Politics, Racism & Business

Thought this is the "stars and bars" Confed National Flag.



The Above the Confed Naval Ensign.

the one with the crossing bars is the one hung on the walls in my family and the one I've always grown up with.

Maybe its the wrong one, but its the one that my family has chosen to honor our ancestors.

And on my mothers side.. we have more europeans.

I'm a huge mutt.

The actual confederate flag is this one:

http://www.cs-engineers.de/cs/bilder/musik_bonnieflag.jpg

And really, if you want to know what someone means by displaying a flag, the best way to find out is to ask them.

Most people honestly don't seem to realize that the battle flag wasn't *the* confederate flag.

Just for those who haven't Googled it already, as an interesting factoid: there was the initial "Bonnie Blue" flag mentioned earlier (the initial secession flag), the national flag of the Confederacy (the "stars and bars", the second national flag (the "stainless banner", and then the final version with a red stripe.

The common "X" design was used in the later two flags in the union (the section of the flag where the stars are, on the US flag), but originated as a battle flag design.

Well I've never met Torley, so I have no particular reason to leap to his defense... and I think you are being unfair... although I was aware of the watermelon connotation before I read the post, I didn't read it as Torley using the watermelon as an example of something people associate with racism. This is what Torley said: "For some the watermelon is just a fruit. To me it's divine"... simply making the point that two people could see the same thing in a different way. Despite the context of this thread, I don't think you can fairly state that Torley was using the watermelon as an example of something with a rascist connotation. Torley didn't say 'for some the watermelon is rascist, to me it's divine.' I feel you are reading something into Torley's words that simply isn't there.

A shining example of someone whose life centers around being a victim...

I have yet to see anyone victimized by a watermelon or a flag. Nevertheless, there are those whose existence dpends on their being a victim. Symbols are to each of us what we make of them (as individuals). To me, they are symbols, period. To the thin-skinned, they are an excuse to portray themselves as victims.

Oh come on now Bladyblue,

Do you really think that Torley's use of watermelon imagery is any way racist? I don't suspect that you do. I think you're intentionally ruffling feathers to get attention.

All of my previous dealings with you would lead me to believe you were much more mature than this.

You crossed the line, and I don't think you'll find very many others standing out there in left field with you on this one.

To the OP, freedom of speech is infinitely more important than your desire to never be offended. You can choose to shop wherever you wish too, that's the beauty of liberty. It's as simple as that.

I think Blady's rantings illustrate perfectly one clear idea, that even with the best of intentions, we are going to offend each other from time to time. That's part of life and part of living together.

This discussion reminds me of one I had yesterday inworld with some-one.

I was accused yesterday of being racist, because I truthfully stated I had never met an Afro-American. Something that is hardly unusual considering I live in Australia.
This person then asked had I ever met a black person at all. To which I replied, yes. I have met and have several friends that are Koorie, or Somali. This person then informed me that neither Koories nor Somalis are blacks. Why?? Because they were not Afro-American. Or of that descent.
So I asked a few other in-world friends later in the day about their view on this. All of them were very clear on stating that Koories, and Somalis are NOT blacks. Again the same reason was given.
Yet if you aksed some-one of either Koorie or Somali descent, they would unequivocably tell you they are very much black. And to say they weren't just because they are not Afro-American is extremely racist.

So my point is to be very careful that you are not defining your view of what is racist and what isn't upon your own narrow cultural viewpoint. We in SL, come from many different parts of the world. Each has it's own history, stereotypes, and cultural/religious views.

Yes, I agree freedom of speech and expression is very very important. I've spoken exhaustively about this subject all weekend with friends from everywhere: north, south, middle, left, right, etc. while I was away on a business trip (to the South US, ironically). Every person I've spoken with has said they would not use this symbol because of it's former connotations, regardless of it's current meanings or other meanings, and for most of them I would say their opinion comes from a strong conviction, not political correctness.

On my part, it's conviction NOT that people who use the symbol are racist, but that the symbol itself is offensive to a segment of the population who do feel targeted when they see it. (Yes, I did speak with several African American friends about this).

Also, I never intended to imply that any segment or group of people were racist. Sorry it came across that way. My question was simply whether or not you would give business to a person who displayed symbols of oppression (past or present), whether displayed for all to see or hidden in another place somewhere. I'm certainly not going to go looking for symbols in every place where I shop, but having spoken with my friends who are very offended by the symbol, I won't be frequenting places where that particular symbol is displayed.

I would hope that people who do feel strongly that this symbol is important to them would display it openly and proudly and assert their right to freedom of speech. If it must be kept hidden then apparently the person does have some sense that it can be offensive to some people.

As for the attack on Torley Linden, that was completely uncalled for and rude and just idiotic on behalf of the attacker, and I'm hoping this thread is closed soon because the subject has probably been discussed to death now and thus "outlived its usefulness".

Torley, if people like that are so consummately absorbed in playing the victim card, there's no amount of honest, good-natured explanation of the differences between cultures that's going to pull them out of their navel-gazing. But yet again, you tried to put the best face forward on the subject. I hope it doesn't dampen your enthusiasm or make you feel like you have to tone down your neon watermelon-colored self.

blady, I wonder how you manage to pull yourself past the produce aisle without breaking out into "We Shall Overcome". It would be a happy day for race relations in this country if Torley's choice of icons was the only thing left to get worked up over.

