Second Life Forums Archive - Is SL Fascist?

Chip Midnight

ate my baby!

Join date: 1 May 2003

Posts: 10,231

01-02-2006 15:48

From: Hank Ramos

Actually, people like Chip and several other content creators work closely with LL to control things in SL.

Bwahahahaha! I do?! Damn, someone should fill me in on these things! Sorry to put a damper on your conspiracy theory but I have no more control over LL than any other resident (as in none at all).

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Khamon Fate

fategardens.net

Join date: 21 Nov 2003

Posts: 4,177

01-02-2006 15:53

You're all wrong. It's a world. It operates very much like Hell actually.

In any case, it's not a fascist state. If it were, the Bush guy would be outta here before you could rotate a sign.

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Zonax Delorean

Registered User

Join date: 5 Jun 2004

Posts: 767

01-02-2006 16:44

I have to agree 100% with Khamon.

No dictator here. In the bush case, I'd say, sadly.

Fade Languish

I just build stuff...

Join date: 20 Oct 2005

Posts: 1,760

no

01-02-2006 19:01

Upon reflection, I can think of one major point of variance between SL and a fascist state (and this is no gem of political science)... generally speaking, fascist states are not enjoyable places to live... and generally speaking, I find SL an enjoyable place.
In fact, I think you are trivialising the word fascist - and with history being what it is, what with WWII, the Holocaust etc... perhaps this is a word that should not be trivialised.

Ranma Tardis

沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水

Join date: 8 Nov 2005

Posts: 1,415

My Last thoughts on this

01-02-2006 19:22

After reading some of the posts……...ah, professional help is available.

The big difference is that SL is a GAME and a voluntary activity. In RL you can not get away from the state and its minions. Disagree with SL and the worse that can happen is to get banned from the game. Disagree with a Fascists state and you can become, unemployed, deported, imprisoned or killed. Enough said?

Fade Languish

I just build stuff...

Join date: 20 Oct 2005

Posts: 1,760

Quite!

01-02-2006 20:22

From: Ranma Tardis

Disagree with SL and the worse that can happen is to get banned from the game. Disagree with a Fascists state and you can become, unemployed, deported, imprisoned or killed. Enough said?

Yes. If you find Sl that oppressive... err... leave? You have that option, unlike say, North Korea.

Cristiano Midnight

Evil Snapshot Baron

Join date: 17 May 2003

Posts: 8,616

01-02-2006 20:27

From: Chip Midnight

Bwahahahaha! I do?! Damn, someone should fill me in on these things! Sorry to put a damper on your conspiracy theory but I have no more control over LL than any other resident (as in none at all).

I will fill you in on those things at the next meeting. Make sure you bring those brownies you made the last time, they were very "relaxing".

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Cristiano

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Cristiano Midnight

Evil Snapshot Baron

Join date: 17 May 2003

Posts: 8,616

01-02-2006 20:29

From: Hank Ramos

No, FIC is not a philosophical idealogy. It's a group of thugs in SL that works closely with LL to...

1. Get and give early info on developments in the SL world.
2. Announce and test entrance into the live grid when the world is down for upgrade/griefing
3. To bounce ideas around about how to ban/abuse certain real SL accounts inworld
4. To answer questions about subsystems of the SL world that may affect the various FIC ventures (can't name them because it's against TOS, but you know who/what they are as I've said them before)
etc.

This group can also keep others away from speaking in this "protected circle" (aka the #secondlife IRC chat room) using their own rules. LL can speak there to they people they deem "FIC" and don't have to deal with the riff-raff of the SL world (as the FIC considers some people). But, LL can't ban people because they don't like them, so they hang out in a "protected circle" room and let the thugs do the dirty work.

Here is an analogy: Camp Gitmo in Cuba and outher "outside-the-USA" camps. The USA can't torture people or hold people without being subjected to the USA constitution. But outside of the USA, we can jump through this "legal loophole" and get away with anything.

