Sad Story

*Sigh* stereotyping here in a pretty rude fashion especially the SF Hippie/liberal mob. The name is offensive to people of jewish persuasion quite abundantly. While it may not be the same in europe it is an anti-semetic name in the U.S. Your own rules make it so this actually was warranted they contradict themselves in fact. You state LL should know other meanings of the word and allow it based on that? How about the guy knowing that its actually an anti-semetic group in the U.S and realizing hey this name may hurt someone?

The fact is he didnt did he? And they had every right to ask him to change his name even if it wasnt asked but forced upon the person. This isnt just a cut and dry case of the Linden's making up policy because the policy was already there If you would bother reading the ToS sometime Doc. Check other online games policy as well international or otherwise. They all stipulate that and most people know better then to name themselves a name which people on a broad range can take offense to.

The rules are told to you by the way you just probably didnt bother reading them and just hit that you accept. The point is that your own argument goes against itself. Mabye instead of saying LL should know what international meanings of words are you should look at the guy trying to know that its actually a hurtful name to alot of people. Consider this that name is offensive to about 6,155,000+ people in the U.S thats just counting the jewish population, then you got african americans and alot of people that arnt caucasian that would also take offense to it. So those people that take offense to the name are just supposed to accept it because the person is from a different culture???

A group that is considered hurtful and detremental emotionally to alot of people is not really something you name yourself. One should know better.

Meh. I don't like this at all. It feels wrong.

Does anybody know what name The SLer Formerly Known As Skinhead Mission is going under? I'd dearly love to hear what he has to say, seeing as how he's the only one that can/will speak of the details.

So does this mean that walking around in SL wearing Kalik's cruicified skinhead t-shirt is a ban-able offence? Or will a Linden just tell me I have to take it off? What if I started a group called "Skinheads", and that was my visible group title?

It's all a bit of (virtual) art imitating life. Sucks just as bad in SL as it does/did in RL...

-S

I agree with you the rules should be more clear. By "equitable," I meant they didn't throw him out and take all his stuff after all. They asked him to change his name, and he did.

I also strongly support LL in not allowing ethnic- or racially-abusive names. They could be more clear about which those are, of course.

coco

ok, so there was more to the story and the guy is back in game. thanx for replying, robin.

*unbunches knickers and skips away*

There's one big issue that's been overlooked in all this. We *know* LL have a database of banned names (you can't call yourself Linden anything for example, and John Steinbeck was unavailable when Steinbeck was an available surname).

So they want to make some rules about names we can use - I say add them to the ban list. Maybe, just maybe it's worth making the ban list work a little differently so that there are banned word lists that refer things on to a human for checking so killikrain (contains kill, could be inciting hatred) would get OKed whilst killallenglishmen wouldn't. (Sorry Sel, it's one I could think of quickly without getting me outright banned.)

If Skinhead is deemed to be an offensive name - add it to the ban list. The person could never have registered it and we wouldn't be having all this drama.

We don't know what's going on inside LL. The trouble is that it comes over as LL being very high-handed. Generally I approve of issues being kept private. I'm starting to wonder more and more. I don't know the guy at all. Say he said "F*** off, <insert racist slur>" to someone. Clearly a TOS violation. Permabanning for a first offence seems harsh looking at some of the other sentences we see, but it isn't an unreasonable response in and of itself. A statement to the effect that Skinhead wasn't banned simply because of his name, but because of another abuse or series of abuses that were investigated would have saved a lot of bad blood towards LL. It's too late this time, but it's worth considering in future.

I didn't paraphrase a damn thing. I quoted you verbatim. Neither did I cut any part of your statement from the whole -- I quoted your entire post. I have read the entire thread and am aware of the context in which you placed your statements. I disagree with your sentiments, plain and simple.

This is an American company, staffed by Americans, who have a certain view of the world. I'm really sorry that skinheads have been so inaccurately portrayed in this country but that's hardly LL's fault. They were not intentionally trying to belittle anyone. Furthermore if they are belittling anyone it would be those peaceful non-nazi like skinheads and not the entire international community. Lets not be ridiculous or blow this out of proportion.

Do you really think so little of LL that they would, without thinking twice, just yank someone's account like that and then, on numerous received complaints, just decide to ignore it? Do you think Robin is a liar? If so, why are you here? Why would you stoop to associate with people and a company of whom you think so little? Why would you give them your money?

Apart from all that, the actions you ascribe to LL are completely illogical. Why would they want to anger their customers so? A more logical explanation is either that someone in customer service acted too rashly and the matter has been rectified or that the person in question did something to bring attention to himself and there is more to this story than meets the eye.

Either way, saying that LL 'belittled the entire international community' is patently ridiculous. I'll be the first in line to say that the TOS is applied unfairly, that favoritism is given to some folks, that bugs aren't fixed before new features are put in.. there's lots of reasons to rag on LL -- as well as lots of reasons to applaud them. But come on, we really don't need to make up stuff.

