Anti-Gay Attack on My Pickerel Land : (

Dang... miss a few days and this happens in my sim. I even got some IMs saying some of the signs were on my group's land. I was gald to see the Lindens took care of the signs though. Sorry I couldn't remove them quicker, I was (and am) out of town a lot.

I don't mind daz following this line of thinking because it is important to clash with received wisdom sometimes and on an occasion like this many people can get very self-righteous and insufferable, and some even violent, approximating the kind of hate that in fact engendered the original attack.

I think there is not question that numerous signs posted all over a large open lot of more than 16,000 m2, and also spilling on to a smaller neighbouring lot, is a statement that is not about art work. You don't come to a PG sim far from the telehub and any other gathering spaces to make an art statement.

Maybe a poster like that on your own property in a unit of one, maybe on a wall of an art museum where somebody is exploring some concept, you might make your case. But when they appear on my huge open quarter sim right in my face, when they annoy neighbours all of his land, I have to assume that the intent was to discourage, dismay, even intimidate. If I had seen this sign on another's land, I wouldn't have felt anything other than "what an intolerant asswipe, hope the Lindens ban the person for that". But when it comes to you on your land -- and this surprises even me -- you feel even violated and hurt. In fact I couldn't even gather my whits about me at first because it came as a blow. I once had a giant mafia sign appear on land I had purchased from a griefer, complete with the automatic rifles and the gun moll and the bling -- as if to say "We are watching". I've found all kinds of prims dumped on land before. But it is differnt when it seems to attack a perceptino of a person's being, and segment of the population -- I can only say it feels different. If you don't feel it is a big deal, you're welcome to feel that, it doesn't bother me. In fact, people who lead the charge on the gay rights issues and gay identity positions in the game had to say to me "well so what?" and "I've experienced worse than that." And indeed, they did, in RL, and in SL, and I don't quarrel with that.

It is just that you have to take swift action or else there is no free space for everyone. It's just that simple.

Making a big grease-pencil type OX over the rainbox flag, associated with the gay movement, is definitely a message: GET OUT. NO GAYS HERE.

SL cannot have that message.

There's no question in my mind that was the message. I can't possibly see that this is a gay person who finds the rainbox thing itself offensive. In fact, three of us there at the time of the attack, two property owners and one about to become one, all noted to each other that rainbows weren't our favourite thing precisely beause they are such a cliche and kinda kitschy at this point with Judy Garland and all the rest. But it is a symbol for which people have marched and fought for and been arrested and I respect that, and it has become universal, in many countries of the world. Since there was not a single building on this entire area of more than 18000 K except one little welcome house with a giant box and notecard about homesteading on it, I cannot agree that this crossed-out rainbox was somehow about anything other than saying to us, as owners or as potential owners and tenants: don't put anything "gay" here.

There was nothing "gay" on this empty lot. The "gay" comes possibly in one person's group memberships, or other random perceptions that people gather from the forums.

What troubled me most of all that this attack -- and there is no question that it was an attack -- was that it may have been directly in response to an innocent exchange about a women's center. I don't want to give this any more attention than it deserves, but it forms a possible motive. And there are other possible motives such as people angry about relationships gone wrong or full of the kind of road rage that people acquire in SL from all those sleepless night doing picky stupid work on prims and crashing all the time.

An attack like this is a kind of violation, again you personally, and against a group of people in the population who have a history of persecution and therefore require sensitivity to civil rights isuses. I appreciate all the people who have IM'd me with support, especially from those who hate my guts on the forums. They can go on hating my guts but at least they understand that on this and similar tolerance issues there must be a civilized common denominator.

The only thing you accomplish by freaking out on the forums like this, is to enforce the value in what the griefers do. They spent 3 minutes making a texture, drop a few in world, sit back and watch the 20 page threads unfold. You do nothing but make griefers know they got you. Big deal on those signs. Same as when I was a kid "sticks and stones". You can report abuse to Lindens and ignore it. Coming unglued is the best way to cause this to be more prevelent.

