Is SL Fascist?

A fascist society can be a dictatorship or a democracy. Facism is just using stringent social and economic controls with supression of the opposition through terror and censorship.

Well, true terror in a virtual world isn't really possible other than the using the tools of the world against someone: modification of groups, seizing of land, bannings, etc. Censorship would be simply telling someone they can't say something or through bans (like from the forums, for example or from the SL world itself).

If SL is a game (a business), then this is all academic. But SL is frequently touted (by Linden Labs themselves) that SL is a "world" and not a game.

One day we'll have to distinguish between "Second Life", the product we install on our PCs and that allows us to connect to remote servers hosted in California which contain 3D content, and "Second Life", the environment that emerges from having 100,000 people interconnected to the same technological infrastructure.

"Second Life", the product (client plus server software), is something owned and controlled by Linden Lab. They can call it whatever they want (it's a marketing issue), but that's what they provide directly: 3D content hosting and a viewer application.

"Second Life", the environment, is not under LL's control (only to the extent that right now in early 2006 you depend on their technology for "Second Life" to exist)

Perhaps this old analogy works well: "Mozilla" and "Apache" (or "Internet Explorer" and "ISS" together are the technologies that enable client-server applications using HTML/HTTP as protocols. "The World-Wide Web" is the result of hundreds of millions of people using those applications/technology platforms together, and creating an environment for collaboration, commerce/business, entertainment, news, information and data retrieval, and whatever you may care to mention.

Of course SL cannot exist without LL; as well as the WWW cannot exist without people developing the required technologies; but both "Second Life" (as a virtual world) or the "World-Wide Web" are concepts way beyond the technology that enables its existence. It throws in people and what they use that technology for.

While the Mozilla Foundation, the Apache Foundation, and Microsoft, have absolute control over their respective products (again, the way they exert that control is different; see below), they don't "control" what and how the World-Wide Web looks like (even Microsoft understood this in late 1995, after unsuccessfully promoting "Microsoft's Way" of doing their own brand of "internetworking" for around 6 months).

So when we talk about "SL is fascist", this can apply to either "SL the product" or "SL the virtual world". I'm not sure which one you're targeting. Again, let's take some examples from the more familiar 2D Web: while Mozilla and Apache are collaborative projects that get input (and effective development) from the community they target (ie. the users change their own tools according to their own projects), Internet Explorer is developed solely at Microsoft's discretion, without "needing" or "wanting" any external input. But the different approaches to software development do not apply to the use of that product. The WWW is neither "fascist" nor "anarchist". There are "fascist" zones on the Internet (the ones where you cannot change the content or the way it's presented to you...) and there are "anarchist-collaborationist" zones (like forums, web chatrooms, the many Wikis...).

While certainly SL's viewer and server are under full control of LL (which may or might not listen to customer's ideas and suggestions for features), I'm not exactly sure on how to apply this to SL's environment. Predominance seems to be a type of "laissez faire" policy — a sort of "controlled anarchy", where you can do whatever you wish, unless it gets out of hand. Then LL steps in and decides. Most sorts of "fascism" are not so liberal in allowing people to have a free hand as under a "laissez faire" type of government. I'd be hard pressed to think of SL's environment as more than that.

Still, I certainly agree that SL is a more "controlled" environment than the World-Wide Web! The WWW is only subject to national laws on the countries where each server is physically located, but you can basically use it from wherever you wish, confusing and overstepping national barriers. SL has a limit on that freedom: you can't be an adult in the Teen Grid (or vice-versa for the main grid), you cannot use or employ "hate" in your freedom of expression, you have to abide by ToS and CS. Nothing of the sort exists on the WWW. Of couse this also means that there is no where to go to complain if some kind of content on the WWW offends you.

Well, I'm referring to the SL Environment (the world we live in, not the software or infrastructure/computers). I'm also referring not to violations of rules, where LL acts as enforcer where someone griefs another person, crashes the grid, or enforces things like no potty-mouth talk in PG areas or nudity in the open.

I'm talking about Linden Lab employees using God powers to circumvent the "rules" of SL (how groups work, proper sale of land) at the behest and benefit of other users. The specific circumstance I reference (known first hand to me because it was targeted against me) are a situation where...

1. The founder and an officer of a group was removed from the group by using Linden God powers and not the regular tools of the game (i.e. recall elections)
2. Land was transferred to Linden control and then to a regular user account control using Linden God powers rather than through the regular tools of the game (i.e. land sales) (furthermore, and not due to nonpayment of land tier or cancellation of account, which is the only way land is siezed)

I'm also talking about the participation in communications backchannels run by third parties by LL, where certain users are banned because of the said circumstance.

I'm also talking about censorship by Linden Lab employees about protesting against said circumstance and about Linden Lab actions/policies.

SL is not facist because it doesn't use terror and is not racist....


The USA is more so than SL so far.

