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What should your content creators do next?

Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
10-08-2005 09:37
From: Malachi Petunia
As recently posted in a few forums:So if I'm reading this properly, they are soliciting "contributions" of pre-fab builds, clothing collections, vehicles that the creator/merchant would normally sell for L$1000 per sale. In exchange for this contribution LL will give you the equivalent of 3 sales (L$3000 ~ US$10) and the "free advertising" of having it included in every newbie inventory.

Now this is not as dire as some in this thread have predicted, as LL could conceivably just appropriate these materials "for promotional purposes" as some have noted above. The direct compensation of 3 sales is rather pitiful, but it is better than L$0, and there is no way to put a valuation on the "free advertising". Indeed, this may be a fabulous deal for someone who is trying to break into some pretty saturated markets.

If you do choose to go this route, I strongly recommend that you request that these newbie starter kit materials be marked no-transfer unless you want everyone who wants one for free to have one (which you may want) but do know what you are buying into with this deal.

Interesting (or not).

DANG! I want to do that, and we only have till Monday?

I bet the Lindens will decide what the permissions will be. Maybe you won't be able to mark them no-transfer.

(As a side note, I want to point out that anyone getting a second premium account should immediately delete these items from your inventory, since you aren't really "new" and don't really "need" them, as it is assumed your first Premium account is so well set financially it can afford to share everything with the second.)

coco

P.S. You'd THINK that would have been posted in announcements. Where people might look every day.
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Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
10-08-2005 09:44
Monday morns I really hate
Tuesday, Wednesday sleep in late
Thursday time to masturbate
It's friday - I'm making stuff........
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From: Jesse Linden
I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
10-08-2005 10:03
Saturday - I arse about
Sunday time to twist and shout... on Friday the asset servers out...

Monday there's fuck all to do
Same for Tuesday, Wednesday too!
Oh Thursday sucks and so do you...
...it's Friday , I'm making stuff...
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The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals.

From: Jesse Linden
I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
Malachi Petunia
Gentle Miscreant
Join date: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 3,414
10-08-2005 11:06
From: someone
You know SL is the first game I've seen where people not only read the TOS but attach any actual importance to what it says. :p
Haven't you yet realized that that is an essential part of the gam.... pardon me, content production metaversy platformish thing?
Emma Soyinka
Got moo? o_o
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 218
10-08-2005 13:49
Well, to illustrate why these TOSes are needed nowadays (and why I don't attach much importance to the law-babble in them) here's an example of how they can not only protect the service and it's providers, but the communities in them as well.

A long time ago a lot of MMORPGs had volunteer programs, where accepted volunteers were given a special status to do special things from having minor special powers to help with new players to hosting roleplay events on servers. However, these volunteers were required to spend a certain amount of time logged in or their volunteer status would be removed for inactivity.

Do you know when the volunteer programs in almost all games all dissapeared at once? When due to some obscure law all the service providers found themselves vulnerable to being sued for backpay by their volunteers, because according this law if you make a volunteer put in a minimum amount of hours on their volunteer work, you have to pay them for their time. All it took was one player in one game of many to find this obscure loophole and sue a company for all of them to instantly pull the plug on their programs.

The net result? This probably impacted the players and communities in these games more - in the end - than it did the companies because the companies simply got rid of the program and thus weren't liable to be sued again, but the community suffered the loss of help for new players, overarching roleplay events, volunteer support for player run towns, and just generally lost a whole chunk of their legacy.

Why? Because one player decided to get greedy and found a loophole.

Me? Yes, I think LL's TOS can be used to "evil ends", I don't think they ever will since if they did and it got out there'd be a public outcry that would be very bad for their business, and because I don't think LL is an evil, exploiting faceless megacorporation that just doesn't care. Mostly though I don't care because I was there when the UO volunteer program was terminated, I was there when thousands of players crammed into councelor's halls, the day when the cherished blue of the councellors (and the green of seers and bards) became not symbols of a community, but a color of mourning.

