Anti-Gay Attack on My Pickerel Land : (

I'm not sure if finding out all the identities of an offender is possible if they got all kinds of relatives and friends to pony up credit cards for them, then just log on from whereever they are. It seems the easiest thing in the world in fact. The idea that you can just mouse-click and find everything is illusory -- what if that avatar name just didn't connect to anything else, nor did the phone or address or CC? In an extended family, you could get your mom, dad, step-mom, step-dad, step-brother, step-sister, brother, grandmother all to give you CCs with different last names even and states.

And in that sense, I guess it could be hard for the Lindens to track all the alts and the "main person" so to speak. What I don't get is why they don't see the ISP numbers sitting at the console, but maybe with zillions of log-ons coming in, it is not possible.

I had not really thought what the possible punishment would be for such a person. I figured if they did such a thing they cared not about banning, with their dormant, fairly new and unused alt, i.e. with no plusses or minuses on the ratings or no clubs. I know that Lindens ban offenders for only 3 days for being really wreckless and abusive and it doesn't put a dent in them, they just waltz back in.

What I am looking for in a situation like this is a clearly articulated position from the Lindens. It's good they have a TOS, but that's impersonal. That's why it's good when a figure like Pathfinder comes on and says "This is not allowed." OR when the Lindens demonstrate their concern for a case like this by immediately arriving at the scene and investigating and assuring you of their concern. That goes some way to creating a climate of tolerance, because the players have a sense that they can continue on without having to run for cover. I've often felt such a frustrating feeling of helplessness in this game, especially over the use of the illegal weapons and the pernicious bouncing script. I get zero attention from the Lindens on things like this and it infuriates me no end -- you feel like they are on Planet Mars when it comes to protecting property rights. Well, at least it is good to see that whatever instincts they possess prompt them to be more protective of civil rights and to promptly and vigorously respond.

I also think what you do in these cases is holler and say no way, will this be allowed to go on. And to continue what you were going to do, and if you happened to have the word GAY on your profile somewhere, not to take it off, not to change a thing, to just keep putting one foot in front of the other.

You might think a silly sign like this isn't much, it's not a really nasty grief attack like we know are possible. You might think hate crimes should exist as categories because any sign you didn't consent to be on your property is wrong, why be special about anti-gay signs? These are the debates. But I have to say that there is something different about an offense involving singling out an aspect of a person and using that as grounds for an attack. You can press "return" on an unwanted prim, but you can't press "return" on the hurt it caused -- it stays with you.

It's good that everyone gets indignant. I don't expect the Lindens to hold tolerance workshops and reform every player. There have to be player-based ways of creating the civilizing influences in our game that are absent from our real world

Signed.

Another option would be to charge their CC for offenses such as this along with suspensions, say, 50-1000 USD charged to their account for such a thing? Or more? But then you're asking the question "What price can you put on such a terrible act?". Which really there is no good answer to. However I do think hitting their bank account would speak volumes, plus LL benefits. But is benefiting on such a thing a good thing?

I'd much rather have the suggestion Catherine reitterated.

"Intollerance" should not be... well... tollerated. TOB in the biggest case should be applied.

You can call it a disciplinary fine for a severe infraction of the CS and ToS. I don't know what sort of legal precedent (or complications) there would be, but it serves more than a singular purpose. There are always counterpoints, as you pointed out, and another thing that came to mind is that some people hold hate in their hearts but do not necessarily noisily express it -- or, they may get others as pawns to do the "dirty deeds". But for those who choose to detract negatively from the enjoyment of the SL community in such a loud way, there are consequences for such actions, just like there are rewards for contributing positively.

Discussion can continue infinitely, but there are decisions to be made.

This may be where words end and actions begin.

One thousand US dollars because some jerk hurt someone's feelings? No way is that reasonable. That sort of thing gets out of hand immediatlely. At first we're all agreed because they're just charging THAT guy... then eventually one of us is getting ripped off.

If some future person is reading the registration information and finds out that pissing off the wrong person can cost him a thousand dollars, he won't sign up for Second Life and the Lindens will look like money-grubbing jerks. I had mentioned $5 before, but $1000 is just crazy. That's the cost of a used car, for crying out loud.