Wow you continue to reach new levels of absurdity. I didn't think you had it in you, Hank. Bravo! Comparing the IRC channel, which I might add that you participated in for more than a year, to Guantanamo Bay is bizarre. It must suck not only feeling like you have no power, but being convinced everyone else is plotting against you. I would hate to live my life in such a paranoid and delusional state.

Considering everyone else can get into that channel but you, it's not a very exclusive group now is it?

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Cristiano

ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less.

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Zapoteth Zaius

Is back

Join date: 14 Feb 2004

Posts: 5,634

01-02-2006 20:30

A company.. But its full of pie so I put pie...

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Hank Ramos

Lifetime Scripter

Join date: 15 Nov 2003

Posts: 2,328

01-03-2006 03:01

From: Fade Languish

Upon reflection, I can think of one major point of variance between SL and a fascist state (and this is no gem of political science)... generally speaking, fascist states are not enjoyable places to live... and generally speaking, I find SL an enjoyable place.
In fact, I think you are trivialising the word fascist - and with history being what it is, what with WWII, the Holocaust etc... perhaps this is a word that should not be trivialised.

Actually, you are wrong. I never said SL was nazi. SL has a fascist form of government, not nazi. Get your facts and history straight.

Fade Languish

I just build stuff...

Join date: 20 Oct 2005

Posts: 1,760

I give you 1/4 point.

01-03-2006 04:36

From: Hank Ramos

Actually, you are wrong. I never said SL was nazi. SL has a fascist form of government, not nazi. Get your facts and history straight.

From wikipedia: "Fascism (in Italian, fascismo), capitalized, was the authoritarian political movement which ruled Italy from 1922 to 1943 under the leadership of Benito Mussolini. Similar political movements, including Nazism, spread across Europe between World War I and World War II."

Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy were allies, correct? And as you can see, in this definition at least, they are defined as 'simliar'.
And a Google search on the word fascist comes up with an Amazon booklist entitled "How do nations turn Fascist? The German model as speculation"... So I'm not alone in making the connection.
So I give you 0.25 points for that one

Chip Midnight

ate my baby!

Join date: 1 May 2003

Posts: 10,231

01-03-2006 06:58

From: Cristiano Midnight

I will fill you in on those things at the next meeting. Make sure you bring those brownies you made the last time, they were very "relaxing".

If I've had all this power but was too "relaxed" to notice it maybe I need to cut back on the brownies a bit.

Bah, who wants power anyway. I'll bring a double batch.

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Nolan Nash

Frischer Frosch

Join date: 15 May 2003

Posts: 7,141

01-03-2006 09:58

From: Hank Ramos

Actually, people like Chip and several other content creators work closely with LL to control things in SL. It's not a conspiracy theory but fact. Some residents can get special favors or have "database accidents" happen to people they don't agree with. Several residents have been affected, silenced, banned, harassed, threatened in SL and in RL from these people. They aren't your friends. You think I'd just throw away the years I've spent in SL, the things I've created, the friendships I've made just to throw it all away on some kind of delision?

LL is corrupt and so are the members of the FIC, whether they realize it or not.

Hank, I feel sorry for you.

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Cristiano Midnight

Evil Snapshot Baron

Join date: 17 May 2003

Posts: 8,616

01-03-2006 10:45

From: Hank Ramos

Actually, people like Chip and several other content creators work closely with LL to control things in SL. It's not a conspiracy theory but fact. Some residents can get special favors or have "database accidents" happen to people they don't agree with. Several residents have been affected, silenced, banned, harassed, threatened in SL and in RL from these people. They aren't your friends. You think I'd just throw away the years I've spent in SL, the things I've created, the friendships I've made just to throw it all away on some kind of delision?

LL is corrupt and so are the members of the FIC, whether they realize it or not.

Wow, now you are publicly accusing LL of purposely damaging the accounts of people they don't like. That is quite a strong accusation, which you are stating as fact.

_____________________

Cristiano

ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less.

~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more.

Cherry Delorean

Registered User

Join date: 17 Jun 2004

Posts: 20

01-03-2006 11:05

SL is a fascist state, it has to be. It's a business where a the leadeship running it has full power over all residents lives in SL.

