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What should your content creators do next?

Kris Ritter
paradoxical embolism
Join date: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 6,627
10-06-2005 07:14
From: Cienna Samiam
Nope. Wrong. Nothing in the ToS about using the forums. An oversight, I'm sure.

Don't like it, don't read it. So like, STFU and stuff. K'thx! :)


*cough*

From: someone
1.1 The Agreement. Linden Research, Inc. ("Linden";) offers to allow you to use its multi-user online service "Second Life," use the software provided to you by Linden (collectively, the "Linden Software";) and participate in the environments that support the service, including without limitation the websites located at http://www.lindenlab.com and http://www.secondlife.com (collectively, and together with the Linden Software, the "Service"), solely conditioned on your agreement to all of the terms and conditions contained in this Terms of Service document (this "Agreement" or the "Terms of Service";) and your compliance with the posted Community Standards on the Second Life website, which you can find at this link: http://secondlife.com/corporate/cs.php. Your use of the Service constitutes your agreement to all such terms and conditions and your agreement to comply with the Community Standards. To confirm your agreement, you should accept this Agreement. If you do not so agree, you should decline this agreement, in which case you are prohibited from accessing or using the Service. Accessing or using the Service will be considered acceptance of this Agreement.
LordJason Kiesler
imperfection inventor.
Join date: 30 May 2004
Posts: 215
10-06-2005 07:22
Exactly, so if I have $300 worth of L$ for sale on there "service" and they change there TOS, and I dont agree to the changes, How do I get my $300?
Ricky Zamboni
Private citizen
Join date: 4 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,080
10-06-2005 07:29
From: Chip Midnight
Ricky, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't LL offer to buy you out and you declined? If they're such evil greedy lowlifes, why did they bother to offer you compensation?

Better late than never. :)

The following is a dramatization. Any relation to anyone living or dead is purely coincidental.

THE NEW DEAL: A PLAY IN ONE ACT

Scene 1: Content Maker (CM) is reorganizing his in-world store. Receives an IM from Promotion Linden (PL).

PL: "Congratulations! You've really raised the bar for skins and clothing. We'd like to make your entire catalog available for anyone to use."

CM: "Well, I'm already doing quite a brisk business. I'm sure most people that care know about my products. I've got kiosks all over SL and great word-of-mouth advertising."

PL: "We feel that for the good of the community, everyone should have access to them. You want newbies to look good too, right?"

CM: "Um...I guess so. What are you proposing?"

PL: "We'll pay you $1,000 for complete, unrestricted use of your product line for all users. It will go straight into their inventories and the public libraries."

CM: "I can make that much in a week's worth of sales. No way!"

PL: "Okay. How about this? $500, and a sinecure title as an 'avatar design consultant'."

CM: "That's worse than your first offer! Thanks, but no thanks! I've got an idea, though. I'll create an interface that any clothing/skin designer can use to present their work to users. All you have to do is create a simple hook-in through Orientation Island or the SL website. Let the user choose the outfit they like, and have the site automatically pay the one who designed it."

PL: "That's a great idea. We really want to make that happen some day. But for now, we're just going to give away your content."

CM: "Forget it. No deal."

PL: "We've made you an offer we think is fair, and now you're just stonewalling. We really want to get you on board with this. Call me if you change your mind."

Scene 2: CM is walking through the Welcome Area. Sees several Avatars wearing his designs.
A1: "Hey, look! I've got all this great clothing available in my inventory for free! I love Second Life!"

A2: "Me too! And skins! I also love Second Life."

A3: "What a great promotion this is! Now we can all look good! CM should be honoured that his designs were made so widely available."

A2: "Who is CM?"

CM: "All my hard work taken so arbitrarily. Oh cruel fate!"

Lag to black.

Finis.
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LordJason Kiesler
imperfection inventor.
Join date: 30 May 2004
Posts: 215
10-06-2005 07:45
Also Im reminded of some av skin templets that someone made quite a while ago, Back before there were really good templets or .obj models available. These images included a very complex set of lines that outlined just about every face on the av mesh.

Then, LL releases the av .obj files, cirously enough the UVmap for these files match thes older templets EXACTLY.

Did LL copy someones work?

Or did someone have acces to these resources before the rest of the community?
Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
10-06-2005 07:47
Ricky,

So just to clarify, Linden Lab is using your code then?
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Cristiano


ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less.

