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What should your content creators do next?

Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
10-05-2005 23:14
Somebody should put up a big disclaimer stating Second Life is "for entertainment purposes only".
LordJason Kiesler
imperfection inventor.
Join date: 30 May 2004
Posts: 215
10-05-2005 23:28
From: Eggy Lippmann
Somebody should put up a big disclaimer stating Second Life is "for entertainment purposes only".

...
From: What is Second Life? Overview
The ability to design and resell 3D content, combined with the ability to own and develop land and a microcurrency, which can be exchanged to real money means that you can build a real business entirely within Second Life.

If you are a 3D content creator, entrepreneur, game developer, artist, or software developer, Second Life is guaranteed to blow your mind. It is a palette for creative self-expression like nothing you have ever seen. Jump in, find a sandbox, and start building.

Make all or part of your real world living from your efforts in Second Life


Now those 2 quotes just dont work well together do they?
Martin Magpie
Catherine Cotton
Join date: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,826
10-05-2005 23:29
From: LordJason Kiesler
How about this one,

You also understand and agree that by submitting your Content to any area of the Service, you automatically grant to Linden and to all other Participants a non-exclusive, worldwide, fully paid-up, transferable, irrevocable, royalty-free and perpetual License, under any and all patent rights you may have or obtain with respect to your Content, to use your Content for all purposes within the Service.

and "
within the Service", well thats ok lets just add a clothing browser and make it a part of "The service"

or lets just make an exchange system and make it a part of "the service"

And I still dont see any effort to include (You will be refunded for errors in the Linden exchange system) in the TOS.
Is this a mistake? They obveously spent enough time revising the tos to add a lot of information about there exchange system. But nothing saying "We will refund all losses due to errors".
In fact what they have is to the contrary.
7.2 Linden will not be liable for any interruption of the Service, delay or failure to perform, (snip)
except as otherwise specifically provided in this Agreement you shall not be entitled to any refunds of fees for interruption of service or failure to perform.


I will say it again, do not upload anything you are not willing to give away freely at any point in time. I personaly have all of my best textures stored on zip files never to see the light of day in SL. I thought about adding some to a few buildings but after the new TOS, "oh hell no" and you can quote me :)

Mar
Malachi Petunia
Gentle Miscreant
Join date: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 3,414
what to do next for content creators - a primer
10-05-2005 23:39
Give up.

All your base belong to King Philip when and If he desires, that is if an asset server "whoopsie" doesn't make it disappear first.

Or decide that you really don't care that LL pissed their amazing, revolutionary, Intellectual Property Public Relations Pseudo-Ideal out the window when it suited them and be glad that they let you log in at all, you piddling little creators who turned an empty terrain into something vaguely interesting and paid for the privilege to do so.

From: Philip Rosedate 14-Nov-03
Until now, any content created by users for persistent state worlds, such as EverQuest® or Star Wars Galaxies™, has essentially become the property of the company developing and hosting the world," said Rosedale. "We believe our new policy recognizes the fact that persistent world users are making significant contributions to building these worlds and should be able to both own the content they create and share in the value that is created. The preservation of users' property rights is a necessary step toward the emergence of genuinely real online worlds.
SWG, anyone?
Rogo Gorky
Registered User
Join date: 9 May 2005
Posts: 39
10-05-2005 23:46
From: Malachi Petunia
Give up.

All your base belong to King Philip when and If he desires, that is if an asset server "whoopsie" doesn't make it disappear first.

Or decide that you really don't care that LL pissed their amazing, revolutionary, Intellectual Property Public Relations Pseudo-Ideal out the window when it suited them and be glad that they let you log in at all, you piddling little creators who turned an empty terrain into something vaguely interesting and paid for the privilege to do so.

SWG, anyone?



Oh god, don't get me started on SWG... the crappiest crap that ever crapped a crap.

Don't go down the dark path Lindens, Turn back now, there is still good in you.
Just look at the flaming, twisted wreck that Sony turned SWG into by treating it's users as know-nothing nobodies who pay the bills but have no useful opinion about anything at all.
Lo Jacobs
Awesome Possum
Join date: 28 May 2004
Posts: 2,734
10-05-2005 23:50
Can everyone see the huge question mark above my head?

Whenever I try to look up it just moves with my head.
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Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
10-05-2005 23:56
From: LordJason Kiesler
Now those 2 quotes just dont work well together do they?

Erm... marketing hype != cruel reality?
Nothing LL says on the website, forums, or the media is legally binding. Only the ToS are.
I was promised Havok2 in Beta. I was personally assured by Andrew Linden that 1.7 was "all about Havok2" and that 1.7 would not launch without it ;)
I was also promised international keyboard support on the first day of public beta. It took them two years to get a somewhat incomplete version of it going.
I've seen LL radically change directions more than once... to great personal cost. I know better than rely on SL for anything serious. It's "just a game" ;)
Martin Magpie
Catherine Cotton
Join date: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,826
10-06-2005 00:12
From: Rogo Gorky
Oh god, don't get me started on SWG... the crappiest crap that ever crapped a crap.