Whether leadership is benevolent or not isn't the question. If leadership chose not to be they could at their whim.

But it's a business and can really be no other way.

As for "inner circle" and that type of garbage... Lindens talk with customers, and have relationships regarding development, ideas etc. just like any other business does. They work with those who are easiest to work with and who productively help them further Lindens business goals. It's pretty simple.

It's also normal that those they do not deal with on that level cannot understand this and assume some "secret society" or other fantasy as they cannot percieve why they are not someone a business owner can productively collaborate with. That's also pretty simple.

Fade Languish

I just build stuff...

Join date: 20 Oct 2005

Posts: 1,760

01-03-2006 19:57

From: Hank Ramos

Actually, you are wrong. I never said SL was nazi. SL has a fascist form of government, not nazi. Get your facts and history straight.

Actually you are wrong and I now give you 0 points. From The Teacher's Guide To The Holocaust (http://www.remember.org/guide/index.html#Facts): "The government of Nazi Germany was a fascist, totalitarian state."
Do a Google search on the words 'fascist Germany' and you will come across endless academic works about FASCIST Nazi Germany. So get your facts and history straight

Paradise Popinjay

Registered User

Join date: 1 Jan 2006

Posts: 29

01-04-2006 03:13

That the Nazi Party operated a fascist state does not mean Hitler's National Socialism has the monopoly on fascism. There always seems to be a 39-45 Holocaust vito on every free political debate.

Anyway. What it was, what it is, what it soon will be.

At 100,000 residents, and about 3-10% of those online at any one time any talk of govermental systems can only be related to pushy parish councils. The place is not that big.

That 100,000 residents includes, as I understand and accepting Linden figures, an increase of 80% in the last three months. That is enourmous, and with the nature of internet marketing that kind of rise could prove exponential within the next year.

The number of residents would start to get into the kind of figures that will attract major commerce, not least from countries where the Linden is much closer to their own currency than it is to the USD or Sterling.

My question is: When Nike arrives, what will happen?

Paradise Popinjay

Registered User

Join date: 1 Jan 2006

Posts: 29

01-04-2006 03:22

Plus, man, when did Google and bloody Wiki bloody made by dubiously informed nobodies Pedia become the centre of academic research? We seem to be rewriting history ourselves faster than Hitler or Bush ever could.

My apologies for that little outburst. I shall behave myself in the future.

Fade Languish

I just build stuff...

Join date: 20 Oct 2005

Posts: 1,760

01-04-2006 04:14

From: Paradise Popinjay

That the Nazi Party operated a fascist state does not mean Hitler's National Socialism has the monopoly on fascism. There always seems to be a 39-45 Holocaust vito on every free political debate.QUOTE]

I don't think I suggested they have a monopoly, I just used them as an example of how extreme a fascist state really is... and I certainly didn't place a 'veto' on anything... all I said was "perhaps" this should not be trivialised... which does leave open the option that "perhaps" that's ok... and just as the Nazi party doesn't have a 'monopoly' on fascism, they don't have a monopoly on atrocities either... so another example could have been equally valid.
I realise I quoted a Holocaust reference, but only to illustrate that Nazi Germany was considered a fascist state. I was told to get my 'facts and history straight' and I did just that... but I certainly never 'vetoed' anything. I just disagreed a bit. I am equally prepared to be disagreed with. And make a good enough point, you may even win me over to your opinion. Isn't that just participating in said 'free political debate'?
Ok and I don't think I claimed Google as an authority... I merely used it as the search engine it is to see if I was wrong and Hank was right, and found numerous articles by academics, historical publications etc all describing Germany as a Nazi state... I even read some of them. Just look for yourself. I am not rewriting anything. To be honest, for some reason you seem kind of inflamed I mentioned the Holocaust... I'm not sure why... is there a veto on bringing it up?
Hank, if there is something I'm missing, and you can show me I'm wrong about the whole Nazi thing being fascist, I will accept your correction with a smile! Cos I don't know everything... yet...