I'm all for making this sort of behavior a bit costly, but let's keep the numbers realistic. An account costs ten US dollars. So if you ban the alt immediately, it just cost the guy ten bucks to put those signs up. More, if you're able to track down his main account and ban that too. Again, bullies like to take free shots if they can.

Look, it's not like I don't know what it's like to be singled out. I was a late bloomer, and a high school nerd, and I've been through some other things I won't go into here. But there wasn't any special organization or law for me. I just had to buckle down and keep moving no matter what happened to me.

When you get all worked up over these people and attach special labels to them, you give them power. It makes them feel important, because they got to you. Don't give this guy the pleasure.

So if you believe that this flag-posting guy is somehow more special than the average narrow-minded dirtbag, then that's okay. We're probably not going to see eye-to-eye on that one. On the bright side, we all agree that he needs to be dunked in the trash can. If I see any of you folks in-world, at least we can drink to that.

Yes it's good to see a Linden in this post, and not before time.

I was a game mod in WWII Online and CC/ISP banning DOES work and you CAN find the original account plus alts 99% of the time.So now all we need is for someone over at Linden Labs to actually DO this and we'll be smiling.

Gydeon, you articulate your points very well, and I agree that one should not play into any sort of manipulative tomfoolery or psychological mind-games that some of these jerks get off on.

Parallel to the current system of justice which involves lengthened suspension times for increased repeat offenses, perhaps the same thing could be applied to charging fines and expotentially jacking them up -- it'd be unreasonable to suck $1000 out of a first-time greefer kin's wallet, but after so many attacks, a lesson is to be taught.

There are chances for redemption and opportunities for grace at many corners of life's roads -- the same can be said for Second Life. As a certain someone once taught me:

YOU EITHER LEARN OR YOU BURN

Agreed, the only way to hold these ppl accountable, no tolerance for biggots.

Catheirne Cotton

Agreed, the only way to hold these ppl accountable, no tolerance for biggots.

Catheirne Cotton

Pathfinder,

I can't tell you how pleased I was to read your comments, and I really hope that you mean them. One of the main problems I have with second life at the moment is the apparent tolerance of racism and bigotry within the community by the Lindens.

I believe there should be a zero tolerance attitude to this kind of crime. I agree with the other people who have said that if there is a clear and unambiguous example of this kind of hate speech, the reprisal should be instant and permanent banning of that av.

If I accidently get mad and shoot someone in a non-combat area. Sure, suspend me for a few days.

If I swear at an ausie and call him rude names because they won the cricket again, sure, suspend me..

But when someone
1) Creates some hate art
2) Uploads it to SL
3) Carefully creates an sign object
4) Carefully textures the sign with the art
4) Travels, looking for the most 'effective' place to put said item..

Well then you have a class-A as*hole, and someone who deserves IMMEDIATE and a COMPLETE ban.

How on earth does this person, in any reality, think that what they are doing is acceptable?

Answer, they clearly don't.

In fact, they can COUNT on just being banned a for a few days. Good time to think up a new scheme.

Jeez Lindens, it's time for some sense of scale and intent to be put behind the punishments. For '1st degree' offenses, BAN, for second and third degree, suspend.

Torley, this is exactly what these forums are all about. Here we are disagreeing on the finer points, but remaining solidly together on the basics. It really says something good about the SL community.

None of us are pleased about the signs that were put up. For me personally, the worst part was putting them on someone else's land. Prokofy was made into a sort of accomplice, and he got really upset about it. In fact, he probably felt a bit betrayed. It's very generous for someone to let others build on their land, even if the only thing they're risking is litter. If I had found stuff like this on my land after being nice enough to leave it open... man, I'd explode or something... just like Prokofy did.

Anyway, the point is this: regardless of how we as individuals think this should be handled, it's nice to see that as a group, we find it unacceptable.

Maybe someone could just build a public gallows in-world, and we could ban avatars that way? (Sorry, bad joke. Working on my first cup of coffee this morning...)