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Aimee Weber
The one on the right
Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
10-06-2005 07:49
From: Cristiano Midnight
Ricky,

So just to clarify, Linden Lab is using your code then?


Second clarification request for Ricky, Was LL's offer equal to what you made in a week?
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LordJason Kiesler
imperfection inventor.
Join date: 30 May 2004
Posts: 215
10-06-2005 07:52
From: Cristiano Midnight
Ricky,

So just to clarify, Linden Lab is using your code then?


What is this supposed to mean? So if I copy an image by print screen im not taking there "origonal work" If I copy a song by putting a mic next to my speakers thats ok?
If I re-build an object that duplacates another thats ok?
If I re-write code that exactly duplacates the windows OS but I didnt "copy there code" thats ok?
Aimee Weber
The one on the right
Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
10-06-2005 07:55
From: LordJason Kiesler
What is this supposed to mean? So if I copy an image by print screen im not taking there "origonal work" If I copy a song by putting a mic next to my speakers thats ok?
If I re-build an object that duplacates another thats ok?
If I re-write code that exactly duplacates the windows OS but I didnt "copy there code" thats ok?


I think he means that if LL didn't actually copy the code, then a better analogy in Ricky's play would be if PL started selling clothing LIKE CM's rather than distributing HIS clothing directly.
_____________________
Kris Ritter
paradoxical embolism
Join date: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 6,627
10-06-2005 08:01
From: LordJason Kiesler
What is this supposed to mean? So if I copy an image by print screen im not taking there "origonal work" If I copy a song by putting a mic next to my speakers thats ok?
If I re-build an object that duplacates another thats ok?
If I re-write code that exactly duplacates the windows OS but I didnt "copy there code" thats ok?


Those there are some fucked up analogies if you're trying to make a comparison to LL creating an integrated exchange some time after GOM implemented a 3rd party one.

The first one is.. well, no analogy at all. That would require that LL stole the code from GOMs website or something, although it's not really possible to compare audio copying to application code (oh, if only it were as simple as hitting the record button my sysdev job would be SO much easier!).

The second sounds like you're saying it's a valid argument to say "You can't make a car in SL! I already made one! Look! Yours does almost the same thing! :("

And the third seems to imply that LL's exchange is an absolute carbon copy of GOM's functionality. Which it is not, as should be evident to anyone that's made so much as a glancing comparison of the two.

And I still say it was bloody obvious to anyone that it would happen eventually. Eventually being the operative word with LL behind it :p
LordJason Kiesler
imperfection inventor.
Join date: 30 May 2004
Posts: 215
10-06-2005 08:14
From: Kris Ritter
Those there are some fucked up analogies if you're trying to make a comparison to LL creating an integrated exchange some time after GOM implemented a 3rd party one.

The first one is.. well, no analogy at all. That would require that LL stole the code from GOMs website or something, although it's not really possible to compare audio copying to application code (oh, if only it were as simple as hitting the record button my sysdev job would be SO much easier!).

The second sounds like you're saying it's a valid argument to say "You can't make a car in SL! I already made one! Look! Yours does almost the same thing! :("

And the third seems to imply that LL's exchange is an absolute carbon copy of GOM's functionality. Which it is not, as should be evident to anyone that's made so much as a glancing comparison of the two.

And I still say it was bloody obvious to anyone that it would happen eventually. Eventually being the operative word with LL behind it :p



Ok so if the US government steps in and Re-writes code that provides close to the same service that the Windows OS does, But makes there OS easy to get, "tied directly to the information they already have on file about you" ... ahh whatever im tired of arguing with people who are arguing just for the sake of arguing.

The fact still remains, LL offers a service to exchange L$, They say "We have 100% control over the L$, we can do with it as we please. If something goes wrong we owe you nothing. but we have taken measures to make sure that all of our rights are coverd, up to the right to Take anything that you make and use it however we please, with or without consent from you. Because just by using the service you give us thatconsent.
Kris Ritter
paradoxical embolism
Join date: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 6,627
10-06-2005 08:19
From: LordJason Kiesler

The fact still remains, LL offers a service to exchange L$, They say "We have 100% control over the L$, we can do with it as we please. If something goes wrong we owe you nothing. but we have taken measures to make sure that all of our rights are coverd, up to the right to Take anything that you make and use it however we please, with or without consent from you. Because just by using the service you give us thatconsent.


That's a whole seperate issue that has nothing much to do with your analogies at all. This is about differences between LLs solution and terms and 3rd party ones.