Paradise Popinjay

Registered User

Join date: 1 Jan 2006

Posts: 29

01-04-2006 04:49

My apologies, Fade, I had no intention of insulting you. And I'm afraid my main comment, that of commercial interest, maybe lost.

My point is that Fascism is not necesarily as extreme as the Nazi party were. To consider all fascist states as diabolical as Nazi Germany is misleading.

Fade Languish

I just build stuff...

Join date: 20 Oct 2005

Posts: 1,760

01-04-2006 05:24

Heh heh Paradise that's more than fine... my skin is thicker than that... if it wasn't I wouldn't risk my noobie ass posting on these forums... I've read the other threads! Yes, probably they weren't all as diabolical as Nazi Germany. That would be hard to achieve. But I think we would both agree none of them were particularly nice, and they all did/do some pretty bad things. I just think that fascism is a rather extreme value of the political spectrum, perhaps a bit too extreme to be compared to SL. Supposing Hank is right, then perhaps a more valid comparison would be to a corrupt corporation...
I confess, your point re: commercial interest was lost on me (feel free to repeat it, in another way), but that could be my fault. I also confess to sloppy referencing

Athena Maeterlinck

Registered User

Join date: 11 Nov 2005

Posts: 24

01-04-2006 15:29

Furthermore, for the same amount of effort required to be a modestly capable Silver Ranger Light Elf, one could make a living wage out of SL...

Not really, no. To make a living in SL requires a lot more skill and practice. There is also some elements of just plain luck and some investment capital. Not nearly as many people have successful businesses here as many seem to believe.

SL is not a 'game' per se. Its more of an idealized social program. My personal favorite description is 'Advanced GUI IRC'. Its not fascist really. Its a very nice service being provided but looking at it using references to real world I would describe it as an Oligarchy bordering on feudalism. The few people who create and control all in-world aspects at Linden are the true overarching government of the program. Their word and act is law to a near godlike degree. Any person who utilizes it is beholden to their rules and board of directors. Within the program only a very few hold large tracts of land. If anyone wishes to have or use space within SL or do anything on those lands they are then beholden to one of those few landlords and it becomes a more feudalistic situation.

Hank Ramos

Lifetime Scripter

Join date: 15 Nov 2003

Posts: 2,328

01-04-2006 17:17

From: Fade Languish

Actually you are wrong and I now give you 0 points. From The Teacher's Guide To The Holocaust (http://www.remember.org/guide/index.html#Facts): "The government of Nazi Germany was a fascist, totalitarian state."
Do a Google search on the words 'fascist Germany' and you will come across endless academic works about FASCIST Nazi Germany. So get your facts and history straight

Facism and nazism are not the same thing. SL is facist, so was nazi Germany. But only with respect to facist ideals (centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through censorship and a policy of belligerent nationalism.). Nazi Germany is also accociated with the acts of the holocaust which SL has nothing to do with. You are confusing yourself.

Fade Languish

I just build stuff...

Join date: 20 Oct 2005

Posts: 1,760

01-04-2006 19:26

From: Hank Ramos

Facism and nazism are not the same thing. SL is facist, so was nazi Germany.

err... did I say they were the same thing... I think I said Nazi Germany was fascist, which you told me was incorrect, but now you seem to agree. Hmmm. I didn't state nazi = fascist. I also drew no comparisons beween SL and the Holocaust... it was merely offered as an illustration of "PERHAPS" (there's that word again) why the word fascist should not be devalued.

Now, returning to your definition of fascism:
Where are the 'stringent socio-economic controls'?
'Supression of the opposition through terror and censorship', firstly, who are the opposition, and how have they been supressed via terror and censorship? This would have to amount to more than a particular take on why individual bans etc were applied.
You have stated SL is a dictatorship, but stating it does not make it so. First of all you need to prove that initial assumption. SL is a business, we are it's customers.

