adding more prim capacity to land!

Reitsuki the truth speaks he.

I think that's what he is banking on

give it up greene

I don't want more land, I don't want to set shop in SL and make money, I just want to have a decent looking place on MY land!
I also don't want to pay monthly rental for some virtual land that i know i am never gonna use, I was decent enough (understanding the server capacity issue) in suggesting a prims market!

You pay for prims now, in land.

You think it's gonna get cheaper if your paying for the prims? It isn't.

There is a prims market, it is tied directly to land. It is how LL makes it's money and seems to be the most equitable way to charge for the usage of a sim's prim resources.

Don't underestimate the value of greenspace or pallazo surrounding your build. In RL closely spaced builds are convenient, in SL they can be irksome.

No, I'm not - if I were I would not be so naive as to have pointed it out in one of my posts, but I appreciate your efforts to keep me honest.

In what sense - aren't there some issues worthy of discussion without a rush to judgement?

What do you think is causing lag? How do you think things could be improved? Or do you feel change in general is a bad thing?

Charging for extra prims will not solve lag, at all. It will just cost people more money than what they're already sinking into the game.

This is not a worthy issue for discussion -- if you want to see the pros and cons of prim banking, look it up on the pre-1.2 forum thread (prior to december 2003).

LF

LD - with all due respect I'm not talking about charging for extra prims or prim banking...

I understand that things in the past were not preferable for residents who experienced those times, and I am not proposing any kind of throw-back. Please try on a different pair of glasses when you read my posts, or at least lets all agree to be less judgemental.

A pricing mechanism for computing resources can be a secondary market; that is, between residents directly and not LL. It would offer several advantages that would enhance the present system, not replace or destroy it.

Shaun and Cyberland are creating additional liquidity through aggregation, I'm suggesting there may be additional liquidity at lower levels too - and that larger benefits to the community may accrue as well.

Please forgive me if I am newer than you, but lets figure out how to play together going forward shall we?

One thing that gets forgotten about the 'purchasing of prims' idea - and yeah, it has been suggested before.

Let's say someone (a) has 5000 prims allocated on their land. Someone else, a larger land owner (b), has 10,000 allocated. Lets say the larger plot wants to 'buy' another 2500 prims on the 'prim market'.

So now we have 17500 prims in one sim --- above the hard limit that Linden set, based on performance testing and asset allocation strategies.

So what would happen? If (b) bought the extra 2500, would (a)'s allotment go down by 2500?

Honestly, this is sort of 'the way it used to be'. I remember very clearly, 10,000 prims per sim, and one guy who had all the money could make a 7500 prim dining room. Yes, he had the cash to do so at L$10 per prim; hurrah for the free market. But every prim he 'bought' (paid to rez) removed our ability to do so --- even though we owned more land than he did.

So, I suppose, if you have enough money, you could disable an entire sim with your table and chairs. Make all of the other land worthless, because no prims could be rezzed on it.

So no, I don't think we'll ever, ever see a prim market.

One thing that gets forgotten about the 'purchasing of prims' idea - and yeah, it has been suggested before.

Let's say someone (a) has 5000 prims allocated on their land. Someone else, a larger land owner (b), has 10,000 allocated. Lets say the larger plot wants to 'buy' another 2500 prims on the 'prim market'.

So now we have 17500 prims in one sim --- above the hard limit that Linden set, based on performance testing and asset allocation strategies.

So what would happen? If (b) bought the extra 2500, would (a)'s allotment go down by 2500?

Honestly, this is sort of 'the way it used to be'. I remember very clearly, 10,000 prims per sim, and one guy who had all the money could make a 7500 prim dining room. Yes, he had the cash to do so at L$10 per prim; hurrah for the free market. But every prim he 'bought' (paid to rez) removed our ability to do so --- even though we owned more land than he did.

So, I suppose, if you have enough money, you could disable an entire sim with your table and chairs. Make all of the other land worthless, because no prims could be rezzed on it.

So no, I don't think we'll ever, ever see a prim market.


Moreover, what would happen to current builds? Would they suddenly have to pay a prim maintenance fee which would fluctuate with the market, along with a land useage fee? Could I find my 300 prim building costing me $5 one month and $50 the next, depending on the activities of the prim trade?

You own the prims that someone else purchases!

You can choose whether to sell your prims or not. Some might choose price over principle, others (such as yourself) may choose principle over price - but in a secondary market you choose, NOT LL.

You could sell them, you could lease them for a specific period of time, you could lend them for free, or you could choose to hold them for yourself. We're talking about allowing prims to trade between RESIDENTS after an initial allotment based on the present land purchase metaphor.

If you needed more prims within your existing sim and no land with prims was available for purchase, or price to high, or noone would sell/lease/lend prims to you or the price was too high - THEN you could choose to sell out and move to a different sim with different conditions.