Wow. So, I started skimming after p. 5. I'm sorry to read that such a thing happened in an enviroment I'm just starting to enjoy. I'm very glad it's being dealt with and discussed so publically -- the message of tolerance is extremely refreshing. I read gripes about LL being "lax on griefers" and yet I see them posting here and admitting that they need to take a hard look at their policy. All this is quite a lot to digest at 1 a.m.

I'm new here, yes, just signed up a week ago with a trial "basic" subscription. I have been deeply enjoying the freedom of personal, respectful expression that I feel I'm allowed to in SL. The enjoyment is enough that I'd been thinking of plunking down a year "premium" membership. Now, I will wait and see.

If one of SL's basic tenets is tolerance, I think the management is beholden to a standard of no-tolerance when it comes to anything resembling a "hate crime." (Yes, there's a cliche in there somewhere.) I'm not a business manager or a Web host or anything of the kind, but permanent closure of accounts -- even if it carries a risk of shutting out honest folks who have the misfortune of sharing a computer or credit card with a jerk -- seems to me the only viable option in such a scenario. It sends a message and it keeps the server clean, and safer for the rest of us enjoying it.

I'd say that's my 2 cents, but it's really my $72 plus whatever I might spend for land eventually here... and perhaps further $72's down the road. Thanks, Prokovy, for posting about the issue and letting those of us just starting out know that these things happen. I will be watching this thread for further developments.

EDIT: P. S. if I missed any Linden comments that would apply to my post, just point me to the page number and I'll read...

I have been in SL for a few months more then a year now, and happily I have had remarkably few incidents of blatant discrimination, even while maintaining a public Lesbian Commmunity Center for almost my entire SL life. I *believe*, perhaps mistakenly, that Lesbians have a lower chance of being discriminated against simply because heterosexual males find Lesbians much less threatening then Gay Men. (All you have to do to figure this out is notice that practically ALL "straight" porn has at least ONE lesbian scene, but NEVER a gay boy scenes)
THANK GOD that this single incident has infact generated several 20 page threads about this issue. How encouraging, really, that so many people finally feel free enough to openly support tolerance and acceptance for persons of different sexualities when I can still remember in my own lifetime feeling completely restrained by society in expressing my sexuality openly.
Daz, you should be applauded for your ability to withstand a forum onslaught of backlash to hold firm to your question and get the answer you were searching for, and then understanding and taking that answer to heart.
I am a staunch supporter of EVERYONE'S right to free speech (even assholes ) However, DNA, you are wrong in that being the victim of any hate crime is no 'big deal'. Having withstood the 'sticks and stones' of bigotry my whole life, I can tell you that yes, it only takes 3 mins for some individual to throw a stone, however, are you suggesting (which I know you arent) that I simply endure the sticks and stones quietly? Especially when recovering from the damaged caused by those stick and stones can be so painful. What these 20 page threads accomplish mostly, at least in my 'I havent had enough coffee this morning yet' mind, is to reinforce the idea that MOST human beings do NOT accept bigotry or approve of the bullying of others. Bullys (...griefers, hate criminalist, is there any difference??) DEPEND on those they bully NOT fighting back and no one else being brave enough to stop thier actions. I, personally, am thankful that it's no longer societies knee-jerk reaction to look the other way. People coming unglued and responding with thier disapproval is the ONLY way to stop hate crimes.

its late i read this post full of ... sh**t

some in this forum should sweet on theyr door before asking for ultra mega golbal ban of IP, CCard and digital fingerprint.

Considering you killed a monster do not free you of your killer state...

these are just childish behaviors, stupid behaviors? probably

just let Linden lab handle things like they think they have to do, they ave no order to receive and know exactly what they are doing with theyr game.