Excerpt from the project for the new second life front page, revised:

Grief!

Tired of being chased by the police in real life?
Seconde Life has countless possibilities even for you!
Be an evil mad scientist and deploy your world-wide virus all over the world, create your own mafia or cyber terrorist group, build a tentacular crime empire to strike fear in your foes, spread hate and intolerance against race, sexual orientation or religion and smuggle mass-destruction weapons to pave the road for world destruction!
Harrass! Threaten! Kill! Bomb!
The possibilities are endless!
And when those weaklings will try to abuse report you we'll send them a pre-recorded message to make them feel safe and do absolutely nothing else!
But the best thing is that if they try to react you will be able to abuse report them and we'll get rid of your enemies for you!
Don't worry if you accidently get banned for a couple days, you an still create a low-cost alt and play on!
Be a griefer! Welome to Second life!

Seriously (mmmh... actually i was dead serious even before... sigh) it's nice to see people as pathfinder taking things in their hands with so much enthusiasm, but i would like to see this behavioir against every kind of griefing and by the lindens as a whole. Unfortyunately, Pathfinder, LL has proven extremely lax against griefing as of late, with repeated offenders just midly scolded and then let out to play again. Extreme events like this are just the effect of griefers feeling safe to do as they want and should be a warning for LL telling them they are doing something wrong.

Same here - This is awful Prokofy! I am really horrified to learn about both this and the cross burnings described in this thread.

I don't think that the Lindens are deliberately soft on this behavior but I do think that if one has not been on the receiving act of something like this in RL that it can be difficult to understand how serious it can become and exactly what should be done.

The problem is that their homophobic and racist actions are not just some joke by a griefer with bad taste, but are actually an implied threat. People who do this sort of thing don't always stop at the symbolic. In other words, if they can track someone down it RL, then they can be a very real physical threat. As such, I think that this is justification for banning them from SL for life and perhaps even reporting them to the justice department for hate crimes in RL.

If you think I'm overstating things, well, I'll send you a .jpg of my brothers X-rays after similar type people broke his ribs, jaw and arm. It started with threatening letters that he and his partner got, as well as things that were done to many of the businesses in the area that were owned by people openly gay.

Don't treat things like this as if they are a juvenile joke. They aren't.

.

If you ban a set of accounts based on credit card info, it can often catch innocent parties rather than targeting the particular guilty individual.

But that's not necessarily a bad thing. After all it's not like they're being sentenced to 10 years in Leavenworth or something; a 14-day ban is, as others have pointed out, a virtual slap on the wrist. But the effects on CC-banning could be salutary.

Suppose you do have a group of friends on one CC, and they all get banned because of the actions of one. How do you think that the guilty party is going to be treated by his "friends" after his irresponsible antics ruin their fun?

Remember the scene in Full Metal Jacket when the drill instructor punishes the entire squad for the infractions of Private "Pyle"? Remember what happened to Pyle afterwards?

Now imagine that happening to someone who actually *deserves* it.

Letting someone use your CC info ought to imply some sense of responsibility; by allowing that person to use SL on your dime, you're basically vouching for their behavior, and have no cause to complain when your friend betrays your trust.

(And yes, I know it's only a minor hassle to get an additional CC. But how many people will go to even that much additional trouble just so that they can spray grafitti on a virtual world -- only to get banned again?)

If you ever want to kick their butt and need backup, I am just an IM away. Er...I mean...I hope they get banned.

If you are playing on the same computer of a griefer, or using the same CC of a griefer, you are probably the one in the best position to have him stop his griefing. If one doesn't do anything to stop his relatives/close RL friends from griefing, oh well, he is not so innocent him/herself.

If you lay with dogs, you will wake up with fleas. Birds of a feather flock together. You can judge a man by the people who surround him. Blah Blah. I see this as a non-issue. If your friend screws up and you all are on the same credit card (what kind of idiots are doing this anyway?) then you can suffer the same fate as them. That is risk you take.