Dorvalla Petion

Clone Brusher

Join date: 26 Dec 2005

Posts: 27

01-05-2006 05:25

I think Linden Lab is more dictatorship. Linden Lab reads our "demands" but doesn't use them often. At least, that's how i see it. My oppinion.... *don't slap me Linden Lab*

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Is SL Fascist?
Chip Midnight ate my baby! Join date: 1 May 2003 Posts: 10,231	01-02-2006 15:48 From: Hank Ramos Actually, people like Chip and several other content creators work closely with LL to control things in SL. Bwahahahaha! I do?! Damn, someone should fill me in on these things! Sorry to put a damper on your conspiracy theory but I have no more control over LL than any other resident (as in none at all). _____________________ My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight
Khamon Fate fategardens.net Join date: 21 Nov 2003 Posts: 4,177	01-02-2006 15:53 You're all wrong. It's a world. It operates very much like Hell actually. In any case, it's not a fascist state. If it were, the Bush guy would be outta here before you could rotate a sign. _____________________ Visit the Fate Gardens Website @ fategardens.net
Zonax Delorean Registered User Join date: 5 Jun 2004 Posts: 767	01-02-2006 16:44 I have to agree 100% with Khamon. No dictator here. In the bush case, I'd say, sadly.
Fade Languish I just build stuff... Join date: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 1,760	no 01-02-2006 19:01 Upon reflection, I can think of one major point of variance between SL and a fascist state (and this is no gem of political science)... generally speaking, fascist states are not enjoyable places to live... and generally speaking, I find SL an enjoyable place. In fact, I think you are trivialising the word fascist - and with history being what it is, what with WWII, the Holocaust etc... perhaps this is a word that should not be trivialised.
Ranma Tardis 沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水 Join date: 8 Nov 2005 Posts: 1,415	My Last thoughts on this 01-02-2006 19:22 After reading some of the posts……...ah, professional help is available. The big difference is that SL is a GAME and a voluntary activity. In RL you can not get away from the state and its minions. Disagree with SL and the worse that can happen is to get banned from the game. Disagree with a Fascists state and you can become, unemployed, deported, imprisoned or killed. Enough said?
Fade Languish I just build stuff... Join date: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 1,760	Quite! 01-02-2006 20:22 From: Ranma Tardis Disagree with SL and the worse that can happen is to get banned from the game. Disagree with a Fascists state and you can become, unemployed, deported, imprisoned or killed. Enough said? Yes. If you find Sl that oppressive... err... leave? You have that option, unlike say, North Korea.
Cristiano Midnight Evil Snapshot Baron Join date: 17 May 2003 Posts: 8,616	01-02-2006 20:27 From: Chip Midnight Bwahahahaha! I do?! Damn, someone should fill me in on these things! Sorry to put a damper on your conspiracy theory but I have no more control over LL than any other resident (as in none at all). I will fill you in on those things at the next meeting. Make sure you bring those brownies you made the last time, they were very "relaxing". _____________________ Cristiano ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less. ~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more.
Cristiano Midnight Evil Snapshot Baron Join date: 17 May 2003 Posts: 8,616	01-02-2006 20:29 From: Hank Ramos No, FIC is not a philosophical idealogy. It's a group of thugs in SL that works closely with LL to... 1. Get and give early info on developments in the SL world. 2. Announce and test entrance into the live grid when the world is down for upgrade/griefing 3. To bounce ideas around about how to ban/abuse certain real SL accounts inworld 4. To answer questions about subsystems of the SL world that may affect the various FIC ventures (can't name them because it's against TOS, but you know who/what they are as I've said them before) etc. This group can also keep others away from speaking in this "protected circle" (aka the #secondlife IRC chat room) using their own rules. LL can speak there to they people they deem "FIC" and don't have to deal with the riff-raff of the SL world (as the FIC considers some people). But, LL can't ban people because they don't like them, so they hang out in a "protected circle" room and let the thugs do the dirty work. Here is an analogy: Camp Gitmo in Cuba and outher "outside-the-USA" camps. The USA can't torture people or hold people without being subjected to the USA constitution. But outside of the USA, we can jump through this "legal loophole" and get away with anything. Wow you continue to reach new levels of absurdity. I didn't think you had it in you, Hank. Bravo! Comparing the IRC channel, which I might add that you participated in for more than a year, to Guantanamo Bay is bizarre. It must suck not only feeling like you have no power, but being convinced everyone else is plotting against you. I would hate to live my life in such a paranoid and delusional state. Considering everyone else can get into that channel but you, it's not a very exclusive group now is it? _____________________ Cristiano ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less. ~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more.