These preventative measures against people exploiting the legal system to hurt LL could be used to hurt us, the common player, but I can assure you that the greed of players who will exploit legal loopholes for personal gain can be stopped by these bad TOS clauses, and that in the end if can protect us as well, the whole community, from the greed of a single person.

Personally, I'm not worried, I'm not even angry. In a way, I'm glad Linden Labs is covering their ass, because in doing so they cover all our asses. Because you know what? Considering the ratio of Linden Labs employees versus players, the chances of there being a greedy player with harmful intentions out there is a lot higher than a greedy Linden with harmful intentions.

Of course, if you want to look at the pure black and white legal implications of the TOS, go ahead, you'd be right to say that it conflicts with the creative vision, you'd even be right to say that it's wrong and could be exploited to disadvantage players, but I prefer to look at the full picture. Sometimes creative vision has to make consessions towards legalities, maybe leaving the vision impaired, but at least not completely crippled.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I've been at the "don't" end of the stick myself, so I'd prefer they do.

/end minirant
Cienna Samiam
Bah.
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,316
10-08-2005 13:53
From: Emma Soyinka
I'm glad Linden Labs is covering their ass, because in doing so they cover all our asses.


Next time they lose your inventory and can't get it back, take a moment to turn around and observe that, while their ass is nicely covered by the ToS, yours is hanging out with a bullseye that reads, 'Fuck me right here, it's not covered' on it.
Emma Soyinka
Got moo? o_o
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 218
10-08-2005 14:01
From: Cienna Samiam
Next time they lose your inventory and can't get it back, take a moment to turn around and observe that, while their ass is nicely covered by the ToS, yours is hanging out with a bullseye that reads, 'Fuck me right here, it's not covered' on it.

Yes I'm sure they wouldn't lift a finger to help me if they could, right?

I mean, they didn't transfer the Iraq War Memorial the same day it came up, did they? No, not at all. Wait, actually, they did, and they were under no legal obligation to do so in any shape or form. If my inventory gets corrupted and they can only get parts of even none of it back, then you know what? I'll be horribly upset, but I won't be ranting about how LL sucks because their TOS screwed me because in all likelyhood they probably tried to help me and simply couldn't, because data sometimes just gets lost and corrupted.

You know what, when they terminate live help, mentors and other volunteer services from SL because someone got greedy and found some minor loophole and the TOS didn't cover LL in that case, and it hurts you and everyone else in this community, take a moment to observe this, and that you and the entire community would've had that "Fuck me right here, it's not covered" bullseye for a long time.

The pendulum swings both ways and in my opinion this way is better as long as you assume that LL isn't comprised of people who don't give a damn, and from everything I've seen they do give a damn so I'd rather take my chances with a small amount of employees getting greedy and bastardish than a whole playerbase, because I can assure you chances of one of those players being a greedy, corrupt, evil, heartless bastard is a LOT higher.

Make no mistake, you're taking a chance either way.
Cienna Samiam
Bah.
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,316
10-08-2005 14:03
From: Emma Soyinka
Yes I'm sure they wouldn't lift a finger to help me if they could, right?


Not if it meant replacing something they can't restore from a backup, no. I am boggled that so many people really do not seem to understand what this means.

Amazing. Truly.
Emma Soyinka
Got moo? o_o
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 218
10-08-2005 14:08
From: Cienna Samiam
Not if it meant replacing something they can't restore from a backup, no. I am boggled that so many people really do not seem to understand what this means.

Amazing. Truly.

You're assuming I did not realize this. If my inventory was lost and the corrupt data couldn't be unscrambled or restored from a backup, then I won't hold LL responsible, they looked at the backups and they looked at the data, and there just was no fixing it.

Expecting them to take a list of all the items I "recall" having before and handing new copies to me is a completely unrealistic expectation.

And for the record, I've been a system's administrator for over 3 years for a small volunteer roleplaying game. I know all about how hard it is to restore things if the data can't be salvaged and if backups prove insufficient to fix the situation, don't imply I lack the understanding to see this, because I can assure you I don't lack the understanding at all: I've restored lost and corrupted characters for people, and sometimes I've been unable to do so. Welcome to the realities of computers and inevitable loss of data that cannot ever be 100% prevented.