I still don't see how this blocks competition. If GOM had not decided to close its operations, I'm very sure (especially from talking to customers of theirs) that people would have still used GOM - largely BECAUSE the LL exchange does not offer the same sort of facilities.

Now customers don't have that choice. Although there are still other 3rd party exchanges that don't seem to be panicking quite the same... which also means that although GOM have chosen to abandon their customers... you still have a choice. It's not like you're locked into the LL one.
Jonquille Noir
Lemon Fresh
Join date: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,025
10-06-2005 08:21
From: Kris Ritter
I still don't see how this blocks competition. If GOM had not decided to close its operations, I'm very sure (especially from talking to customers of theirs) that people would have still used GOM - largely BECAUSE the LL exchange does not offer the same sort of facilities.


We had no plans of leaving GOM just because LL opened an exchange. We liked it, trusted it, and had more options than we have yet with LindeX.
_____________________
Little Rebel Designs
Gallinas
LordJason Kiesler
imperfection inventor.
Join date: 30 May 2004
Posts: 215
10-06-2005 08:23
From: Kris Ritter
That's a whole seperate issue that has nothing much to do with your analogies at all. This is about differences between LLs solution and terms and 3rd party ones.


No actually if you read the first post, this is exactly what this is about, and quite a few other things.
Ricky Zamboni
Private citizen
Join date: 4 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,080
10-06-2005 08:24
From: Cristiano Midnight
Ricky,

So just to clarify, Linden Lab is using your code then?

Never said they were. The point of the play (and this thread, I believe) was that the new TOS gives LL the right to arbitrarily take a user's creations for their own purposes, and an exploration of the consequences of the new TOS.

And, Aimee, the "one week" is just a demonstation that all offers are not created equal and was for illustrative purposes only. When one side in a negotiation is in a position of extreme dominance and can (100% within SL's terms of service) prevent the other party from remaining in the market ("for any reason or no reason";), there's really nothing that can be done by the weaker party. The dominant party can then say, "we made an offer and they declined" -- but was offer really reflective of the value of that which is to be expropriated, or was it a token, offered with the knowlede that, if declined, there's nothing to stop them from taking the content anyway? In the play, CM was offered a token amount, felt it wasn't worth the hard work he had put in, and was hoping PL wouldn't expropriate his creations. Sadly, 'twas not to have a happy ending for our tragic hero.
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Kris Ritter
paradoxical embolism
Join date: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 6,627
10-06-2005 08:24
From: LordJason Kiesler
No actually if you read the first post, this is exactly what this is about, and quite a few other things.


But nothing much to do with your analogies, which was what I was responding to specifically and said as much.
Seth Kanahoe
political fugue artist
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,220
10-06-2005 08:25
Hmmm. Reading and thinking about all of this, it struck me that I should be waiting for another corporation to come along and rip off the idea of a "Second Life", reverse engineer a lot of its code and features, and present it to international consumers - and perhaps even do a better job of it.
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Kris Ritter
paradoxical embolism
Join date: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 6,627
10-06-2005 08:27
From: Seth Kanahoe
Hmmm. Reading and thinking about all of this, it struck me that I should be waiting for another corporation to come along and rip off the idea of a "Second Life", reverse engineer a lot of its code and features, and present it to international consumers - and perhaps even do a better job of it.


And make no mistake it will happen. And of COURSE they'll try and learn from their competition. Who wouldnt?!

And I'll be one of the first through the door :D
Emma Soyinka
Got moo? o_o
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 218
10-06-2005 08:28
Just so I'm sure people realize this...

Linden Labs could always do all of this, you could just sue them over it before and ruin your personal finances with legal fees.

The TOS just means you can't choose to do the latter anymore. Were you planning on sueing LL in the near future? O_o

EDIT: And I pray to god that LL isn't stupid enough to not keep backups of the assets in world, and since I assume they're not negligent in this blatantly obvious department the chances of you factually losing work permanently are very small to even begin with. But hey, shit happens when computers are involved. The asset server might blow up and some data might be unrecoverable, I'm sure LL tries it's best to make sure that happens as infrequently as possible. It's almost a statistical impossibility to illiminate this kinda thing entirely.
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
10-06-2005 08:46
Seems to me like the worst part of the GOM thing is the Lindens having all your money, so that if you get banned (or for any or no reason), they can just take it.

Wouldn't this mean there SHOULD be another company that operates outside of SL? And can't that be done now with SLExchange and IGE?