They use Terror (bannings, illegal transfer of land, kickings from groups), but they are incapable of using race as there is only one race in SL: the avatar.

To even associate bannings, removal from groups, and the loss of land as anywhere even close to being terrorism is bizarre.

why are we confusing "terror" with "poor business practices"

no one is DEAD... at least you're not.

we should talk to the NAAFP about this.
(guess .. just guess )

I don't even think it was poor business practice.

The majority of a group claimed that one of the members of the group's land actually belonged to the group. That one member was you, and if you handled it like you handle any of these bizarre, delusional, paranoid debates, I am not surprised that LL ruled in favor of the group and not you.

In doing so, LL served the majority at your expense, which is favorable, since you seem to be a few marbles short.

Some advice? Step away from SL. You're taking it far too seriously.

It's just a chat site and a cooperative 3d modelling program. It isn't a substitute for real life. Stop panicking.

I voted for SL is pie, and a dictatorship.

So, if it is fascist, who cares...




Fascism does not have to be racist to be fascist (actually, Italian Fascism wasn't, although later on it became anti-semitic and introduced some sort of doctrine called "racialism". Nor does it have to employ terror. Fascist states are generally ruled by law. Terror, on the other hand, is a leftist concept.

Where is the "yes, but not enough" option?

Yup Hank, SL is so fascist, that you won a lot in the recent lottery..............


Come, on man, Italy was fascist, Germany was fascist, Argentina wsa fascist, Chile was fascist. Where are the concentration camps, death squads and media censorship tthat fascism employs.
If it was fascist, youd be bundled into a van, or cattle truck, and would simply dissapear for your dissention

Jesus H Christ, why am i even responding to such a puerile assertion.

"Terror is a leftist concept"

I think there may be an enormous number of "leftists" left a little aggrieved.

I can't really find myself considering, in its current incarnation, SL to be a governed state in any real sense. Governments manage countries by way of enforced law and legislation only. Linden have absolute power, making the only useful analogy that of an omnipotent God. Which, I'm sure, would raise this debate to even higher levels of hyperbole and inconsistence.

What we need to worry about, as I stated previously, is big corporate interest when the population of SL gets high enough to warrant it. This seems, given the current trends, inevitable. Indeed, I seem to be told when I log on that "MTV" are coming. That sounds pretty horrific.

Still, from the French Revolution to the October Revolution it is true.

As for your following two paragraphs: agreed, and agreed.

Well, Monique, I suppose one person's terrorists is another's freedom fighter.

I wonder where the SL's lefist revolutionaries are? They should drop me a line.

SL is a game arising from a commercial intiative to offer flexible user originated content in certain defined contexts for profit. You all can call it what you like, but it is completely subjective to characterize it politically as Fascistic, socialistic or anything else.... the reality is in your head. SL is not RL, so enjoy your escape, that is what SL truly is, an escapist activity that interfaces with RL in such a way that aspects of the game is manifest in RL. AKA the online tycoons. Personally I play to relax....

True enough, MK, taken from a purely contemporary and subjective perspective. I think the majority of those in SL enjoy the experience from exactly that standpoint.

However, if you were one of those who (as the press has us believe) is currently making a six figure USD annual income from SL then you would have a much greater interest in the mechanics of the system. For these people their real life and their second life are inextricably linked. Quite a precarious position, when I come to think about it...

Certainly it is short sighted to consider SL as simply escapist entertainment when considering it's future potential. As I have argued in this forum previously (to almost zero impact on you all...) the population of SL will get bigger. Much bigger. As it does more and more people will be making their staple income within the world.

If your RL living was coming largely or solely from SL it ceases to be escapist in any sense. Furthermore its political structure becomes almost as relevant as your own country's.

SL is an oligarchy.

~Ulrika~

Wow! I love how you put this. Funny thing is I have started a side game for myself in SL. I sat down and wrote up a business plan for 3 months. The thing is even tho I check the dwell keep everything in spreedsheets etc. It's all just in fun and I don't take it seriously. I was getting board and wanted to RP something different. Your absolutly right, on the outside I just seem like another player going to events, shopping, buildng, creating custom content, animatons and textures. AH but I have my business plan also going. Tbh I thnk it would be a riot if my RP turned into something tangable but I am not sure I would continue with it even if it is a sucess. Why? Because you can toss me in the with the pile of ppl who think SL is not RL but a form of entertainment and/or fun.

I just had to say something as I was reading your post over coffee and literaly thought "Hey someone gets it, how kewl is this" One quote in particular I love is this one;

"You all can call it what you like, but it is completely subjective to characterize it politically as Fascistic, socialistic or anything else.... the reality is in your head."

Keep posting and I will keep reading

Mar

Hmm you can log out of RL. Problem is you can't log back in.

God does not exist. ~SuezanneC

Hank Ramos I'm with you.

But..SL is pie! It says so on the poll.

<--- IS Fascist

SL is CowboyNeal.

Wait, this isn't Slashdot...