OK LOL ya'll thats some funny "crap" right there...i tell you what ;)

Mar
Martin Magpie
Catherine Cotton
Join date: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,826
10-06-2005 00:14
From: Malachi Petunia
Give up.

All your base belong to King Philip when and If he desires, that is if an asset server "whoopsie" doesn't make it disappear first.

Or decide that you really don't care that LL pissed their amazing, revolutionary, Intellectual Property Public Relations Pseudo-Ideal out the window when it suited them and be glad that they let you log in at all, you piddling little creators who turned an empty terrain into something vaguely interesting and paid for the privilege to do so.

SWG, anyone?



I hear ya Malachi.

Mar
Torley Linden
Enlightenment!
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 16,530
10-06-2005 00:14
People who practice a drunken boxing-equivalent to content creation are bound to prosper, not only by craftsmanship alone but by spirit too! :)
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LordJason Kiesler
imperfection inventor.
Join date: 30 May 2004
Posts: 215
10-06-2005 00:15
From: Eggy Lippmann
Erm... marketing hype != cruel reality?
Nothing LL says on the website, forums, or the media is legally binding. Only the ToS are.
I was promised Havok2 in Beta. I was personally assured by Andrew Linden that 1.7 was "all about Havok2" and that 1.7 would not launch without it ;)
I was also promised international keyboard support on the first day of public beta. It took them two years to get a somewhat incomplete version of it going.
I've seen LL radically change directions more than once... to great personal cost. I know better than rely on SL for anything serious. It's "just a game" ;)


Well even so, People "like me" have been fooled by the marketing hype.
Prehaps It is my own stupidity, Perhaps I should not have belived the marketing hype, The people inworld (and out) telling me these very same things (make money in SL! etc.)
Perhaps I should have stuck to the (too good to be true) mentality.
But I wish that someone could have come forward and been honist with me much sooner. But if all of this is so, LL's whole operation is based on a lie, and the only reason that SL continues to grow is people belive that lie. If there are no people fooled by the hype "the content creators" then there would be no content.

Its starting to sound to me like LL will just say anything at all to keep you here and "imagineering" Your (cough) World.
Malachi Petunia
Gentle Miscreant
Join date: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 3,414
10-06-2005 03:19
Game resolution texture and 8 prim resizable sign available for free in-game; request via IM, please.

As was noted by some, my "delegaliztion" is based upon a broad (but arguably valid) reading of the definitions in Section 1. A more charitable reading would be only within SL as we know it. But as anyone who has had the misfortune of tangling with contract law knows, the law is at best a expensive ass when it comes to matters of interpretation.
Kris Ritter
paradoxical embolism
Join date: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 6,627
10-06-2005 03:40
I wish you lot would stop whining about how unjust it all is and fuck off out of SL! Sheesh.

Oh. And stop using your O/S. And your PC. Since there are some hefty disclaimers on those too! Do you know that if Windows chooses to eat all your data instead of defragging it... tough shit! and its on YOUR OWN FUCKING PC!!!!!

How unfair is that?!

No one forces you to log in. No one forces you to create content. Exercise your rights to free will! That'll learn 'em!
Malachi Petunia
Gentle Miscreant
Join date: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 3,414
10-06-2005 03:54
From: Kris Ritter
I wish you lot would stop whining about how unjust it all is and fuck off out of SL! Sheesh.

Oh. And stop using your O/S. And your PC. Since there are some hefty disclaimers on those too! Do you know that if Windows chooses to eat all your data instead of defragging it... tough shit! and its on YOUR OWN FUCKING PC!!!!!

How unfair is that?!

No one forces you to log in. No one forces you to create content. Exercise your rights to free will! That'll learn 'em!
I couldn't agree more.

However, when Linden Lab actively sells their service with promotional "guarantee" that you retain certain rights in content you create while simultaneously forcing you to waive those rights through ToS fine print, I think it not unreasonable to point out the disjunction.

There is one way in which your analogy fails to hold; you are right that Windows (or Seagate, etc.) can eat your data with no liability to you. The difference is that Windows et alia allow you to back up your work - SL doesn't.

I never said that anything that LL is doing is unfair. I am asserting that they are being deceptive. Nor am I saying they will appropiate your content, simply that the new ToS says they *can* if they wish.