While I find the allusion that skinhead is a racist term a bit off, I'm glad that Skinhead Mission hasn't been barred over a cultural misunterstanding.
Thanks for responding Robin.

But let me say this: Skinhead came to our attention for valid reasons and was asked to change his name, and did.

I would like to know the "valid reasons" becourse there are none. I hope skinhead givs you his agreement to publish the reasons.

Hello all - I am Skinhead Mission

and at first - sorry, my english is very simple, languages are not the best I can. I read this all very carefully, and I am happy about it - in the last week I tryed so much way to get in contact with linden, tryed to figured what goes wrong. But all what they let me know was, 'your name is intolerant nature' and 'change it' - no response about my questions. Ah, and I was banned from one to other second - no chance to get in contact with my friend, my merchants in the mall - nothing. Also the forum here was closed for me.



Very interesting - feel free to write whats the 'valid reasons' are - I dont do anything wrong - I felt in the past as a creativ and productiv member. I was all times open mind to help wherever its needed. Tell me the reasens please (I asked via email - no response) so if there some - let us all know. The reality is - that LL wasn't really interested about my SL vita.

The hole situation is very frustrated for me. Why no one of the SL stuff can send a friendly IM or email and ask me to change the name? Why no one Linden told me in the past, that there is a problem with my name? I post here at the Land Manangement Forum for weeks - I had many contacts with Linden in-world and via live-help - all without any problem.

I dont understand this all. I thought about to go off of the game - and still cant believe what happens. Now I decide to change the name and hope this was a 'one time action' from LL - but I have a bitter taste.

Ah - and there is something more - the order was so: I was setup the new apez vends at my land. The screen goes to grey - in the middle' you was logout from an admin - you can see IM for more information' but there was no IM... I ask a friend to contact Live help and asked whats happend. He has Adam Linden at the other and. AL told my friend - he cant give information about other accounts. Than AL ask for my name and told my friend I will get an email. - I got the email with the content I told above. Its not so how Robin Linden told, that they got in contact with me and after this they closed my account.

Well, pretty good for a non-academic German citizen. I bet his English is much better than your German!

Glad to see you're back Skinhead!

LL's snap decision without consultation was really unfair. It could happen to any of us it seems. I know Skinhead personally and he's once of the nicer guys I know in-world.
I understand your bitter taste, but hopefully it is behind you now after a couple weeks.

Seeya in-world!

Just a few thoughts - not intended to be specific to this but just general things I wonder about:
What trumps what when you have a style/word that is benign in one part of the world but sends up red flags in another? It could be that slower action might be needed so there is an investigation, yet LL was roundly condemned for being slow to act in other cases (I'm thinking of the racist-looking avatar that a griefer wore until he was banned for a global attack). The very word itself might be scary to someone from certain areas. So what would be best - or is it just impossible for this kind of thing to be handled correctly all the time?

Welcome back, Skinhead! Glad to hear that you're back although under a new name.

And now that I've heard the story straight from you, that is really disappointing about how LL handled the situation. But at least you're unbanned now and hopefully won't have anymore problems.

We can't know why this person was banned, I sincerely hope that it's not based on the name alone.

That being said, I am seriously amazed, disgusted, and generally dissapointed at some of the ignorant posts that have been made in this and related threads. A rl friend of a friend of mine is a skinhead, and you know what? Yeh, he has black skin! woh, imagine that?!?!? I bet that must be seriously fucking confusing for some of the people posting in these threads lol.

Glad to know you're back brother, and that you've jumped in on this whole mess to give your story. Knowing what happened makes it an even worse screwup on the part of Linden Labs.

-S

Now we've heard the other side of the story, and I don't think there was any conclusion-jumping at all.



It seems to me that by forcing this name change you are, in fact, defaming a whole group of people in the real world. You're a) tarring all of us (skinheads, that is) with the same 'racist' brush; b) perpetuating the media-created stereotype that all skinheads are neo-nazis/racist/white supremicists and c) taking action against a person that was well-established in SL, and known to Lindens, based upon his being (I assume) AR'ed by somebody.

Deeply disappointing on all counts.

-S

Get used to it. In America the general perception of the majority of the population (yes, thanks to the media) is that Skinheads are racist. That fact alone justifies forcing a name change, in order to prevent those who have that perception from being offended. It is also a good idea for the user of the name to change it to protect HIM from becoming a target of our friendly neighborhood griefers.

Sorry? Jews are offended by my refering to a SF based company (SF) who's CEO publicly declares the employes send each other 'love' over the office LAN (Hippie) and who's VP in charge of community has just publicly IN THIS THREAD aligned both herself and the company with the ultra left (liberals)?

That offends Jews?

'the SF Hippie/liberal mob' is nothing more than a shorthand statement of fact, as anyone at all familiar with SL/LL will know perfectly well! In no way can it possibly offend the Jewish Community.

