texturer"
"24 people think this person is a good socializer"

This would also give someone wandering by a good idea of what a person likes to do. If 208 people think this guy's a nifty builder, then by God, he must be at least competent.

No negative ratings... if someone thinks you're lousy at building, obviously they're not going to vote for you.

This would remove most of the point of rating parties because a) you can't negative rate, and b) you can only choose one category, and if you're REALLY gonna mine, you're going to get inflated social rankings only.

Furthermore, perhaps a log of messages given with a rating.. like "Avatar Average has rated you a good builder: Hey d00d, joo are l33t"
shown in a log file under his ratings. Maybe a temporary thing.

We need to make the numbers mean something.

LF