Is SL Fascist?

which he never said.

well.. my friend Mary Jane says that her colleague Diamonds.. you know, Lucy S. Diamonds? Anyway, she told Mary that once she read that Timothy Leary had said

and Lucy said that she thought that dropping out would be like logging out.. wouldn't it?


saying SL is 'just a corporation' or it's 'not RL' and making the conclusion that it is thereby not relatable to social systems seems to me to be a result of obtuse thinking, or a cop out... businesses do have social political structure and being able to remove yourself from a social bounds does not mean it has no structure.. it seems that line of thinking would correlate to saying the shriners do not have a system because they can take off the funny hats!?

with that said, I guess I have to come up with something!? .. soo....right.... I guess I would say SL is a world characterised by 'inhabitants' that come and go as they please, are mostly without rights and rules, while based strongly on a free market economy, and with managment being very hands off .. the closest I can think of is some pseudo anarcho-capitalist system where LL have the position of benevolent deities that are not rulers but do impact and change the inhabitants lives sometimes without rhyme or reason, you know, for example like the gods in the illiad / odyssey!?

.. although, maybe one could just say "LL is the pusher to our addictiion" .. where, "the first taste is free.. " oh... isn't the pusher/addict a social political structure? .. er.. maybe not.

Saying SL is a Fascist state and giving them money makes somone a financial supporter of fascist. Any medium that brings people together is going to have social dynamics. Thanks for pointing the obvious. The fact is it’s a business and it's manipulated by the LL Company to maximize profit.

Ok now explain what's the cop out? Cop out of what? Saying SL has a single political dynamic is obtuse thinking. It's like saying Europe has a single political philosophy.

SL does not have a culture or political structure at all.
You can go to different parts of it and find different social and cultural practices happening. In some areas, you may even find a small bit of political banter.

Further, since it has no physical boundaries and is not recognized as a state by real governments and states, it cannot be considered a state at all. It is, as has been mentioned, a simulation created by a company.

At its basest form this makes it (obviously) a client-server application, where the server owners may do whatever they wish, since they pay for it. There is no governmental structure to be attributed to this.
It is no different than owning a house, and deciding who may visit your house, and what rules need to be observed in your house. I do this with my house, but that hardly makes the way I manage my household 'fascist' or a 'state'.

Please please pardon my slightly twisted humor on the matter...

(Sarcasm) Indeed it is a medium, so called because it is neither rare nor well-done.(/Sarcasm)

I usually do not post frivolously, but his thread just asked for it. The internet is a medium, Sl is a virtual chat room, and Linden Labs, for all its' flaws and successes, is STILL a corporate entity. No matter how much any and all may wish to believe otherwise, in ANY direction, pro or con, these are the facts. This debate distinctly reminds me of when I was very young and I fought with my parents screaming they were Nazi (they weren't) because I protested their actions. Please, folks, if this was born of a dislike for LL's actions, stop trying to vilify them into something they aren't. They're a corporation. SL is what amounts to, in its' current incarnation, a virtual chat room with some artistic add-ins. Not very much a game, as there is no point nor plot nor objective, except as you give yourself. If I offend with this candidness, I'm sorry, but it is to me this simple.
Please do pardon my rant in what began for me as a post made in jest, until I realized just how childish this whole debate was and it prompted me into a rare rant.

With respect to all,
Mika Kyubi (Muromachi)
Kitsune-at-Large
(Who wants her name of Kyubi in SL!)

driving force of all world economies. So, if these forums were written in 1882, and when people discussed the social and political implications of electrical power in the future (like they certainly did!), you would probably say something like the following:

"People, let's get real. This is just a lightbulb, for Christ's sake! We have gas lamps and candles, it's not as if it's something special. It's just a piece of glass with a wire inside. We know what electricity is! Thomas Edison is just another clever guy with a new invention. And what does his company do? Power up a bit of Manhattan! It's just a square mile that is on the 'power grid', it's not as if it is the whole world, isn't it? Besides, who cares if you have electricity or not? Gas is fine for me, thank you very much. And his company is just one tiny corporate company that brings us some light during the night. It's silly to discuss what it will become in the future, or if we should worry about Mr Edison's 'policies' in the years to come. Discussing that is childish, pointless, and a waste of time."