Either you are completely unable to express yourself coherently or have lost the plot.

If you mean the word 'Skinhead' offends 'Jews', sorry, I somehow doubt that too.
Yes, maybe a tiny minority of Skinhead lookalikes are extreme right wing/neo-nazi thugs who delight in expressing anti-jewish sentiment.
But the vast majority aren't.
Any Jews who are professing offence at the term Skinhead, as opposed to the actions of a minority of skinheads are frankly, oversensitive and/or attentionseeking, or have been misled by liberal media propaganda.
It's actually quite funny, I have met Jewish Skins! Jews who like the music, the 'look' and the lack of discrimination...

It's a bastard when your selected victims don't play the game isn't it?

Not only that - one thing that impressed me, and impresses most people coming into SL is the LACK of discrimination within the community. In SL, far more than in RL, people are acceped as People, not judged by their 'wrapping'.

People who can't do this are the REAL discriminators, among whom we now have to count the staff of LL. Pursuing their utopian dream they have now become what they profess to abhor... judgmental discriminators - what delicious irony!




Hmm, still on about offending over 6 million people... Plus all the other ethnic minorities? That makes the United States of America a pretty easily offended country then doesn't it? Because my experiences of it, from the NE and NW borders, right the way down to Pasadena in California indicate that the US consists of very little BUT racial/ethnic minority groups - most of whom seemed to get along fairly well, all things considered.

Of course, from time to time the bleeding heart liberals do try and stir up trouble by harping on about largly imaginary 'problems' and this or that group being 'offended'.
But the reality is a bit different isn't it? Otherwise you wouldn't even have a United States of America!


On the subject of the TOS:

THE TOS HAS NO MEANING. It is a completely unenforcable document until tested by a legal challenge. Most of it would be instantly dismissed as being either unfair or unreasonable under laws passed to prevent companies attempting to impose excessively restrictive conditions on their customers. A basic principle of law is that unfair contracts are unenforcable.

All the TOS is is a one sided contract LL attempts to impose on it's customers. 99% of the time they get away with it, as do a lot of businesses. After all, to most users SL is just a game, and it's simply not worth the effort - however, with the money stakes rising all the time and RL business becoming involved it's only a matter of time before that changes - not to mention the possibility of an individual being plain bloody minded. The moment it's challanged everything changes...

Do try and remember, the TOS is NOT the law, even in SL. Any part of it may be overturned at any time by due process of law.

So quoting from it has absolutely no point.

Oh, and I have read it a few times, it's marvelously amorphous though and what I last read back in '05 probably is out of date - as if that mattered...

'All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing'

Well said Doc. I was trying to compose a reply myself, but the words escape me. I'm very disappointed

/leaves thread

I read the response to my question on Q&A and can't reply there.

The fact that skimi has now responded means we do have both sides to the story.

So apparently Skinhead is a racist term. Well thanks LL, I now know so much more than I did before.

What exactly does, small minded mean?

If you only want a minority american population to play this game, say so. If you want a global audience, get a broader vision.

Defamation is a banning offence. I suggest you ban yourselves lindens, as you seem to think that all SKinheads are racists, that is defamation.

Hypocritical junk. Someone in LL needs to take a good look in the mirror and look at themselves in RL. Racism is a step away from bigotism. Look closely LL you are that bigot.

Excellent.

I'm assuming then that you've banned such words as exxon, bush and bushwhacker, gaey, pink, PCU, champagne socialist and champagne liberal, tessellate, pro-life, revisionist, bedwetting conservative, apparatchik, banana republic, federast, heterophobia, manarchist, poverty pimp, conchy, randroid, SLQ, redneck, drum, and rhino.

And you've banned objects of symbolic reference, such as shirts colored brown, the Confederate flag and any American state flag reconstructed from it, any national flag associated with acts of genocide and imperialism (U.S., U.K., French, Italian, Russian, Chinese, Saudi Arabian, Indian, Pakastani, and over a hundred more), visual representations of elephants, jet airplanes, male and porcine penises, tigers, roses, AK-47 and M-16 assault rifles, land mines, "cannonball" type fuzed bombs, the World Trade Towers, The Kremlin, the U.S. Capitol, the Forbidden City, the Colliseum, the Pyramid of Kufu, or anything culturally or architecturally associated with such structures, and on and on and on....

SL is going to be a pretty empty and bland world when you get through - but it will be sanitized.

Point's pretty obvious. If you try to carry out your position with consistency, equality, and fairness on an international level, you will fail. Your position is only possible if your criteria is narrow and parochial (say, American pop-culture) - and by definition cannot be consistent, equal, or fair. You will not do better. You will fail.

With all due respect, think harder about this issue.

Apparently Skinhead is bad

But adults playing the game as children and haviing cybersex is fine.

Well good ol' LL.

I am glad I don't have the same so called 'liberal' views as LL