/me is a Johnny-Come-Lately to this thread. I salute Pathfinder's willingness to man up and wrestle this tricky problem by the horns. At the same time, though, I can't help but echo the frustration at the 14-day ban and be a little embarassed that the punishment isn't more strident. If we were allowed to vote on possible official actions, mine would look something like this:

You get one screwup with a crime like this before you're OUT PERMANENTLY. Like Roberta, I think that folks can be redeemed / should not be hanged on the first offense. We've all made utterly stupid gaffes. Maybe not *hate crime* gaffes, but nobody is perfect. Thus, give not a slapped-wrist warning, but a 30 day suspension and a clear message on the first offense:

"you are being suspended for the period of one month starting today to demonstrate to you and the greater SL community that your action, [insert here], was absolutely, clearly, unequivocally unacceptable. Your next offense will result in a permanent cancellation of your account with no questions asked. Be advised that record of your unacceptable behavior and its concomitant punishment have been recorded in the SL police blotter to stand as example to the greater SL community. We hope you use the following month to reflect on how you might in the future refrain from being an asshat."

I also second the policy of banning alts, with the same punishment levied on the offending account. Yes, there exist significant technical hurdles to doing this with facility, but it is the only way to send a clear message. When I log on with any of my various alts, its still me playing and I could still be an utter hate-crime perpetrating monkey.

Will the banning of alts legitimately piss off innocent frineds of the offender who use the alts to log on? Yep. Seems like a good way to reinforce the message to the offender.

I wonder, though, if there's a risk of false-positive banning.

My $L0.02 ($US 0.000082 at current GOM prices)

At first I was gonna say, "Wow, that's a lot of big words! You think some of these jerks are gonna understand that?" and then I read your last sentence... well, nuffin's gonna get lost in translation with that... hahaha...

I feel a 14 day suspension for this kind of behavior or any hate-crime behavior is embarrassing for LL , and that the suspension should be at least 30 days. Then the person should be perma banned if they do not stop. This kind of thing insults and griefs the community as a whole. This needs to be stopped in its tracks, I wish Linden Labs would take a stronger stance against things like this or the outcry of the community will just get louder. Which it should if things do not change.

What you do is ban the particular account, and then if you have trouble from another account in that locale you block that one and all other accounts with the same distinct billing address. That doesn't stop a determined griefer, as they can use another card and switch to another ISP, but it sure makes it more of a challenge.

I see this as a deflection. The Lindens can cross reference accounts by card number, IP, etc. They seem to be playing dumb here. They told us we could have 5 accounts per card a while back. Somehow they are able to figure out who those 5 accounts belong to.

What is wrong with this picture?

It may be shit to you, but after 2 years of the same shit over and over folks tend to get tired of it.

do not pay interest to these acts they will stop by themselve

Best advice EVaR..

Shadow

Great Advice - Probably the same advice that people gave to Matthew Shepard and others like him who are now dead thanks to hate speech and crimes.

Idiots such as this person don't learn lessons easily. They don't have much in the way of logic or reasoning powers. Their view of the world is slanted through bitterness, hurt, hatred, self-loathing, ignorance and/or many insecurities.

They won't learn either, unless someone teaches them in a very straight forward way, that they can't go through life doing such acts and expect not to suffer the consequences.

Let's face it, if you attack someone that has done nothing to you or yours, then you have no one to blame for your punishment but yourself.

Now, it's up to LL to send a clear and severe message to such people. It's not only thier duty, as per thier own rules, but also thier social and moral obligation.

14 days is just not enough. A lifetime ban would teach a far more valuable lesson...

I have to disagree... The thing that makes these sorts of attacks prevalent is that the persons committing these attacks are not being held responsible for thier stupidity. Turning the other cheeks is a fine practice and is always my first response to blatant ignorance, however, when I run out of cheeks...

Bigotry is NOT something that will go away by ignoring it, or else the world would be free of it already. Childish behaviour (which is what bigotry is... an immature, frightened response to the diversity of the world) needs firm and sure correction. By ignoring it, society allows this sort of childish behaviour to continue, and by allowing it to continue it will only grow.

