Do the political views of content providers/business owners affect your decisions to buy from them?
Recently I was shopping and accidentally was tp'd to the designer's studio, only to be confronted by a large Confederate flag hung on the wall. Knowing the secret meaning of this flag in the U.S. southern states, I immediately tp'd out of there and am reluctant to return or to buy anything from this designer.
Not just my sense of political correctness kicking in, but the fact that that flag stands for something very ugly for African Americans even today, thirty years after the civil rights movement, I just don't want to support Confederate ideals with my money or by recommending the designer to other residents (despite that I have purchased from this designer in the past and would have again if I hadn't seen what I saw).
Anyone have any thoughts on this? (this would have been a poll if I had known what I was asking here.)
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Sansarya Caligari
BLEH!
Join date: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 1,206
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02-21-2006 15:18
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Solar Shirakawa
Registered User
Join date: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 27
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02-21-2006 15:31
You are lucky you accidently found out the person's views. Buy from somebody who supports your favorite charity or don't buy from somebody with views you don't like its the same. Its your money.
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
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02-21-2006 17:28
Recently I was shopping and accidentally was tp'd to the designer's studio, only to be confronted by a large Confederate flag hung on the wall. Knowing the secret meaning of this flag in the U.S. southern states, I immediately tp'd out of there and am reluctant to return or to buy anything from this designer. 0.o "Secret meaning"? The flag itself is not inherently racist, nor is everyone who displays it today racist. Some groups have chosen to use it in conjunction with racist ideology, yes, but it it not inherently a symbol of racism. Nor, at worst, would I call it "secret" by any stretch. _____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
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Aliasi Stonebender
Return of Catbread
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,858
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02-21-2006 18:35
0.o "Secret meaning"? The flag itself is not inherently racist, nor is everyone who displays it today racist. Some groups have chosen to use it in conjunction with racist ideology, yes, but it it not inherently a symbol of racism. Nor, at worst, would I call it "secret" by any stretch. Indeed. I see a lot of "HERITAGE NOT HATE" bumper stickers around here. Which isn't to say that I believe every person who flies a Confederate battle flag is doing so from wholesome motives, or that I believe it's a particularly wise thing to fly, but flying the flag does not automatically mean they're a racist redneck KKK member. (Doesn't mean they aren't, either, but you need more background.) In any case, it's certainly not a secret meaning in either sense. My parents had one, although they weren't very respectful of it - it was used as insulation in the winter.  _____________________
Red Mary says, softly, “How a man grows aggressive when his enemy displays propriety. He thinks: I will use this good behavior to enforce my advantage over her. Is it any wonder people hold good behavior in such disregard?”
Anything Surplus Home to the "Nuke the Crap Out of..." series of games and other stuff |
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Torley Linden
Enlightenment!
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 16,530
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02-21-2006 18:43
When it comes to powerful symbolism, I often ask, "What does this mean to you?" to try to place it into context. For some, a watermelon is just a fruit. For me, it's divine.
I'm not a political person, and I have a wide variety of friends with many political sorts of views. In SL, consistent with official policy, I make it a point to obey the Community Standards, and likewise, hope that merchants I buy from will too. _____________________
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Sansarya Caligari
BLEH!
Join date: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 1,206
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02-21-2006 19:06
I guess by secret meaning, I mean that if the Confederate flag is displayed in a restaurant or store in the south it's a signal that black people are not wanted or welcome to eat or do business there (I've been told by friends).
I'm not black. I'm Native American. Where I come from, if the restaurant or place of business displays certain symbols it means Native people are not welcome there either. The flag I saw was not prominently displayed, it was in a room I ended up in accidentally. That makes a slight difference, but not much. |
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
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02-21-2006 20:04
Again, I'd just be careful with your judgement. The confederate flag (It's actually the battle flag, not the national flag) is not inherently a sign of racism, and a lot of people who display it would be *deeply* offended at the implication.
_____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
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Barbarra Blair
Short Person
Join date: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 588
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02-21-2006 20:19
The confederate flag is a sign of rebellion against the Federal government. It was a "racist" symbol back in the 60's when the Federal government stood for integration, and that connotation has hung on. Most people don't intend for it to be a racist statement, however.