I think this thread has turned into a bit of a one-sided pile-on... and unless Blady wishes to add comment, I dont see any more need for more people to jump on.

The mention (a long time ago) of Artemis' Buddhist Swastika took me right back to when I first spotted it in SL - it was quite a shock to see it, having read the day before about someone banned for a range of anti-semitic activities.

But there was a good explanatory note with it. Part of cultural sensitivity is being aware that something offensive to one person may have no connotations - or completely opposite connotations - to others.

I can also see why some people might not want to shop where particular symbols/flags are flown - which is where this thread opened. What are the odds that Artemis lost some sales from people who either didnt read the note or couldnt accept the explanation?

Personally I still cant get over the fact that there is a RL chain of cafe/restraunts in the UK called 'Cafe Mao' - complete with Andy Warhol style portraits of the chairman.

I'm not a mind reader and some people say they own a confederate flag because of heritage so I'd have to take their word for it...

unfortunately, the symbol is quite racist for many even in 2006. I live in Georgia and the particular county I live in, there were several confederate flag pop ups....sorta like what kkk members were doing with burning crosses. You'd go to sleep and wake up and you'd have a confederate flag in your yard. Personally, I don't take kindly to the symbol because of what it represents around here but if I were curious as to why someone held theirs dear...I'd ask.

The thing is, you never know, so it is not safe to assume either way.

Back in the 60's when the the battle flag really did carry racist connotations, they were integrating a school named after Nathan Bedford Forrest (google that one). Their football team was called the Rebels. So there they were, a bunch of Afro-American teenagers, waving the confederate battle flag at football games and yelling go Rebels.

Meaning is in the eye of the beholder. Like, when people tell me I'm short, I say thank you.

We won't really be healed until no one thinks what Barbarra described is any more remarkable than teams of Vikings and Bears. Gonna take a long time yet. Slavery is horrible. Former Confederates starving to death during Reconstruction was horrible. (and anyone who starts to go off about which was worse is missing the point) People hold grudges, and hold onto symbols of them. How much of that is to avoid forgetting and allowing history repeat itself, and how much is cultural PTSD? How much is historical interest, and how much is excuse-making? It isn't always purely one or another, and some people spend their entire professional lives trying to sort it out and categorize it and label it. Understanding is good, except that it perpetuates the whole thing . . . but what else can we do? Shrug and say, "Just forget it?"

Cats don't have these problems, yet we think we're smarter than they are.

I don’t need to Google that name. I would say that the massacre at Fort Pillow shows the character of this "gentleman".



For Me the Confederate Flags makes me think about a time when my country was ruled locally instead of from a distant Eastern Capital. If the flag makes me think of any thing else it is people from the countryside of America.

slightly off topic (so sue me)


http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/uc/20060228/lfb060228.gif

The follow-up question to ask is, "what is this 'heritage' of which you speak?".

We all have monsters, murderers, thieves, and racist bastards in our past, but most of us don't idolize them and wave around the banners they committed atrocities under.

My ancestor died in battle fighting to protect his family and what he believed in. He believed in a union of states not ruled over by one region..but by all regions. The south was neglected..cut short on almost anything they could be. Demand grew for more base products and thier costs to purchase slaves (at the time legal, and I can go into that book simply by saying it wasn't just europeans selling slaves) and other things nec. to run their plantations and still make a profit.

The North was stifling the south..and before anyone forgets.. the civil war didn't free slaves to free them. It freed slaves on territories conquered by the invading north in order to punish the south. Even after the war slavery still existed in the US..and it -never- declined in the north during the civil war.

If you idolize the current american flag you seem to give respect to the war crimes being committed right now in Iraq..and the torture for information..so..what atrocities were you meaning again?

Sure we do. Americans and Brits are intensely fond of flag waving, despite having committed numerous attrocities under them in Iraq against innocent civilians, murdering many women and children as recently as this decade.

Or is that somehow different? Perhaps there is some technicality you can use to justify it so you can wave your flags and still sleep at night?



Ban all flags, I say!

To combine what Jonas and Kris said:

Every flag has had atrocities commited under it. If it hasn't, the only reason is because it's too new - it will eventually.

By the same token, not everyone under a flag has commited atrocities. Do you honestly think everyone in the south was a slave-owning racist, or even supported slavery in and of itself? If you do, your knowledge of history, or lack thereof, is very telling.

Indeed, Robert E. Lee himself was not much in favor of slavery; he fought because he thought of himself as a Virginian first, and an American second - a situation I think people in, say, the EU might very well symphathize with today. (Although it would be wrong to say he was an abolitionist - he did hold to a prevailing, if racist, view of his time that the black were being "enlightened" by contact with proper, i.e., white, society.)

See, the problem with demonizing an entire people is they're people. See The Law of Monkey for a more elegant and funny explanation than I can give.

Which - as that very page uses Osama bin Laden as an example - doesn't mean the genuinely evil don't deserve genuine punishment; the wrong is in saying things like "All those Southerners are/were evil racists rednecks who rape their childen and want a return to slavery." Some of them were just folks, you know?

Ehh, don't feel bad. I attended a military leadership school in Biloxi, Mississippi back in 1987 and told the instructor I believed the Confederate flag was symbolic of terrorism and damn near started a riot. LOL.