And incidentally, should you chose to read "The Lorax" section of my attachment above, you'll note that I have exercised my free will and have torn down my bitty shop and am no longer creating content. Not that the world will be diminished in the least by my pulling my wares, but I'm only one person.
Kris Ritter
paradoxical embolism
Join date: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 6,627
10-06-2005 04:10
do you mind?! I'm trying to troll here!

actually, I'm sympathetic to the concerns, being the victim of one of LL's random inventory wipings, losing a not at all inconsiderable USD amount of stuff I've bought off people, and hundreds and hundreds of hours of my own work.

But it seems to me that no amount of shouting about it is going to make a difference. It's standard disclaimer type stuff. And as Eggy says, the hype is never equal to the reality.

If you truly disagree with LL's terms, you shouldn't log in.
Jesrad Seraph
Nonsense
Join date: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,463
10-06-2005 04:20
As for me, I can disagree with some of these terms and still log in. Thanks to the Abusive Clauses Commission's legal precedents here ;)
_____________________
Either Man can enjoy universal freedom, or Man cannot. If it is possible then everyone can act freely if they don't stop anyone else from doing same. If it is not possible, then conflict will arise anyway so punch those that try to stop you. In conclusion the only strategy that wins in all cases is that of doing what you want against all adversity, as long as you respect that right in others.
Kris Ritter
paradoxical embolism
Join date: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 6,627
10-06-2005 04:22
From: Jesrad Seraph
As for me, I can disagree with some of these terms and still log in. Thanks to the Abusive Clauses Court's precedents here ;)


Interesting. I would have to say I'm completely ignorant of that or what it means. How do you prove what's abusive and what's fair? And surely in an international environment, the onus would be on LL to ensure that their ToS doesn't fall foul of any such laws?

So you can really just sign up to someone's service, ignore and disagree with their disclaimer and worry about it later when you want to go against the terms?
Seth Kanahoe
political fugue artist
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,220
10-06-2005 04:31
From: Malachi Petunia
...LL pissed their amazing, revolutionary, Intellectual Property Public Relations Pseudo-Ideal out the window when it suited them....


I was wondering if anyone thought this was an issue. I took it seriously; it was the reason why I gave Second Life a Second Look.
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Cienna Samiam
Bah.
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,316
10-06-2005 04:42
From: Kris Ritter
But it seems to me that no amount of shouting about it is going to make a difference. It's standard disclaimer type stuff. And as Eggy says, the hype is never equal to the reality.

If you truly disagree with LL's terms, you shouldn't log in.


Precisely. What is sad to me is that so many people are this unconcerned with the reality that this really is just a game, like any other game, and all the bullshit about 'higher ideals' and 'creating a platform' and 'your work here matters' is revealed as being such.

All in the name of corporate liability.

Nice.

Let's just say here is the proof that SL will never be more than a game.... because the people in charge of it are just as much as gaming (the market, their users, etc.) as anyone else in the industry.

I haven't logged in since that 'fuck through' EULA went up. I won't. But I may still hang out here. We'll see.
Malachi Petunia
Gentle Miscreant
Join date: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 3,414
10-06-2005 05:15
From: someone
do you mind?! I'm trying to troll here!
Do *you* mind? *I'm* trying to troll here. :rolleyes:

On a more serious note, I've made personal comittments to people in-game (not for creation of goods, mind you). So I'm stuck between violating my personal comittments to people and being obliged to accept terms of a contract that is at gross divergence with the game I started playing. My personal morality causes me to choose the former.

Furthermore my idealism regarding LL has not been completely shattered yet. Despite Mr. "I got to ride the bubble at Real Inc. and believe my happy accident to be the result of my inherent aptitude" Linden I happen to think that most of the Linden Lab staff are truly good people who are working under the command of a Marketroid-turned-Bad. I've seen the sort of environment that someone in that position is capable of inflicting on otherwise good people; indeed, I've had to "clean up" the mess left in the wake of similar. It is my fervent hope that some of the Board of Directors - all of whom have demonstrated much more altruistic conduct - will ultimately see fit to move the CEO to a position more appropriate to his talents.

If SL is a world and not a game, then I do have the vanity of considering myself a "stakeholder". Regardless of your terminology, there is something about the community drawn around SL that might be likened to the *social* aspects of, say, a church congregation. I have met some truely fine people within this community, have helped some and been helped by some. No, I have no fiscal interest in SL or LL, but as I've noted before, motivations do and ought go beyond that. From my current perspective, SL is little more than a pretty chat room, and I will not reject two years of association with real people because of a greedy, corporatist change in the ToS.
Kris Ritter
paradoxical embolism
Join date: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 6,627
10-06-2005 05:32
well, I agree with your assessment of LL, Malachi :)

But I gotta say I have lost the faith, having tried to deal with them about a number of problems I've had and getting nowhere despite the amount of money I was shovelling their way each month. And having seen the way they chose to deal with (or not deal with) stuff like the client hack.

Just because your ToS says 'tough shit' doesnt mean that should be your attitude at all. Especially if you want loyal customers. And I can't in all conscience give my money to a company that have such a complete disregard for their customers issues.