I think most people who display it don't even think about what it means, except it is always a kind of "in your face" gesture. I grew up in the 60's in the south, just to give you a reference point on my point of view. It's not the real confederate flag anyhow; the "bonnie blue" flag is still illegal, I believe. _____________________
--Obvious Lady
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Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
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02-22-2006 05:21
Knowing the secret meaning of this flag in the U.S. southern states This statement is itself offensive to everyone raised in the south..the attachment of any racist meaning behind the confederate flag is a personal one, not an attachment that is impersonal..that the flag represented. The issue isn't racism or a desire for slavery.. its pride in your heritage. Pride in acestors who took the right -granted- by the reigning government to secede.. and were punished unfairly and illegally for it. I won't go into further detail here..as this is -in- world politics, but you have been abuse reported for a slur agaisnt southerners. |
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Ordinal Malaprop
really very ordinary
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,607
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02-22-2006 05:42
Something like a confederate flag, I would take into consideration along with other factors. Sometimes a load of individual elements which are individually fine can be put together to suggest an underlying theme.
To answer the original question, no, I would not have a problem at all with avoiding businesses where I wasn't comfortable with their beliefs, not selling to them and telling other people my conclusions about them if I thought they felt the same way. I wouldn't do scripting work for a neo-Nazi group for instance. I wouldn't go any further than that unless they were actively harassing others. |
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Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
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02-22-2006 05:52
Another good example is the iron cross of german military origin: oftne mistaken as nazi prpoganda..when it only inferred a ace's level of skill.
Second onw would be the -original- swastika. You see..there was a swastika design that the nazi regime corupted. Meant luck or symbolized the elements if I recall right. |
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Jackal Ennui
does not compute.
Join date: 25 May 2005
Posts: 548
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02-22-2006 06:18
Do the political views of content providers/business owners affect your decisions to buy from them? I mostly come across people's political views in those forums (even though I do my best to stay out of off-topic) and not that much in-world but yes, it has affected my decision not to buy from them. Of course, in the grander scheme of things, it's all pretty pointless - missing out on my 200L$ or so didn't hurt them much, and a boycott of FL companies that support certain politics or business strategies which I oppose would be a lot more helpful to further the cause. I am in SL because it is such an incredible blank slate for creativity. I get enough FL in FL, and come into SL for SL - therefore I expect people to have the decency to check their First Life agendas at the door, or, if they absolutely need to proselytize, to then do it in a respectful way and shut up when people clearly are not interested. (The last point seems to be quite a challenge for some.) There are some projects that bring FL into SL (for example the Biloxi sim, Relay for life, Democracy island) but those harness virtual reality in novel and interesting ways and as such, I consider them an interesting experiment in the usage of this plattform. Plunking down a virtual flag in one's virtual backyard isn't something I consider novel or interesting in any way (regardless of the flag) - it is an expression of national pride that is mildly offensive to me, and in confronting me with FL politics and nationalism, it breaks the immersion and is an annoyance to my play. If Joe HomeOwner annoys me in that way, I won't dwell on that long - if Joe ContentCreator does, I am a lot less inclined to check out his picks / search for his store. _____________________
Lassitude & Ennui - Fine prim jewelry & footwear, Nouveau(60,60)
http://lassitudeennui.blogspot.com/ |
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Kris Ritter
paradoxical embolism
Join date: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 6,627
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02-22-2006 07:44
Second onw would be the -original- swastika. You see..there was a swastika design that the nazi regime corupted. Meant luck or symbolized the elements if I recall right. You are correct - and I quote at length: The swastika is an ancient symbol that has been used for over 3,000 years. (That even predates the ancient Egyptian symbol, the Ankh!) Artifacts such as pottery and coins from ancient Troy show that the swastika was a commonly used symbol as far back as 1000 BCE. During the following thousand years, the image of the swastika was used by many cultures around the world, including in China, Japan, India, and southern Europe. By the Middle Ages, the swastika was a well known, if not commonly used, symbol but was called by many different names: * China - wan * England - fylfot * Germany - Hakenkreuz * Greece - tetraskelion and gammadion * India - swastika Though it is not known for exactly how long, Native Americans also have long used the symbol of the swastika. The Original Meaning The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix. Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck. However, all that said...try displaying a swastika now and telling the offended parties you meant it in an entirely good way. Actually don't. Really. Sometimes it's possible to corrupt something to the point that it really isn't generally acceptable to display it without relavent context. And other times, you have to accept that other parts of the world may simply be blissfully ignorant of the offense use of a symbol or gesture can cause. I didn't know til I started speaking to people on the 'net that the term 'Yank' was offensive to many Americans, and has specific regional conuntation and meaning. Here, all Americans are yanks, and it's meant in an affectionate way! And many Brits just dont know of any real meaning or background behind the word and wouldn't likely know that it could cause offence. _____________________
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Kim Anubis
The Magician
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 921
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02-22-2006 09:49
The swastika is an ancient symbol that has been used for over 3,000 years. (That even predates the ancient Egyptian symbol, the Ankh!) 3,000 years ago the ancient Egyptian New Kingdom era (1570 to 1070 BCE, or Dynasty 18 through 20) was already over. This'd be after the time of King Tut, for example. The Ankh symbol is a lot older than that (can't be bothered to look it up right now). Upshot of this is, whatever source you're quoting there, I would suggest you not trust it as far as you can throw it; as in, I wouldn't believe anything else in the quote, either. Anyway, more on topic: Yeah, if someone pisses me off, I don't buy their stuff, online or offline. But on the other topic . . . I know some history buffs who run around (and ride around) in Civil War uniforms doing reinactments, and some of them have Confederate flags around. I was invited to join both "armies." The "north" said I could be a "camp follower" (you know, a whore). The "south" invited me to be their commander's banjo player (like JEB Stuart had). I ended up not joining either side, because, for this reason and others, the "south" seemed to be having a lot more fun and that was the club I wanted to join, but I didn't feel like taking flak from people who'd assume I was a racist. _____________________
http://www.TheMagicians.us
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Aliasi Stonebender
Return of Catbread
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,858
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02-22-2006 10:00
However, all that said...try displaying a swastika now and telling the offended parties you meant it in an entirely good way. Actually don't. Really. Artemis Fate has a nice large swastika on her shop in-world. A Buddhist swastika. _____________________
Red Mary says, softly, “How a man grows aggressive when his enemy displays propriety. He thinks: I will use this good behavior to enforce my advantage over her. Is it any wonder people hold good behavior in such disregard?”
Anything Surplus Home to the "Nuke the Crap Out of..." series of games and other stuff |
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Marcus Richelieu
Second Life Resident
Join date: 27 Nov 2004
Posts: 9
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Symbols and shopping
 02-22-2006 11:31
Sansarya, you have the right to buy from who ever for what ever reason you want.
All of us have that power. Isn't freedom nice?! To answer your question, yes. Who is the seller impact in my decision of buying. I do think you may have over reacted just for a flag. But you know what? I do over react a lot in my life so who am I to tell you anything about it? LOL I saw all the discussion about symbols LOL I will just say these: I will never draw a swastika not matter what means in India or where ever because a lot of people will feel offended. Why? Because symbols do transmit ideas and, sometimes, these ideas are not what I will judge as good ones... specially when acts against humanity were commited by people using them. And the swastika is a symbol too offensive for me to like it. I think we must try to respect others feelings when we can. So I will ask all of you to respect that for me a swastika is not a good symbol and I will respect that for some of you can be a good one. If I see a swastika drawn in someplace, I won't feel confortable. And that is my right: I can feel as I want. And you can judge me all you want for that. LOL Of course I dont have any idea of what people can feel with the banner you described because I am not from your country. But I do know what you felt because you expressed it. I will give you an advise (my advises usually are not good ones lol but I give them anyway) talk with the owner of the flag. He/she may be a racist or maybe not. You wont really know it until you contact the person. Maybe even you end like friends!!! Won't be the world better if that happens. |
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Arthax Bachman
Registered User
Join date: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 78
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02-22-2006 13:24
Look at the Dukes of Hazzard, a very well-known show, which had the Confederate battle-flag on the roof the the Gen. Lee. For the Dukes (and to a great many others) the flag doesn't symbolize racism, but rebellion against government or authority. For others it represents their heritage.