Zapoteth Zaius Is back Join date: 14 Feb 2004 Posts: 5,634	01-02-2006 20:30 A company.. But its full of pie so I put pie... _____________________ I have the right to remain silent. Anything I say will be misquoted and used against me. --------------- Zapoteth Designs, Temotu (100,50) ---------------
Hank Ramos Lifetime Scripter Join date: 15 Nov 2003 Posts: 2,328	01-03-2006 03:01 From: Fade Languish Upon reflection, I can think of one major point of variance between SL and a fascist state (and this is no gem of political science)... generally speaking, fascist states are not enjoyable places to live... and generally speaking, I find SL an enjoyable place. In fact, I think you are trivialising the word fascist - and with history being what it is, what with WWII, the Holocaust etc... perhaps this is a word that should not be trivialised. Actually, you are wrong. I never said SL was nazi. SL has a fascist form of government, not nazi. Get your facts and history straight.
Fade Languish I just build stuff... Join date: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 1,760	I give you 1/4 point. 01-03-2006 04:36 From: Hank Ramos Actually, you are wrong. I never said SL was nazi. SL has a fascist form of government, not nazi. Get your facts and history straight. From wikipedia: "Fascism (in Italian, fascismo), capitalized, was the authoritarian political movement which ruled Italy from 1922 to 1943 under the leadership of Benito Mussolini. Similar political movements, including Nazism, spread across Europe between World War I and World War II." Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy were allies, correct? And as you can see, in this definition at least, they are defined as 'simliar'. And a Google search on the word fascist comes up with an Amazon booklist entitled "How do nations turn Fascist? The German model as speculation"... So I'm not alone in making the connection. So I give you 0.25 points for that one
Chip Midnight ate my baby! Join date: 1 May 2003 Posts: 10,231	01-03-2006 06:58 From: Cristiano Midnight I will fill you in on those things at the next meeting. Make sure you bring those brownies you made the last time, they were very "relaxing". If I've had all this power but was too "relaxed" to notice it maybe I need to cut back on the brownies a bit. Bah, who wants power anyway. I'll bring a double batch. _____________________ My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight
Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141	01-03-2006 09:58 From: Hank Ramos Actually, people like Chip and several other content creators work closely with LL to control things in SL. It's not a conspiracy theory but fact. Some residents can get special favors or have "database accidents" happen to people they don't agree with. Several residents have been affected, silenced, banned, harassed, threatened in SL and in RL from these people. They aren't your friends. You think I'd just throw away the years I've spent in SL, the things I've created, the friendships I've made just to throw it all away on some kind of delision? LL is corrupt and so are the members of the FIC, whether they realize it or not. Hank, I feel sorry for you. _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit
Cristiano Midnight Evil Snapshot Baron Join date: 17 May 2003 Posts: 8,616	01-03-2006 10:45 From: Hank Ramos Actually, people like Chip and several other content creators work closely with LL to control things in SL. It's not a conspiracy theory but fact. Some residents can get special favors or have "database accidents" happen to people they don't agree with. Several residents have been affected, silenced, banned, harassed, threatened in SL and in RL from these people. They aren't your friends. You think I'd just throw away the years I've spent in SL, the things I've created, the friendships I've made just to throw it all away on some kind of delision? LL is corrupt and so are the members of the FIC, whether they realize it or not. Wow, now you are publicly accusing LL of purposely damaging the accounts of people they don't like. That is quite a strong accusation, which you are stating as fact. _____________________ Cristiano ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less. ~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more.