What it means? If they can't salvage the data or get it from a backup, I am truly and utterly fucked and inventoryless and I have to start over.

Tough shit, it happens. And I wouldn't expect any more from LL.
Cienna Samiam
Bah.
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,316
10-08-2005 14:43
From: Emma Soyinka
What it means? If they can't salvage the data or get it from a backup, I am truly and utterly fucked and inventoryless and I have to start over.

Tough shit, it happens. And I wouldn't expect any more from LL.


Which is, of course, why companies like this are forever being absolved from actually making good on things when they are clearly at fault. Thank you for helping to underscore that point.
Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
10-08-2005 15:28
From: Emma Soyinka
You're assuming I did not realize this. If my inventory was lost and the corrupt data couldn't be unscrambled or restored from a backup, then I won't hold LL responsible, they looked at the backups and they looked at the data, and there just was no fixing it.

Expecting them to take a list of all the items I "recall" having before and handing new copies to me is a completely unrealistic expectation.

And for the record, I've been a system's administrator for over 3 years for a small volunteer roleplaying game. I know all about how hard it is to restore things if the data can't be salvaged and if backups prove insufficient to fix the situation, don't imply I lack the understanding to see this, because I can assure you I don't lack the understanding at all: I've restored lost and corrupted characters for people, and sometimes I've been unable to do so. Welcome to the realities of computers and inevitable loss of data that cannot ever be 100% prevented.

What it means? If they can't salvage the data or get it from a backup, I am truly and utterly fucked and inventoryless and I have to start over.

Tough shit, it happens. And I wouldn't expect any more from LL.


You have decidedly low expectations. It is not unreasonable to expect Linden Lab to protect the integrity of data, especially since we have no capacity to back it up ourselves. Given their claims in the TOS, they are acting as an ISP. As such, they are lacking the minmum standards you would get from a crapola web hosting company in terms of accountability. Yes, shit happens. However, there are many things that can be done to protect against it. For example, if they can't get stuff out of their backups, what the fuck are they backing up for? You can throw up your hands and say shit happens, or you can demand more from them. We deserve more, honestly. Linden Lab's customers are paying the highest monthly fees of any online virtual world, and yet we do not have the protections of a $19.95 a month web hosting account.

This is a problem. I have suffered inventory loss and having two of my builds destroyed by bugs in LL's system. The inventory loss was very costly - I had ever scripted item on my land disappear, and very few of them were items I had created. They provided ZERO assistance in helping to get any of the content back. That is unacceptable, and having it occur on more than one occasion has been a huge disappointment for me when it comes to Linden Lab. Perhaps I should take the tact you are and just say "oh well, shit happens". I think to have that attitude though, I would need to drop to a basic account and not ever buy anything in SL. Snapzilla would have to go too. Then maybe I wouldn't care, but yeah, right now, I do care very much when shit happens, and it happens far too often.
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Cristiano


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Emma Soyinka
Got moo? o_o
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 218
10-08-2005 18:04
From: Cristiano Midnight
They provided ZERO assistance in helping to get any of the content back. That is unacceptable

Completely agree, this falls under the "they wouldn't lift a finger" clause in my posts above. I'm amazed LL would do that though, when I heard of them going above and beyond the call of duty in other cases. How confusing, you'd expect they'd do the same thing for all customers, not help in one instance and not in another.
Cienna Samiam
Bah.
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,316
10-08-2005 21:16
The ultimate point being -- companies like this, who offer service in exchange for our money, should be responsible for replacing things that are destroyed due to their own error. As it stands, they are not.... and the reason they are not is simply that customers continue to allow them to get away with it.
Rogo Gorky
Registered User
Join date: 9 May 2005
Posts: 39
10-08-2005 21:29
I do agree with that. I haven't had any issues with SL and am just curious about the TOS statements, but I see these people all over the place who have this typical "that's the way it is, get used to it" BS attitude. If they truly lived by their words, they would never return anythign that was broken or return food with a hair in it.

Speaking before they think, or they love hairburgers, don't know which.
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