Anti-Gay Attack on My Pickerel Land : (

You are naive and a poor apologist.

are you saying that the anti-rainbow flags are hate speach? yes or no????

Thank you very much for the detailed information, Robin -- I look forward to the decision of the discussion.

I don't know about you, but I'm thinking the answer is a pretty obvious "yes."

I did not write "blah blah blah" so DON'T QUOTE ME AS IF I SAID IT.

ALL I AM ASKING IS THE FLAGS WITH THE O and / OVER THE RAINBOW FLAG, DOES THAT CONSTITUTE A HATE CRIME TO YOU?

what the hell do you think I'm being a naive and a poor apologist over? I asked if there was another part to the story I missed, but from the first and second posts it appears that there is a general consenus that the defaced flag was "hate speach" and a crime. and I dared to question that and now you are treating me like I'm a bigot which I am not.

Should we all just kiss up to you and boo hoo over this or try to figure out what hate speach is? what are the boundaries, if i didn't care i wouldn't have asked the question.

I think that was pretty clear to eveyone else. I also find it highly unlikely that it was an 'art installation' by a gay woman or man who is anti-gay flag.

Thank you for a thoughtful reply, Robin. However, what I bolded above is part of the problem. There is no commonality between griefing and hate speech. It is dangerous for our community as a whole to even mention the two in the same sentence or in the same paragraph in a TOS.

We are talking about REAL LIFE crimes be perpetrated over your private IP. Regardless of how SL might view SL's future as more of a protocol rather than a private platform, the fact is that in the here and now, LL owns SL and has the authority to run it as such. This isn't the Internet (yet).

It's not that hard to figure this one out. The flag is a symbol of pride for gay women and men. Placing a 'no' mark over it shows the persons objection to the flag, gay pride, and could be extended to include gay women and men. It was obviously created and erected to show thier feelings about a particular group of people in our country.

By saying that we are "crying" over something, you are intentionally marginalizing hate speech. You are furthering this action by continually using terms such as "boo hoo". Nobody here is whining or crying. Your are experiencing the affect of an outraged community. Go start another philosphical thread on the nature of symbolism and intolerance. This isn't the place for snarky high school philosophy class rhetoric.

Anyone that questions the intention behind this attack, is indeed naive and a poor apologist.

that's fine, I too am offended by what appears to be intollerance to our fellow people BUT, is that all it takes to constitute "hate speech"? how do you know that something you may innocently think of as funny or as making some kind of point under 'free speach' doesn't get you banned because someone is 'offended', don't you see where I'm getting at here people?

You are confusing the symbols (the defaced flags) with the intent, do you know that the owners are violent bigots? maybe they are Christians trying to make a feeble statement in what they feel is a non-threatening way. Of course it is most likely a dumbass redneck BUT you don't know that and you're ready to ban this person, and set up a chilling effect for the next person who may want to speak his mind.

Censorship is NOT a good thing people, better to be reminded that there are idiots out there than risk living in a politically correct bubble afraid to say what you truely feel.

Although, panda, sometimes the two are combined and might as well be Siamese twins -- and it's really unfortunate when that happens. Examples would be particle-bombing a club with anti-homosexual graphics and trying to crash a sim while shouting racist slurs. And also there are those who do it falsely believing it is a "joke" and not getting the full implication of their outwardly hateful actions.

now that is hatefull, but are the defaced flags on your own land the same thing?????

Come on daz... you're stretching it.

Personally, I think taking down the materials and a good 'speaking to' by a Linden should suffice for a first time deal. I saw it.. I'm gay and it didn't offend me to any degree - I just think whoever created it is either a f*cking bigot -or- an incredibly dense artist. Maybe I'm just a little thick-skinned over it, since I've dealt with this kind of crap every single day since I was a kid. The ugly glares, the whispers, the under-the-breath 'faggot' comment... you name it, I've seen/heard it.

What you're missing is the context for this specific example. Gay folk have been historically placed in a spot of second-class (or maybe third, who knows) citizen. They are routinely fired from jobs, refused service, have thier own children removed from thier home - all because they're gay. Oh, did I forget to mention the unequal legal status for couples?

Anyway... we have a long history of being trampled on. When you take that into context, the person posting that flag was trying, in thier own way, to place a nice, happy reminder to all gay SLers: You're second class and I don't approve of you.

Or, as I stated earlier, they could be one dense artist.