Seems to me also that by giving my alt copies of the things I create, I am less likely to be wiped out, as two separate avatars will be holding them. Is this true? (Of course you can't do that with items you have made by someone else that can't be copied.)

coco
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VALENTINE BOUTIQUE
at Coco's Cottages

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Omaire Abattoir
O-Magine
Join date: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 86
10-06-2005 09:31
From: Siggy Romulus
Run around for 10 minutes screaming OMFG THE SKY IS FALLING! then have a smoke and get back to making shit.


Friggin' classic!

O
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Avs - Furniture - Other Cool Stuff
Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
10-06-2005 09:35
From: LordJason Kiesler
Also Im reminded of some av skin templets that someone made quite a while ago, Back before there were really good templets or .obj models available. These images included a very complex set of lines that outlined just about every face on the av mesh.

Then, LL releases the av .obj files, cirously enough the UVmap for these files match thes older templets EXACTLY.

Did LL copy someones work?

Or did someone have acces to these resources before the rest of the community?


No, and no. I reverse engineered the avatar mesh. I made a skin using the freely available and LL supplied template of the Mesh polygon lines (which has been freely available since beta). I created a grid box and took screenshots of my avatar in the davinci pose inside it, from enough angles that I could see every grid point from at least three different angles. Using those screenshots I was able to triangulate the position of each avatar vertex in 3d space. I was able to build the entire mesh except for the head which was too finely detailed to reconstruct that way. Once I had a mesh I was able to subdivide it and render wireframes of varying density back out to SL's UV template. I used those to consruct a template with a much finer grid mesh.

When I released my first versions Xenon Linden decided that it was high time LL released the actual avatar meshes for download (something they had intended to do for a long time but just never got around to it). I was a little frustrated at first because it seemed that the 100 or so hours it took me to reverse engineer the av mesh was a waste of time, but it wasn't actually. Xenon felt bad and actually apologized to me. It was very nice of him, and not really necessary. It was a very fun and challenging puzzle to solve. I learned things doing it. Armed with the LL supplied genuine av mesh I was able to use the techniques I'd learned to make even better and more accurate templates that now include the head and hands which I was never able to get right.

No favoritism. No special access. No theft. Just me seeing a need and a challenge, having an idea of how to accomplish it, and doing it. Solving the puzzle was 90% of the reward. Anyone with the same inspiration and tools could have done it.
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My other hobby:
www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight
Omaire Abattoir
O-Magine
Join date: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 86
10-06-2005 09:42
From: Chip Midnight
No, and no. I reverse engineered the avatar mesh. I made a skin using the freely available and LL supplied template of the Mesh polygon lines (which has been freely available since beta). I created a grid box and took screenshots of my avatar in the davinci pose inside it, from enough angles that I could see every grid point from at least three different angles. Using those screenshots I was able to triangulate the position of each avatar vertex in 3d space. I was able to build the entire mesh except for the head which was too finely detailed to reconstruct that way. Once I had a mesh I was able to subdivide it and render wireframes of varying density back out to SL's UV template. I used those to consruct a template with a much finer grid mesh.

When I released my first versions Xenon Linden decided that it was high time LL released the actual avatar meshes for download (something they had intended to do for a long time but just never got around to it). I was a little frustrated at first because it seemed that the 100 or so hours it took me to reverse engineer the av mesh was a waste of time, but it wasn't actually. Xenon felt bad and actually apologized to me. It was very nice of him, and not really necessary. It was a very fun and challenging puzzle to solve. I learned things doing it. Armed with the LL supplied genuine av mesh I was able to use the techniques I'd learned to make even better and more accurate templates that now include the head and hands which I was never able to get right.

No favoritism. No special access. No theft. Just me seeing a need and a challenge, having an idea of how to accomplish it, and doing it. Solving the puzzle was 90% of the reward. Anyone with the same inspiration and tools could have done it.


That's what I was going to try next... just after I split this atom! :eek:

O
_____________________
Avs - Furniture - Other Cool Stuff
Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
10-06-2005 09:45
From: Ricky Zamboni
Better late than never. :)

The following is a dramatization. Any relation to anyone living or dead is purely coincidental.

THE NEW DEAL: A PLAY IN ONE ACT

Scene 1: Content Maker (CM) is reorganizing his in-world store. Receives an IM from Promotion Linden (PL).

PL: "Congratulations! You've really raised the bar for skins and clothing. We'd like to make your entire catalog available for anyone to use."