Nice way to belittle the mans death....there is no murder here or terrorist acts...Yes what the person did was reprehensible but lets try to keep perspective.


This has been a holiday weekend give the Lindens a chance to go through logs and do their dilligence before saying they haven't done anything.

In RL this can under most circumstances be powerful, yes.

But I think in an online environment, where anonymity and multiple identities are the norm and the potential consequences are minimal, inaction only encourages abuse. It's just so much easier to be a schmuck online. No amount of deterrent can prevent it entirely, but I do think powerful disincentives (e.g. banning of all accounts) can indeed be a deterrent.

I think everyone has missed Kyrah's point, meaning give the individual no reward for being an asshat. By posting threads noting notes and keeping it alive only serves to boost their ego.

So pay it no interest

but at the same time do everything in the power of the TOS to have them removed.

By doing so in the end you dont get in a pissing contest with them and they get to be removed for being an asshat. Simple logic nothng complicated about it and funny it works 9 times out of 10 if pursued properly.

Shadow.

Yes..giving them attention is just what many folks such as this seek. However, being quiet about it is really only effective if there are rules/laws/enforcement in place to take care of the problem. You don't want to ignore actions such as these if they are not punished in a very strict manner, because they will just continue and grow bigger and bolder if all they have to fear is a slap on the wrist.

Your reply speaks for me in this instance. Thanks.

David here we totaly agree.



Here is were we tend to disaggree to an extent.

My explination as to why?

#1 If you argue with them in world ...you have inflated their ego

#2 If you bring it to the Forums....you have inflated their ego.

#3 If you continue to do both you are not only inflating their ego you are elevating them to celebrity status.

Now you have a Griefer with a Celebrity status mentality that knows they have gotten your goat. So as you mention they will attempt something bolder to garner more attention from you thus escalating the situation further and it does continue to grow through this.

However, if this philosophy was put into place then the tools that LL has afforded us can be used more effectively.

#1 Don't argue with them be polight they hate that and if they continue to be asshats. Ban N Mute then report.

Phase 1 complete.

#2 Dont bring it to the forums do not give them the enlightenment that they have pissed you off in any manor. Doing so will infuriate them. At this point they have two options...do something bigger to get your attention or move on to next victim. However, by them opting for the first this would be a new subsequent report and show a developing pattern.

Phase 2 complete.

#3 Now you have 2 reports against them and if they continue they are going to cross the bounds to a point that will have them removed totaly.

Phase 3 complete and the individual reporting is not the victim but the one in control of the power and maturity level.

But my advice will never be followed because people think they can circumvent the system just as in RL like buying off a patrolman or something.
Use the sytem to your advantage instead of your disadvantage.
Patience is the most needed thing.
Getting into a pissing contest only demoralizes the victim and elevates the aggressor to a satus level that they think they cant be touched.
So simply put never let em get to big for their britches cut it off at the root and be done with it.

Anyway I digress,

Shadow

Shadow,

I respect what you are saying, but the pattern of not confronting this type of behavior head on, and tolerating it only causes it to escalate. It starts with a kid yelling out gay or racial slurs and getting away with it, because teachers look the other way or give them a slap on the wrist (especially with anti-gay comments). That just emboldens the person, who then moves onto pushing the kid they think is gay...then hitting them when they don't fight back. This moves on to coming after gays with a baseball bat, or a gun, or a knife, to teach them a lesson. This all escalates to a person being hung from a tree, tied to a cross, drug behind a pickup truck, whatever sick deaming thing they can come up with. The ostrich approach does not work. The only way to address this behavior is to rally against it and shine light upon it - silence is simply acquiescence and tacit approval.

This isn't real life and no one is being beaten, tied to a cross, and or drug behind a pick up truck. I respect where you are coming from but shining a light on this activity in SL will show them for what they are and hopefully get them banned....it won't stop anything from happening in the real world.