Haha, locked

There you go again denegrating me. I have responded directly to your points (well, what points there were) in both your previous posts, so what on earth makes you think that I'll ignore a full reply - that's actually what I've been trying to get you to do!

Personally I would like no moderation, but as I've said several times before, understanding that Linden Lab wants moderation and has expressed increasing numbers of rules regarding what can be posted and where, those rules are pointless unless they're actually going to implement them more fully.

I've also said before on another thread that moderation of a busy forum is never going to be perfect, but they're not even scratching the surface here in implementing their own moderation rules. I haven't made the rules, they have. I don't have a say in how much time they put to it, they do. Having lots and lots of rules and little time concentrated on implementing them is ridiculous - it's rules for rules sake. Why don't they boil it down to a set of core rules that they can implement with come consistency, rules that actually matter such as illegal, threatening or obscene language for instance. It will make their job easier and less spread out, giving them greater consistency with the funding they're willing to throw at forum moderation. To spend the time posting on a thread about Adam and Nexus saying that this isn't the place to do that is odd, but if they're going to do that then I'd like to know why they haven't posted similar remarks on all the other threads of the same ilk - it's an understandable question and just highlights how they're thinking incorrectly about moderation.

Finally, why so much use of the word silly in your reply to me? Your point is very valid without terming me "silly" constantly for having my own view point. If you want to engage in a conversation about moderation do so without constantly trying to put the other person down and boil their arguments down to a throw away comment such as silly.

/140/8e/35175/1.html
This is a happy birthday thread. They have always and consistantly in General.
I've asked for there to be a Birthday / Personal announcement forum as a feature suggestion, and more than 75% of respondants agreed it was a good suggesion. You can look it up... you can voice your support for it there.

/120/48/35174/1.html
Public appreciate of a person's builds. Perhaps it belonged in building? Regardless, this kind of thread haas always and consistantly been in General.

/140/23/34859/1.html
another birthday thread.

/140/74/35014/1.html
another birthday thread

/120/be/35048/1.html
Fel's 1-year Phantasi Isle celebration announcement. I agree, this should have been in Events. As per previous comments, Lindens can't catch them all. Ironically, you complain about it, and yet you were the first to respond. If you felt it was misfiled, you could have hit the "!" in the red triangle and suggested it be moved to Events. So obviously if you missed it, so could have Jeska.

/140/5d/35054/1.html
GOM hits $1mil traded. I think this is definitely of general interest. Arguably it could go in the Land and Economy forum, though I would argue that it's the most successful in-SL business and therefore is more of a general nature. At best, an iffy example.


the Adam and Nexus post was specifically phrased TO them, not ABOUT them. I find no similarity between the nature of their thread and your examples... could you explain how that's somehow contradictory?



/120/38/35367/1.html (land and the Economy)
GOM defrauded... has nothing to do with land or and only indirectly the economy. I think a lot of people see that as General interest.

/53/16/35250/1.html (Gallery)
I agree. I'll ask this to be moved. No biggie.

/120/82/35222/1.html (Fansites)
Cybin announces a new site available. While he should post another thread in Fansites for the permanent listing of the site, this I believe is a valid general announcet.

/120/f1/35279/1.html (Feature Suggestions)
Ulrika had a poll about somethingorother. I agree. Feature suggestions get made in general all the time.

/120/58/35203/1.html (land and the Economy)
blaze's post about libel. No, this more directly relates to player rights than it does with the economy. Though, blaze does post a LOT, lol.

/120/db/33303/1.html (Services, Fansites, Special Events, Land and the Economy, take your pick)
I pick General - a public apology about a widely used site is very appropriate in general forum. In fact, Apo and Merwan have been good about posting stuff about the site in services / fansite / etc.

/120/d0/34931/1.html (Services or Shopping)
My thread poll of whether to open source my vendors. General. It's not shopping because it's not something for sale. It's not services because I'm not selling or offering a service.
At best, I'm inquiring WHETHER to provide the service. General is appropriate.

/invalid_link.html (Special events)
Agree. This should have been in events. Got few responses and probably got buried before anyone noticed it.


Well, your examples have mostly been contradicted, and even if not, I see no huge contradiction like that which you have asserted exists. Again, there's only so much one moderator can read and do... if it's really a concern of yours, start flagging threads and asking they be moved. That's what I've been doing.


It's called being reasonable. Some people don't realize they're posting in the wrong forum, so telling them will remind them. Some people just do it blatantly - like posting advertisements as spam - and they deserve to be told not to post there. But, it doesn't mean that I have to have some expectation that everything be absolutely perfect. That's going overboard.

It's like the difference between brushing excess hair off your cat or dog to keep them looking well groomed, and meticulously plucking every loose hair with tweezers. Don't try and hold me to an excluded middle standard - there's more than just one extreme or the other, and maybe that's the overall picture you seem to be missing.


Please, then why don't you hire another Linden for at least 30k a year to droll through every single post in an ever increasing populated forum. That's just asinine.