Cherry Delorean Registered User Join date: 17 Jun 2004 Posts: 20	01-03-2006 11:05 SL is a fascist state, it has to be. It's a business where a the leadeship running it has full power over all residents lives in SL. Whether leadership is benevolent or not isn't the question. If leadership chose not to be they could at their whim. But it's a business and can really be no other way. As for "inner circle" and that type of garbage... Lindens talk with customers, and have relationships regarding development, ideas etc. just like any other business does. They work with those who are easiest to work with and who productively help them further Lindens business goals. It's pretty simple. It's also normal that those they do not deal with on that level cannot understand this and assume some "secret society" or other fantasy as they cannot percieve why they are not someone a business owner can productively collaborate with. That's also pretty simple.
Fade Languish I just build stuff... Join date: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 1,760	01-03-2006 19:57 From: Hank Ramos Actually, you are wrong. I never said SL was nazi. SL has a fascist form of government, not nazi. Get your facts and history straight. Actually you are wrong and I now give you 0 points. From The Teacher's Guide To The Holocaust (http://www.remember.org/guide/index.html#Facts): "The government of Nazi Germany was a fascist, totalitarian state." Do a Google search on the words 'fascist Germany' and you will come across endless academic works about FASCIST Nazi Germany. So get your facts and history straight
Paradise Popinjay Registered User Join date: 1 Jan 2006 Posts: 29	01-04-2006 03:13 That the Nazi Party operated a fascist state does not mean Hitler's National Socialism has the monopoly on fascism. There always seems to be a 39-45 Holocaust vito on every free political debate. Anyway. What it was, what it is, what it soon will be. At 100,000 residents, and about 3-10% of those online at any one time any talk of govermental systems can only be related to pushy parish councils. The place is not that big. That 100,000 residents includes, as I understand and accepting Linden figures, an increase of 80% in the last three months. That is enourmous, and with the nature of internet marketing that kind of rise could prove exponential within the next year. The number of residents would start to get into the kind of figures that will attract major commerce, not least from countries where the Linden is much closer to their own currency than it is to the USD or Sterling. My question is: When Nike arrives, what will happen?
Paradise Popinjay Registered User Join date: 1 Jan 2006 Posts: 29	01-04-2006 03:22 Plus, man, when did Google and bloody Wiki bloody made by dubiously informed nobodies Pedia become the centre of academic research? We seem to be rewriting history ourselves faster than Hitler or Bush ever could. My apologies for that little outburst. I shall behave myself in the future.
Fade Languish I just build stuff... Join date: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 1,760	01-04-2006 04:14 From: Paradise Popinjay That the Nazi Party operated a fascist state does not mean Hitler's National Socialism has the monopoly on fascism. There always seems to be a 39-45 Holocaust vito on every free political debate.QUOTE] I don't think I suggested they have a monopoly, I just used them as an example of how extreme a fascist state really is... and I certainly didn't place a 'veto' on anything... all I said was "perhaps" this should not be trivialised... which does leave open the option that "perhaps" that's ok... and just as the Nazi party doesn't have a 'monopoly' on fascism, they don't have a monopoly on atrocities either... so another example could have been equally valid. I realise I quoted a Holocaust reference, but only to illustrate that Nazi Germany was considered a fascist state. I was told to get my 'facts and history straight' and I did just that... but I certainly never 'vetoed' anything. I just disagreed a bit. I am equally prepared to be disagreed with. And make a good enough point, you may even win me over to your opinion. Isn't that just participating in said 'free political debate'? Ok and I don't think I claimed Google as an authority... I merely used it as the search engine it is to see if I was wrong and Hank was right, and found numerous articles by academics, historical publications etc all describing Germany as a Nazi state... I even read some of them. Just look for yourself. I am not rewriting anything. To be honest, for some reason you seem kind of inflamed I mentioned the Holocaust... I'm not sure why... is there a veto on bringing it up? Hank, if there is something I'm missing, and you can show me I'm wrong about the whole Nazi thing being fascist, I will accept your correction with a smile! Cos I don't know everything... yet...