This type of behavior only seems to be escalating in Second Life since it seems the word has spread this is a soft target. Second Life is a mental terrorists dream. The ability to create various items in world is endless and the ability to hide yourself seducing. If you are a cowardly bigot, this world is your fanatasy land. You might be the lowly flunky in the local Klan chapter at home but in SL you can be the Grand Wizard. A zero tolerance policy needs to be put into effect or these issues are going to rise to a level that will overshadow the metaverse.

For once there's an issue on which Prok and I can wholeheartedly agree. This kind of bullshit should simply not be tolerated.

Yeah, Gydeon! I'm thankful we're all having this discussion.



Yeah, Eboni! This is something I was just mentioning to my Jadey the other day. I don't have any proverbs to mention at the moment, but I do have a constant attraction to good vibes and celebrating what's most excellent in here, and this clearly ain't. On the topic of friends screwing up, it's curious, how many times have we seen messages posted on the Forums saying "My brother/cousin/friend/etc. got banned for so-and-so Lindens, please reactivate his account?" Just a thought.

I want to be able to speak proudly of those I am closest in company with. This was something instilled in me by my late father, who had an extremely high priority on being honorable and loyal -- to good people.

This is an issue more insistent than the bassline in Sattva's remix of Way Out West's "Echo of Silence". But we'll have no silence here!

If there is no place for this in SL then why is the account only suspended and not terminated?

Regardless, thanks for the response Pathfinder.

Prokofy, sorry this happened to you.

Post this douchebag's name to www.sluniverse.com/forums, Prok. LL CLEARLY doesn't give a shit if the only voice of concern is from a brand new Linden (kudos Pathfinder).

FYI, I'm in touch with other Lindens right now and we are reviewing this specific case. Should have something to post about it soon. Thanks for your patience (it being a holiday weekend and all, things are a bit slow).

Thanks Pathfinder, I understand that progress takes time . Silence can be uncomfortable and make peeps anxious -- I'm feeling the tension! -- but I know we'll be relieved to be updated on what's going on with this specific case.

ok other than an o with a / over a rainbow flag was there anything else with this "attack"??

I'm all for diversity and tollerance, but if that is all you're crying about you are going overboard, maybe they (the people who put the slahed flags up) are just making an art statement against junk prim floating around, maybe they are gays that don't conform to the rainbow flag? why is it a 'hate crime' to put a circle with a slash over a rainbow flag??????

geez this a 'hate crime'???? I think we are being a little over sensitive here, after all, all we have are these tacky flags to base this vast conspiracy on right?? did I miss something??

A basic tenet of SL has always been that we strongly believe in tolerance and hate speech is not allowed. In the case that Prokofy mentions there were 3 Lindens on the spot, including myself, to help clean up the mess and make sure the spill over on to neighboring parcels was also deleted. The perpetrator has been dealt with.

Cris' example is more difficult, and he and I have communicated about it. The problem is that I have no jurisdiction over the pictures on his site, and it doesn't appear that anyone saw the actual picture being taken -- at least no abuse reports have been filed. Interestingly (or unfortunately, depending on your perspective) our TOS doesn't allow the uploading of offensive material into SL, but it doesn't say anything about exporting offensive material to other sites -- something I'm looking at with our attorneys.

There are two questions you're asking here, I think. The first is if someone should be permanently banned from SL based on one instance of hate speech. Second, is whether alts should be suspended (a temporary action) along with a main account when disciplinary action is taken. In the first case I'd have to say no. If someone is intolerant (expressing through speech or action hate toward someone based on gender, sexual preference, religion, country of origin) they will receive the maximum penalty the first time - 14 days locked out of SL. If it happens again they should be banned, and if that hasn't happened in the past, I'll review our policy and its enforcement to make sure it happens in the future.

Alts are a difficult problem for us. It's very true that alts *are* often different people who share a credit card or a computer or both. Penalizing one for the actions of the other doesn't seem fair. Again, however, I think the policy needs examination. If someone is suspended for a truly heinous action (hate speech, global sim attacks) then perhaps alts *should* be suspended along with the perpetrator, regardless of whether or not there's a second, innocent, person involved. I can't change the policy this weekend, but it's already under discussion. I'll make sure a decision, one way or the other, gets posted next week.