CM: "Well, I'm already doing quite a brisk business. I'm sure most people that care know about my products. I've got kiosks all over SL and great word-of-mouth advertising."

PL: "We feel that for the good of the community, everyone should have access to them. You want newbies to look good too, right?"

CM: "Um...I guess so. What are you proposing?"

PL: "We'll pay you $1,000 for complete, unrestricted use of your product line for all users. It will go straight into their inventories and the public libraries."

CM: "I can make that much in a week's worth of sales. No way!"

PL: "Okay. How about this? $500, and a sinecure title as an 'avatar design consultant'."

CM: "That's worse than your first offer! Thanks, but no thanks! I've got an idea, though. I'll create an interface that any clothing/skin designer can use to present their work to users. All you have to do is create a simple hook-in through Orientation Island or the SL website. Let the user choose the outfit they like, and have the site automatically pay the one who designed it."

PL: "That's a great idea. We really want to make that happen some day. But for now, we're just going to give away your content."

CM: "Forget it. No deal."

PL: "We've made you an offer we think is fair, and now you're just stonewalling. We really want to get you on board with this. Call me if you change your mind."

Scene 2: CM is walking through the Welcome Area. Sees several Avatars wearing his designs.
A1: "Hey, look! I've got all this great clothing available in my inventory for free! I love Second Life!"

A2: "Me too! And skins! I also love Second Life."

A3: "What a great promotion this is! Now we can all look good! CM should be honoured that his designs were made so widely available."

A2: "Who is CM?"

CM: "All my hard work taken so arbitrarily. Oh cruel fate!"

Lag to black.

Finis.


Well ya know... LL has supplied everyone with a default skin since the day SL opened for alpha testing. I found it lacking and made something better. I was the first to turn it into a business and made a small fortune at it. Other people upon seeing how it took off followed suit and now there are dozens of skin makers. Some of them copied my business model. Some of them came up with innovative new ones. Some of those ideas I've adopted myself. I don't see competition from LL as being any different from competition from other content creators. It's a given and I welcome it.

At some point, whenever LL gets around to updating avatar and appearance features you can bet they they will make better default skins that may very well borrow ideas from me and other skinners, or offer to buy from one or more skinners. More power to them. When that happens and I see what the drawbacks of then new skins are I'll make new products to address the new market. I don't have any allusions about the life expectancy of any product or service I might offer. I do it for the challenge first, the fun second, and the profit last.
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Aimee Weber
The one on the right
Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
10-06-2005 10:12
From: Chip Midnight
At some point, whenever LL gets around to updating avatar and appearance features you can bet they they will make better default skins that may very well borrow ideas from me and other skinners, or offer to buy from one or more skinners. More power to them. When that happens and I see what the drawbacks of then new skins are I'll make new products to address the new market. I don't have any allusions about the life expectancy of any product or service I might offer. I do it for the challenge first, the fun second, and the profit last.


I think Chip and I approach SL business (and I suspect RL business) the same way. I don't see a future resting on my laurals, but rather anticipating and adapting to the changing playing field.

It's good we comb through the TOS so we know exactly where we stand when we make our business decisions. If some people are scared off from opening a business in SL for fear Linden Lab will actually wontonly perform some of the worst case scenarios that the TOS technically allows them ... well more cake for Chip and I :D But not all my eggs are in the *PREEN* basket so if something bombs that wing of the Aimee empire I feel comfortable knowing I can just focus on the next great thing.
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
10-06-2005 10:20
From: Chip Midnight
Using those screenshots I was able to triangulate the position of each avatar vertex in 3d space. I was able to build the entire mesh except for the head which was too finely detailed to reconstruct that way. Once I had a mesh I was able to subdivide it and render wireframes of varying density back out to SL's UV template. I used those to consruct a template with a much finer grid mesh.

...It was a very fun and challenging puzzle to solve. I learned things doing it. Armed with the LL supplied genuine av mesh I was able to use the techniques I'd learned to make even better and more accurate templates that now include the head and hands which I was never able to get right.

No favoritism. No special access. No theft. Just me seeing a need and a challenge, having an idea of how to accomplish it, and doing it. Solving the puzzle was 90% of the reward. Anyone with the same inspiration and tools could have done it.


You a bad mofo, Chip. I love the ballsy "I'm going to fucking figure it out if it's the last thing I do" kind of spirit. Bravo, for an awesome story, my friend. :)
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From: Hiro Pendragon
Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.


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