Paradise Popinjay Registered User Join date: 1 Jan 2006 Posts: 29	01-04-2006 04:49 My apologies, Fade, I had no intention of insulting you. And I'm afraid my main comment, that of commercial interest, maybe lost. My point is that Fascism is not necesarily as extreme as the Nazi party were. To consider all fascist states as diabolical as Nazi Germany is misleading.
Fade Languish I just build stuff... Join date: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 1,760	01-04-2006 05:24 Heh heh Paradise that's more than fine... my skin is thicker than that... if it wasn't I wouldn't risk my noobie ass posting on these forums... I've read the other threads! Yes, probably they weren't all as diabolical as Nazi Germany. That would be hard to achieve. But I think we would both agree none of them were particularly nice, and they all did/do some pretty bad things. I just think that fascism is a rather extreme value of the political spectrum, perhaps a bit too extreme to be compared to SL. Supposing Hank is right, then perhaps a more valid comparison would be to a corrupt corporation... I confess, your point re: commercial interest was lost on me (feel free to repeat it, in another way), but that could be my fault. I also confess to sloppy referencing
Athena Maeterlinck Registered User Join date: 11 Nov 2005 Posts: 24	01-04-2006 15:29 Furthermore, for the same amount of effort required to be a modestly capable Silver Ranger Light Elf, one could make a living wage out of SL... Not really, no. To make a living in SL requires a lot more skill and practice. There is also some elements of just plain luck and some investment capital. Not nearly as many people have successful businesses here as many seem to believe. SL is not a 'game' per se. Its more of an idealized social program. My personal favorite description is 'Advanced GUI IRC'. Its not fascist really. Its a very nice service being provided but looking at it using references to real world I would describe it as an Oligarchy bordering on feudalism. The few people who create and control all in-world aspects at Linden are the true overarching government of the program. Their word and act is law to a near godlike degree. Any person who utilizes it is beholden to their rules and board of directors. Within the program only a very few hold large tracts of land. If anyone wishes to have or use space within SL or do anything on those lands they are then beholden to one of those few landlords and it becomes a more feudalistic situation.
Hank Ramos Lifetime Scripter Join date: 15 Nov 2003 Posts: 2,328	01-04-2006 17:17 From: Fade Languish Actually you are wrong and I now give you 0 points. From The Teacher's Guide To The Holocaust (http://www.remember.org/guide/index.html#Facts): "The government of Nazi Germany was a fascist, totalitarian state." Do a Google search on the words 'fascist Germany' and you will come across endless academic works about FASCIST Nazi Germany. So get your facts and history straight Facism and nazism are not the same thing. SL is facist, so was nazi Germany. But only with respect to facist ideals (centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through censorship and a policy of belligerent nationalism.). Nazi Germany is also accociated with the acts of the holocaust which SL has nothing to do with. You are confusing yourself.
Fade Languish I just build stuff... Join date: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 1,760	01-04-2006 19:26 From: Hank Ramos Facism and nazism are not the same thing. SL is facist, so was nazi Germany. err... did I say they were the same thing... I think I said Nazi Germany was fascist, which you told me was incorrect, but now you seem to agree. Hmmm. I didn't state nazi = fascist. I also drew no comparisons beween SL and the Holocaust... it was merely offered as an illustration of "PERHAPS" (there's that word again) why the word fascist should not be devalued. Now, returning to your definition of fascism: Where are the 'stringent socio-economic controls'? 'Supression of the opposition through terror and censorship', firstly, who are the opposition, and how have they been supressed via terror and censorship? This would have to amount to more than a particular take on why individual bans etc were applied. You have stated SL is a dictatorship, but stating it does not make it so. First of all you need to prove that initial assumption. SL is a business, we are it's customers.
Dorvalla Petion Clone Brusher Join date: 26 Dec 2005 Posts: 27	01-05-2006 05:25 I think Linden Lab is more dictatorship. Linden Lab reads our "demands" but doesn't use them often. At least, that's how i see it. My oppinion.... don't slap me Linden Lab _____________________ A signature is coming, prepare to be rocked !!!!

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Is SL Fascist?