From what I've heard from a sex researcher friend, you are half right. Most die-hard homophobes are repressed homosexuals, OR have been sexually abused. That sort of thing can frack you up for life, and I do have sympathy for people who have endured that and can't move past it. But it's telling that one of the worst fears of so many macho men is that another man may find them sexually attractive.

Then there are the people who were just brought up to be intolerant, but they will usually come around when they start meeting people who are gay and learn they are just people too.

Yes, I've heard this before as what has been said many times in the face of government and I do think there are absurd extremities of political correctness.

I for one am seriously offended when someone cuts a watermelon in a method I find aesthetically unpleasant. For most, they think it's a joke or something I just made up to mess with them. NO. I really feel this way, and I am terribly offended.

However, I also recognize that (again, as been stated before):


-This world of Second Life is under private dominion of Linden Lab. Outworld excursions (those that may get the state of California and such involved) excluded, they are the law here. So one day they may decide to ban watermelons. Unlikely, but you can bet if it happens I'll scream. But really, Lindens have set the standards. With the input of the community, they decide, and revise policy as it is fit. Time goes on. We are a progressive e-society. And they have spoken on this case, and like Robin said... they're looking into it. Really.

-Words both liberate and cripple us at the same time. So much here is a mishmash of semantics and when someone says "DOG" then different people are gonna think of diff. dogs. Same thing with varied reactions to defaced flags, as you asked about. But then again, I refer to the Community Standards which outlines acceptable behavior, and as well-worded as it is, if you really wanted to, you could keep arguing with it. Some people like to say "sure" more than "certain". Some think "hate" is a strong word, others use it freely. Is it "hate speech" or is it "I don't like speech"? What a world, eh? But decisive action must be taken, because words without action are the blueprints that never gets the house built.

-There are many things that don't have definite answers and likely never will. Hammurabi didn't get it right the first time, and thousands of years later when we have mastered warp travel, we will still debate these things. However, I encourage the continuation of a chain of questions which will lead to more knowledge and betterment of self and community. There are so many positive things we can do to uplift each other.


And...

I recognize rainbow flags as a popular symbol of GLBT pride, symbolizing diversity. I love diversity, and even if I didn't associate those crossed-out icons with gay people, I'd certainly relate them to an attack on diversity. First and foremost, Second Life is a community of tolerance, respect... and diversity!

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So the answer is YES, defaced rainbow flags, here in SL are considered hate speech.

Please take action immediately then, that crap should not be left around.

daz, I can't give the "YES" officially here because I'm not a Linden...

but from my heart as a human being, YES.

so how do we bring this to the attention of the Linden's? are they tolerating this behavior, if so then why? and what can we do?

Thankfully, the latest is GOOD NEWS -- I've talked to several of them about things like this lately... and as Robin posted, right now it's Easter Weekend but they're working on improving the system. As she said:



/120/c3/39976/3.html#post430339

Lindens do regularly read the Forums to keep up-to-date with what's happening -- Pathfinder's recent posts come to mind -- so I'm hoping we continue to be supportive of the Lindens and constructively vocal against this kind of negative behavior in SL, continuing to bring it to the frontlines of attention. That would be most proactive approach.

Cool! we should be happy here and not feel like we're being persecuted...

Damn straight. SL should be more happy than Disneyland on a sunny day.

It's good they are reviewing 'this specific case' Pathfinder, but honestly that simply isn't enough. They need to review the whole process of how LL handles griefers, AND they need to have a Townhall about this problem. Probably a series of townhalls. LL has ignored the playerbase long enough on this this issue.

I am.

Robin, The thing is, what if someone commits hate speech, but on a different account than the first? Is that taken into account?



Yes. Global Sim Attacks are more difficult however, because one can accidently cause issues grid-wise, or objects can be labeled as wrongly created by someone else, one case I know of off-hand is when someone accidently crashed every sim with a telehub in it due to an attachment. However I don't see how anyone can "accidently" do some of these other things that are just out-right wrong.

I would say, all alts, should be treated with the same penalty that the alt that commited the act is. Because there is no way for LL to know who is behind each account, all LL knows is who is the registered holder of that account, thereby claiming responsibility. I myself wouldn't expect anything other than that.

It may seem "unfair", but again, theres no way for LL to tell who is behind each account and whether or not each account on one card is going to be used for violating acts.

SO true.