How would people who use the "peace sign" (since it's a symbol of pot-smoking hippy-radicals who undermined the US in Vietnam) like it if a lot of people boycotted them? I think we should not be overly-sensitive, as frivolous boycotts hurt all of us in the end, damaging the economy and making everyone afraid to express themselves freely. So, why don't we all just agree to let everyone have their own viewpoints and buy what we like? I would only reserve boycotts for things that are really offensive (if even that), like Osama banners or Swastikas, unless perhaps those using Swastikas are Indian, and Swastikas are ancient and holy symbols to them, having nothing to do with Nazism. |
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Sansarya Caligari
BLEH!
Join date: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 1,206
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02-22-2006 15:02
Hm, having thought about this for a day or so and spoken with friends about it I still decided to not do business at that store. Yes, freedom IS nice.
My thoughts: why display it in a secret place? Why not on the wall right INSIDE the store for all to see? Is it because there are so many American patriots in SL who will defend America to the last breath? Is it because there is a large, growing black community in SL? Is it a slur to Northern Americans? (if, as someone suggested, it is not meant to be aimed at blacks?) I also do not watch The Dukes of Hazzard, nor did I whenever they were a popular tv show. As long as the attitudes of racism and exclusionism exist in America (and they do, the KKK are still active, blacks in New Orleans got the shaft before, during and after Katrina, etc.) then the symbols of past acts of racism still carry SOME meaning and cause hurt to those they have been aimed toward. Why else would the swastika still have power to hurt Jewish people? Prior to the enslavement of African people and the colonizing of the American south, the land where that flag was born belonged to Indigenous people. At one time, my own ancestors occupied the areas where North and South Carolina are today, and many generations later their children were driven out of there on the Trail of Tears. So, yes, the symbol of southern freedom does have some meaning for me personally too. |
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Kim Anubis
The Magician
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 921
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02-22-2006 15:44
I've had this same discussion way too many times on way too many forums. But hey, long story short, I disagree with you about these symbols and I have the ancestral heritage to give weight to my position, too . . . if I thought that counted for anything.
Maybe they didn't have the flag in their shop because they didn't want to be attacked on the forums if someone decided the symbol of their crush on Daisy Duke was "aimed" at some group and meant they were racist. Or maybe they ARE a raging racist and have a prim hood they wear when no one's around. There's absolutely no way to tell what the story is based on what you've posted here. Why don't you just ask the person? _____________________
http://www.TheMagicians.us
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Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
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02-22-2006 15:53
I'm hebrew (passed through my maternal grandmothers blood.. so yes its ancestral) and part romani (gypsy). Both persecuted groups by the nazi regime. I take offense to the swastika only when it is used in a nazi (or other hate) context..I take offense to anything said in hate or ignorance..