It's called guidelines. LL has asked us to post int he right forum. So you're essentially saying they need to read every post and hold our hand and baby us.

OR

We could, as adults, learn to post in the right forum, and make a reasonable effort to help them out. Gee, what a thought.

For instance, let's say you owned a restaurant. You have customers smoking in the non-smoking section. You have people being loud and disruptive. You have people with bad manners. Are you going to kick them out? No, unless there's a really big problem. But, it doesn't mean it's unreasonable to expect people to act in social norms:
- If there's sections labeled for a purpose, like smoking/non-smoking, follow the sign
- If you're at a restaurant, have good manners.
- If you're at a restaurant, don't talk so loud that the people around you can't think.

You seem to argue that rules have to be these concrete things... like, BAM in stone or whatever, law of the land, death penalty for violation... it's a symptom of an western society that more and more can't make personal, reasonable, responsible judgement about their own actions and how they act in public.

So yes, in perspective, you are screaming bloody murder. Drop it dude, the forums are way better moderated than a month ago, and you're COMPLAINING.

OK Hiro, here goes.

1. You've taken my reasons for posting the first list that they should move them, when I stated I was listing those upon the same basis as Adam and Nexus' thread was posted on, and wondered why they had not been posted upon. Your disagreements over them are based on semantics, which highlights better than I could do, why the rules Linden Lab seem to be wanting to include aren't a good use of moderating resources. As I said to Moeculor, Happy Birthday threads are to and not generally about the person, which is why they fit in with the Adam and Nexus thread - I see no difference here, other than they seem to fall into a false loop hole created by the ridiculous rules, if people wish to judge them differently.



I notice that you take issue with me because I have posted on some of those threads I have reported. My reporting them is simply to highlight their inconsistencies with their rules, the fact that I participate in them here should speak volumes of what I actually think. But this isn't about what I think, it's about what Linden Lab's forum moderators think and how they fail to even make more than a fleeting 5 minute stop at moderating the forums to their own standards.

2. My listed threads here you have appraised on the same basis I was (unlike those for point 1). Although you agree on some, you disagree on others, and I'm sure several other people will also disagree with both of us on where they should be. And again, that highlights why creating such arbitrary rules is wrong. I have to say that Linden Lab made this problem ten times worse, in my opinion, by splitting the forums up into so many, narrow topics - it kind of leaves everybody guessing where threads should be - I see that all the time.

I do notice that you're advocating quite a lot of cross-posting, which is normally something frowned upon on forums.



As I've already said several times on this thread, I have been flagging threads. I've also said I feel pedantic, and I'll add petty to that appraisal of myself. But hopefully in doing that it will help show that the rules they have are petty in the first place. I've never expected the moderators on this forum to be perfect, again something I've said several times, but maybe they're concentrating on the wrong aspects of moderation in their quest for the forums to have "open dialogue". I am not missing the "excluded middle standard" as you call it, but unfortuantely the middle standard is currently what we have that leads to such inconsistencies that cause us to argue over the semantics in the contents of posts as to what should be done with them.



That isn't my job, or my responsibility to do. It's Linden Lab's job to ensure that if they create rule upon rule that they have adequate resources to implement those. Like I said in response to Pirate, maybe they should boil down their forum moderation rules to enable them to better concentrate on keeping those rules that really matter under control, rather than create rules that leave their moderation so wide spread and ineffective at actually implementing them as to be pointless.



No, what I'm saying is that the rules should be less fluffy, more concentrated on what actually need to be moderated. Why are Happy Brithday threads excluded from the same actions of moderation as other threads that name names and are to people and not about them? What's the reasoning behind that. I take full responsibility for my own actions. Sometimes I may get things wrong, but I do so in the knowledge that I am responsible for those wrong-doings.



I'm confortable with you saying that I'm complaining. They may post guidelines, but they then randomly implement them by posting, locking or moving threads when those guidlines are crossed - at which point they become rules, but rules that are poorly implemented. Very few people stick to guidelines, as we all know, unless they're actually acted upon. And yes, there are those who post incorrectly because they don't have a clue where, in the myriad or narrowly-defined boards, they should post. It's confusing for both us and, it would seem, the moderators.

I'm not after moderator utopia here, that's never going to happen on any forum. But maybe, just maybe, they should consider defining a smaller set of less pedantic rules and implementing them more fully. Concentrate on the big things that bring the level of the forums down, not the little things.

Moopf, lemme simplify this for you:

If you think something should be moved, report it.

If the Lindens DISAGREE, they won't move it. If the thread isn't moved, it means they disagree. Ok?

I can easily guarantee you that every reported post DOES get looked at, as about 3/4ths of the ones I report end up with -some- action taken, and the other 1/4th are easily seen as borderline cases.

The Report tool is not your tool to move things. It's your tool to bring attention to the thread so that a Linden can make a decision about it. Other than that, the Lindens rarely, if ever, read threads, unless the topic seems to reference a player having difficulties or a genuine question (like First Land Eligibility). Since the Lindens rarely read threads, assume they will not see a problematic thread unless you bring it to their attention.