Nowadays General Electric is the #2 company on the Forbes 2000 index.

Ok, turning off my own sarcasm mode

With all your sarcasm I think I missed your point

SL is a corporate company. Fact.

The Internet is a medium. Fact in 2005; arguable in 1993; laughable in the late 1980s; unimaginable in 1969; unexisting in 1950. So what? Definitions evolve over time.

SL a virtual chat room with some artistic add-ins. Well, of course it is. But Windows is just a bunch of rectangles on a pixelated screen that you can push around with your mouse and call it "work". Both definitions are absolutely correct. But neither are much helpful. (Microsoft would probably complain about the reductionist definition of what their product is)

When Microsoft became a de facto monopoly on personal computer operating systems, or when the Internet, for all purposes, displaced all other forms of inter-networking technologies, people discussed about "policy" — about the way companies and organisations used their technology to promote agendas, to accomplish things, to manipulate consumers' opinions, to drive the economy (remember Y2K and the Internet bubble?) or to collapse it. Where they also "silly and childish debates"? (they are still going on)

In 1879, Thomas Edison invented the lightbulb. In 1882, he started a company to power up those lightbulbs he invented. Today, electricity is the driving force of all world economies, but, if these forums were written in 1882, and when people discussed the social and political implications of electrical power in the future (like they certainly did!), you would probably say something like the following:

"People, let's get real. This is just a lightbulb, for Christ's sake! We have gas lamps and candles, it's not as if it's something special. It's just a piece of glass with a wire inside. We know what electricity is! Thomas Edison is just another clever guy with a new invention. And what does his company do? Power up a bit of Manhattan! It's just a square mile that is on the 'power grid', it's not as if it is the whole world, isn't it? Besides, who cares if you have electricity or not? Gas is fine for me, thank you very much. And his company is just one tiny corporate company that brings us some light during the night. It's silly to discuss what it will become in the future, or if we should worry about Mr Edison's 'policies' in the years to come. Discussing that is childish, pointless, and a waste of time."

Nowadays General Electric is the #2 company on the Forbes 2000 index.

Ok, turning off my own sarcasm mode So, what are the differences between the above examples and Second Life?

I don't see much difference in the examples. SL has something rather innovative going -- they've successfully created and marketed a rather innovative communication/chat medium that will likely become more and more commonplace in the future.

That said, it still cannot be attributed a form of government, or the title 'state', which was what the original poster is implying.

Second Life is a game and Linden Labs is a company. The Lindens are company employees and the Residents are customers.

It is natural tha a company sets the rules, how about making all companies democracies! This is a silly thread!

Exactly. This thread is just another attempt by Hank to whine about the FIC and LL.

Nice cheap-shot Cristiano. Now, why don't you discuss the topic of this thread rather than attacking me?

SL can speak to dead people?

PS ~ I thought Hank founded the FIC

This poll has made it clear that SL is Pie.



*eats SL*

Sh*t, I have always thought SL is an online game O.o

What is the FIC????

I'm OK with SL being a fascist state if I get to be the Great Tyrant.

... I'm not kidding here!!

FIC = Feted Inner Core. It's a paranoid conspiracy theory invented by one of SL's more prolific and vitriolic forum trolls who was subsequently banned from the forums. It posits that certain beta members and content creators are in bed with Linden Lab and actually pull the strings. Supposedly they get special treatment, extra perks, and "run the game." Basically it's nothing more than the paranoid ravings of a very bitter person. It's also been lampooned ever since and has become a bit of a joke (except when someone wants to blame something on someone - generally for something they themselves are actually responsible for - then the FIC surfaces again *waves at Hank*).

Here's some parody art on the topic http://www.fetedinnercore.com/media.html

Actually, people like Chip and several other content creators work closely with LL to control things in SL. It's not a conspiracy theory but fact. Some residents can get special favors or have "database accidents" happen to people they don't agree with. Several residents have been affected, silenced, banned, harassed, threatened in SL and in RL from these people. They aren't your friends. You think I'd just throw away the years I've spent in SL, the things I've created, the friendships I've made just to throw it all away on some kind of delision?

LL is corrupt and so are the members of the FIC, whether they realize it or not.

That sounds terrific. How do I join?