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
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02-22-2006 17:08
My thoughts: why display it in a secret place? Why not on the wall right INSIDE the store for all to see? Because it's not part of their shop? I have a gay pride flag on display in my house, but you won't find it in my stores. I'm not trying to hide it, it's just not important to the store. Is it because there are so many American patriots in SL who will defend America to the last breath? Is it because there is a large, growing black community in SL? Is it a slur to Northern Americans? (if, as someone suggested, it is not meant to be aimed at blacks?) No, I doublt it, and no, in that order. It's probably not meant to be *aimed* at anyone period. d I also do not watch The Dukes of Hazzard, nor did I whenever they were a popular tv show. As long as the attitudes of racism and exclusionism exist in America (and they do, the KKK are still active, blacks in New Orleans got the shaft before, during and after Katrina, etc.) then the symbols of past acts of racism still carry SOME meaning and cause hurt to those they have been aimed toward. Why else would the swastika still have power to hurt Jewish people? Those attitudes exist everywhere, but... Prior to the enslavement of African people and the colonizing of the American south, the land where that flag was born belonged to Indigenous people. At one time, my own ancestors occupied the areas where North and South Carolina are today, and many generations later their children were driven out of there on the Trail of Tears. So, yes, the symbol of southern freedom does have some meaning for me personally too. That's just taking it to a silly level. I'm part native american (1/64th, not a big part), part german, irish, scottish, british, and french-canadian of uncertain prior origins, all in various amounts. I don't find the british flag a symbol of hate because the brits have been less than friendly to scottland and ireland over history. I don't find the french flag offensive because the french invaded and ruled england for a long time. I don't find the american flag offensive because the colonists were pretty nasty to a lot of the natives. They're just flags, for crying out loud. The people who display them are proud of things that the flag represents... Why should I be offended at that? I mean, by your logic, any flag flown in america today, be it a state flag, military flag, or national flag should be just as offensive, because they were "born" in America. _____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
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Felix Uritsky
Prime Minister of Lupinia
Join date: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 267
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02-22-2006 17:39
As someone who was born & raised in the south, I must say I'm offended at the implication that anyone who displays a confederate battle flag is racist. I have a confederate flag on my wall in my house IRL, because many of my ancestors fought in the Civil War. Many of my friends have confederate flags on their vehicles, and flying from their houses. And yet, we are some of the most accepting folks in the area, we even helped put together a Black History Month exhibit at the local library.
This is no different from condemning someone for displaying a swastika, or flying an inverted American flag (which I've been attacked for in the past in SL), or displaying islamic/christian/whatever symbols. |
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Turgar Nilsson
Registered User
Join date: 5 Oct 2005
Posts: 134
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02-22-2006 18:16
I think before you make a conclusion, it would make sense to talk to the person. In England, there is often a debate over the use of the Flag of St George, and whether it is now tied in with racist BNP overtones. A lot of people, particularly around sporting events, have decided to "take back it's usage" from the facists, again as a symbol of a national pride in heritage......
Again, tolerance says talk to a person before you label them. It may very well be purely innocent. |
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Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
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02-22-2006 18:33
I think double standards are the danger of the day, rather than out and out racism.
Example: the 'n' word. Its acceptable for one race to use it but not another? Isn't that in itself a form of racism? |
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Sansarya Caligari
BLEH!
Join date: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 1,206
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02-22-2006 18:45
http://www.nccj.org/nccj/nccj.nsf/subarticleall/352?opendocument
Historically, the Confederate flag was a symbol of the Confederate States of America who defended the rights of individual states that maintained their economy through slave labor during the Civil War. Although the Civil War ended 137 years ago, the battle over the legacy of slavery, segregation, and civil rights remain. Through the years, the Confederate flag has taken on additional negative connotations because it was used as a symbol of resistance during the civil rights movement and is currently a prominent symbol of active white supremacist groups1. This is not to say that all individuals who bear the Confederate flag are racist. However, the symbolic meaning of the flag is that of white domination and Southern pride. Some people assert that the Confederate flag is a symbol of their heritage, however, for many people of color and religious minorities across the United States and other communities around the world, the Confederate flag represents hatred, bigotry, racism, and anti-Semitism. This symbol is a very powerful nonverbal communication tool that, according to the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), generates deep meaning, intent, and significance in a compact, immediately recognizable form. The ADL further contends that the usages of racist symbols, such as the Confederate flag, are the building blocks that compose the vocabulary of racist imagery and are used interchangeably throughout the world. Members of racist organizations often use such symbols along with more specific images associated with their groups, and independent racists can avoid association with a specific group, and perhaps prosecution of that group by law enforcement, by opting for more universal racist symbols. NCCJ maintains that the Confederate flag is a visible, confrontational racist symbol that represents racial oppression, segregation and slavery. As noted by Mr. Kweisi Mfume, President and CEO of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, "The (Confederate) flag is representative of an era that epitomized everything that was wrong and inhumane in this country and should be stripped of any sovereignty context and placed into a historical context." NCCJ concurs with this sentiment and calls for the removal of the Confederate flag from all public properties with allowances for its usage in appropriate historical and educational contexts. |