The key is that Land Barons and/or Prim Barons pay the same price for land and/or prims that you do at lower volumes - they no longer create artificial spreads based on volume.

Does that make more sense?

No.

What happens when I want my prims back? What happens when a "lease" expires -- what happens to the extra prims that someone is buying? insta-delete?

Is that too tough? You've paid tier for the time that they are loaned or leased and at the end of the term you get them back. Wow, but not continuing revenue stream just your own personal use of the prims you already owned and commanded through your land purchase. No extra charges, no loss of life, and no hassles.

And if you bought the prim capacity for less than you can lease it based on current prim prices then you make money for the term of the lease, just like the most accomplished land baron.

In fact, this might operate as a better basis for creator cooperatives than groups presently do.

And if you don't want them back you could sell them at the going rate, equal to what the largest landholder or primholder would get. Or not, its your choice. Its basically like a sublet.

What if I sell the land the prims are tied to? What if I quit? What if it's group land? What if I want my prims back NOW, as opposed to 3 months from now? What if the person doesn't pay mid-lease?

And you still didn't explain what happens to THEIR buildings when the "lease" is done; do they all just go poof?

Brilliant, another thing to worry about in the mEtaverse.

LF

I think two little things are being overlooked:

The lindens setup the infastructure this way, and changing it would:

1. Confuse/anger/upset 90% of SL users.
2. Mean tons of manhours implimenting.


I'm not saying you should not debate it, but the truth is that it's not going to happen. Debate it in that light.


Carry on.

Yes.. you're missing something, Hiro.
I haven't read the whole thread so I'm sorry if this
has already been answered... but...

What you are missing is the idea that LL could attach
a new/different type of computer/CPU to the grid
that does NOT manage land as most do now.

Instead it's entire CPU capacity would be dedicated
to rez/render/manipulate/etc the "extra" prims that
people buy.

If I own 512m2 of land right now I get 117 prims.. which
is a fraction of that servers power, and that is what I'm
paying for. But with the new idea LL could also rent out
a fraction of this new server. I could pay an extra US$10/mo
to get access to 117 more prims (controlled by the new server)
without having to buy "land".

Gabrielle

You're missing the point.

What if you could pay $10/mo for each additional 117
prims you want... these would be managed by a DIFFERENT
server/CPU than the one that manages your land.

How can you have "prim barons" if an individual
can just rent their extra server resources (prim usage)
directly from LL ?

Gabrielle

Or instead of LL redesigning the entire infrastructure, you can just buy an additional 512 meters, pay $5 per month more, and get the extra 117 prims.

I must be missing the reasoning behind all of this.

Wrong.

If someone starts paying an additional $10/mo for the
usage/handling of an extra 117 prims that are controlled
by a DIFFERENT server, then the person does end up
getting the more prims they want, without any more lag
to the server managing the land itself.

ALSO... If LL were to change the way land/prims were
managed so that the CPU resources that someone rents
(the $10/mo per 117 prims) were set up in a way that
Joe Avatar's 15,000 prims are handled by his $200/mo
server usage rent.... managed by HIS OWN SERVER
(not tied to any land)... and Jane Avatar's 117 prims
were handled by a fraction of another CPU (along with
other people renting cpu usage on that server) for her
$10/mo charge ... then neither player would be lagged
by the others, the land owner could have 100 people on
their land without lag, because each person's prims would
be managed by different servers.

I'm really surprised to see how closed minded some people
are about this!

Gabrielle

so, would this double the number of servers LL maintains? And what kind of performance would you expect between the prim server and the land server?

I'm fairly new... so I wont say I know everything about how
land/prims work... but.. are you saying that if I buy an extra
512m2 in some other sim somewhere else I can use the extra
117 prims on the land I REALLY want to put them on? -- not
in the same sim? .. I don't think that's possible right now because
land/prims/cpu are all tied together.

What if I own 4096m2 in some sim which is all the land I need.
I'm surrounded by other people who do not want to sell. Why
should I not be allowed to spend my extra $5/mo for an extra
117 prims without needing land? -- what if I could just rent
the extra cpu usage from a different/seperate server?

Gabrielle

Gabrielle: Putting prims on a server other than the sim that they are located in is a technical nightmare. Period. Any suggestions may as well be tailored to one-sim-one-server, because this will not change unless LL gets many more developers. And sinks far more money into server interconnects. And writes their own physics engine. I do research in distributed systems, and there is no way on earth I would want to get sucked into a mess like distributing prims from one sim across a bunch of random servers.

Even without the technical problems, what happens when your neighbor decides to build a huge, complex, scripted high-prim environment? Oh, sorry, your lag just went through the roof, your framerate buried, and there is nothing you can do about it. I'm sure he will be willing to buy your land for a rock-bottom price.

The *only* change I can see happening in the near future is specific sims being created with higher prim limits, and being assigned to faster servers. Then you know what you are buying into, and it will never change.