Be a content creator. I think that's pretty much the only thing that makes you part of the FIC.

The FIC is soooooo 2004. The REAL power now lies with the Star Chamber.

Not really, that's just a general description of the people in that "group". It's not an official group per se, but just a group of people that are close friends with SL employees and converse with them on a daily or frequent basis. You can't just join the FIC, you have to be let in and be friends with the Lindens.

You could no more be part of the inner circle of the Republican party and have access to high-level leaders by joining the Republican party, can you? No.

It's simply a group of people in SL who have Linden Lab's ear, can get them to violate the TOS for their own benefit, and influence how the world evolves in their own image.

You become FIC, you do not "join" it :)

Although it's an exclusive group — other FICs will not let you into the Inner Core, even if you "speak with Lindens" :-D

Also, talking to Lindens by disagreeing with their vision will get their attention as well, sometimes even more than by agreeing with them :) (yes, despite the evidence in contrary, LL is quite open-minded) Of course, you'll be shunned by the rest of the FIC in the process.

Like many secret societies, their members refuse to be considered part of it or to ackowledge their existence as a secret society :) Also, the Powers That Be (ie. the Lindens) consider the FIC "an interesting myth" — proved by the fact that anti-FIC and non-FIC members routinely engage in discussions, conversations, and arguments with LL on almost all issues, and LL rarely refuses to lend them an ear.

Anyway, just to be clear about it, I don't agree with the (non-existing?) FIC's "vision" for Second Life, and although I certainly agree with many interesting ideas and developments by LL, I strongly oppose many of their attempts at discreet social guidance (the word "manipulation" is too strong!) and would rather prefer a more neutral stance. Still, also despite opinions to the contrary, most Lindens are human beings with their own opinions and ideas on what a virtual world is supposed to be, and how it is supposed to be used for. It's not always easy to remain "neutral" about your own opinions, values, and choices. Naturally, those unconditionally sharing these opinions, values & choices with Linden Lab, will always be seen as being "near" to them. In a sense, FICness is a philosophical ideology, meaning mostly "aligned with LL's opinions", and being perceived as "wielding power" because what a FIC member tends to say will come true sooner or later.

In a sense, it's much less about "politics" but "religion". If you're a Priest of Linden, you're near to Divinity, and when your predictions come true (just because you're aligned with their way of thinking), you're recognized as a Prophet. Many would say this is where the FIC's "power" comes from — not from direct communication with the Divine Beings and manipulating them to do what you wish (ie. performing miracles :) ), but by correctly interpreting the wishes and desires of the Divine Beings and foreseeing what they will do in the future, which will "happen" to be what the Prophet is announcing. For an outsider, it's easy to miss the subtleties of both approaches — "wielding power over the Lindens" or "antecipating the Lindens' wishes" seem, to the masses, to be the same thing :) This is the very stuff of religion ;)

All Hail the Linden Gods and Their Lawful Prophets, the FIC? :-D

But alas, we don't have a "SL Philosophy & Religion" forum group yet, and I'll shut up before the moderator catches up with me for posting on the wrong forum group! :)

*hides*

That's enough conspiracy theories for today :) *shuts down sarcasm mode for the moment*

- Gwyn

No, FIC is not a philosophical idealogy. It's a group of thugs in SL that works closely with LL to...

1. Get and give early info on developments in the SL world.
2. Announce and test entrance into the live grid when the world is down for upgrade/griefing
3. To bounce ideas around about how to ban/abuse certain real SL accounts inworld
4. To answer questions about subsystems of the SL world that may affect the various FIC ventures (can't name them because it's against TOS, but you know who/what they are as I've said them before)
etc.

This group can also keep others away from speaking in this "protected circle" (aka the #secondlife IRC chat room) using their own rules. LL can speak there to they people they deem "FIC" and don't have to deal with the riff-raff of the SL world (as the FIC considers some people). But, LL can't ban people because they don't like them, so they hang out in a "protected circle" room and let the thugs do the dirty work.

Here is an analogy: Camp Gitmo in Cuba and outher "outside-the-USA" camps. The USA can't torture people or hold people without being subjected to the USA constitution. But outside of the USA, we can jump through this "legal loophole" and get away with anything.

I'm kinda new... so I could be wrong
but this sounds a tad paranoid and bitter...