I believe Lindens do their best trying moderate the forums and enforce TOS. That with thousands of threads they can not always be consistent, especially with several Lindens sharing moderation while doing other work, should not be surprise. Please give Jeska one break, she is one of nicest Lindens around and always trying hard do her work well.

OK people, I see that the level of support I'm getting on this is little to non. It appears people are happy with the moderation that takes place, how it is metered out and what the effects of that are.

I don't wish to go against the grain any further as it's becoming obvious that I'm beating a dead horse and there isn't support from others in the community for it, so I'll just zip it now. I've explained my view points many times over the last 24 hours or so, so they're there for everybody to see, rehashing those ad-infinitum will just get on everybody's nerves I guess.

If my explanations and reasons help in any way, great, if they don't then great as well. Any further posts from me would just be re-stating what I've already stated several times over, and that seems a little pointless.

Jebus Linden, Hiro!
I do believe you have broken the record for longest post evar!

This is pretty much where we differ, Moopf.

Nah, I'm sure it is still held by Ulrika quoting Anshe, or vice versa *KIDDING*

Wow Hiro, talk about taking a comment out of context to suit your own ends. Notice what the comment was in relation to - you telling me to pay 30k a year to employ a forum mod - which is clearly quoted above the comment of mine you've quoted. So you're saying it is my responsibility to pay 30K a year to employ somebody at Linden Lab to moderate the forum?

Hiro has been kissing ass for some time. I think he/she would like to become a forum mod or just filled out an application to become a liason or something.

Rhetorical, Moopf.

Obviously it's not your responsibility.

Whatever, you don't get it. God forbid the overwhelming majority of people on the forum want one where they don't have to be sniped at, or where they can see threads before they disappear under pages and pages of off-topic posts a day. God forbid.

@CalvinRichard,

"For some time"? You've barely been in these forums and you've barely been in SL, and given your ratings of 18-21-10 you've barely talked to anyone in SL.

That should be the first indication to you about how obvious the issue is. I have not been here long and it is already that obvious and evident to me that you assume the role of a wanna-B forum moderator or you are trying to prove to the lindens you can do it because you filled out an application or something of the sort.

If you want to pick a fight with me, drop me an IM in game. I'm not going to degrade this into your name-calling on a public forum.

Hiro, I apologize I have seen another person share my same opinion about you to you before and I was under the assumption that you would not mind.

Fair enough.

I'll be clear with my agenda, then.

Forums with less personal attacks and less spam means that issues get discussed at greater length without distraction. I have and continue to voice my own concerns and personal suggestions to improve Second Life in ways I would like. Put the two together, and more of my suggestions are heard and considered.

You are playing two roles in this Mrs. Hiro, For you Call names,Point fingers, incite a heated discussion and contradict the very post you just made.
/120/a4/35377/1.html

I don't see any names or people I've pointed fingers at in that thread. The topic is broad and can mean any number of griefers. If you dispute this, please prove otherwise.

I ain't no Spring chicken, Calvin.

Im glad your not a spring chicken because you will need the wisdom to talk your way out of this one.

"Bravo to LL's recent trend of taking back the forum and taking action against the most obvious and chronic of our griefers. "

Is that not meaning only one single person? You are pointing fingers. Who was just suspended from the forums? Only one person recently. Vail your shaddy attempts with a little more thought please, you are not a spring chicken you should have this down packed by now.

You know, reading this again... you got a point. I meant it as plural - like
"the most obvious and chronic bunch of our griefers".

You're right, I wasn't clear. Let me change it before anyone else misreads it.

+1 points to you.

EDIT: Even still, there were griefers around before you were a heavy poster here that you missed... most regular posters in the forum could assume it was someone else. FYI

Thank you kindly Ma`am, If you are ever in world please send me a message I would like to invite you to my first land plot for a cup of earl grey with a sprig of mint.

I don't think it's perfect, but I do think Jeska does a pretty good job at something I sure as hell wouldn't want to have to do. It just seems like a silly thing to get bent out of shape about, to me anyway. I guess I'm just a "go with the flow" kind of person with a thick skin. Nothing connected to forum moderation or lack thereof has ever made me do anything but shrug.

You would be correct. I'm perfectly fine with this board. And if I happen to put something in the wrong spot and it doesn't get noticed and I do it again and it does get noticed and gets moved, I'll still be fine with this board.

You would also be correct that it does get on people's nerves. Not so much you, since you do have thoughtful reasons for feeling the way you do. They just get to you more than others. The problem is that some in your cheering section are habitual offenders skirting around the edges of acceptable conduct.

Those are the people that require moderation. These are also the people who scream the loudest when they feel they have been singled out. I've been on these types of bulletin boards for nearly 20 years now and they all have the same elements, the same moderation issues, and the same whiners. Again, I'm not lumping you in the whiner category but the ilk backing you up here makes the rest of shake our heads and be happy we have Jeska and the others.