Of course, the other way to get loyal customers is to have a unique product thats addictive as crack but pretty crappy, and people will fork over the cash despite its failings!

I did that for a loooong time before I realised it just wasn't going to ever get any better. So as much as I love SL and its potential, I finally managed to drag myself off it and put my time and money to better use. Although the buzz of that 'will it/wont it be there/work today' risk you take with SL was always part of the fun, wasn't it? :p

Now if only I could find another way to amuse myself at work I could kick the damn forum habit too.
Ricky Zamboni
Private citizen
Join date: 4 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,080
10-06-2005 06:01
From: Schwanson Schlegel
I was just trying to save space.

I found your post ironic, especially considering it was addressed to Ricky, co-founder of GOM....

The irony was not lost on me, either. :)
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Lordfly Digeridoo
Prim Orchestrator
Join date: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 3,628
10-06-2005 06:50
So the consensus is now that LLab sucks, the platform they have is a horrible shell of what it used to be, they are money-raping pillagers of IP, and that they also beat and rape kittens for fun and profit. Of course, it's been like this for MONTHS, but yada yada yada, in conclusion you're all still here.

Whatever.

I TOLD people that if you start to take SL seriously it's going to bite you in the ass.

So you can make money at it. Great! You can make money playing poker too, maybe even enough to support yourself. It doesn't mean poker's a platform. It's just a hobby you can get rich playing.

And another thing.

A lot of this hyperbole and shit-flinging and end-of-the-worldism is coming at the expense of lindens who most of you don't even know.

GASP FIC OMFG LOLLERZ

shut up and listen.

Linden Lab, and its worker bees, have always been some of the most approachable people I've ever had the chance to meet in a corporate environment. Have you ever had a chat with any of them? Ben? Ryan? Jeff? Andrew? Robin? Philip? Talk to them. All of them have these great dreams of what LLab can be, and they all seem to be genuinely working towards that goal. If you actually TALKED to the person behind the avatar, instead of blindly flinging hyperbole-charged shit at them, you might actually get a grasp of what the company is all about.

Is the ToS draconian? Yeah. So is IP law and the civil court system.

People keep bringing up GOM as a shining example of what an evil horrible corporate hegemony Linden Lab is.

Was GOM patented?

Were they not approached for a buyout?

Were they not allowed to continue their business, even though they chose not to?

As to the answers of those questions, if you're playing at home, it's "i doubt it, they were, and they were".


Are those answers from a horrible steaming pile of dogshit company? No.

If this were Sony, they would have taken your IP, banned you from using it, and then used it themselves. Assuming they didn't ban you for selling stuff in the first place. Or using the word "fuck" in their forums.

In closing, I'd really like those of you complaining about the ToS to either shit or get off the pot. If you don't agree to the ToS, you can't post here either. Sorry, but if you didn't agree, you can't participate. Ciao.

Another pre-cereal rant from a curmudgeony player.

LF
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LordJason Kiesler
imperfection inventor.
Join date: 30 May 2004
Posts: 215
10-06-2005 07:09
From: Kris Ritter
I wish you lot would stop whining about how unjust it all is and fuck off out of SL! Sheesh.

Oh. And stop using your O/S. And your PC. Since there are some hefty disclaimers on those too! Do you know that if Windows chooses to eat all your data instead of defragging it... tough shit! and its on YOUR OWN FUCKING PC!!!!!

How unfair is that?!

No one forces you to log in. No one forces you to create content. Exercise your rights to free will! That'll learn 'em!

From: Kris Ritter
do you mind?! I'm trying to troll here!

actually, I'm sympathetic to the concerns, being the victim of one of LL's random inventory wipings, losing a not at all inconsiderable USD amount of stuff I've bought off people, and hundreds and hundreds of hours of my own work.

But it seems to me that no amount of shouting about it is going to make a difference. It's standard disclaimer type stuff. And as Eggy says, the hype is never equal to the reality.

If you truly disagree with LL's terms, you shouldn't log in.


Actually the disclamer on my OS basicly says "this has no gurentee", But I have 100% control, 100% access to all of the source code, and nobody can take that away.
I will NEVER use, support, or recommend windows again.
And I have not loged in to SL sense this.
Cienna Samiam
Bah.
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,316
10-06-2005 07:10
From: Lordfly Digeridoo
In closing, I'd really like those of you complaining about the ToS to either shit or get off the pot. If you don't agree to the ToS, you can't post here either. Sorry, but if you didn't agree, you can't participate. Ciao.

Another pre-cereal rant from a curmudgeony player.

LF


Nope. Wrong. Nothing in the ToS about using the forums. An oversight, I'm sure.

Don't like it, don't read it. So like, STFU and stuff. K'thx! :)
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