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What should your content creators do next?

Seth Kanahoe
political fugue artist
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,220
10-06-2005 12:33
From: Chip Midnight
... I'll make new products to address the new market. I don't have any allusions about the life expectancy of any product or service I might offer. I do it for the challenge first, the fun second, and the profit last.


So, presumably - on a larger scale - when LL and SL is superceded by a new and better developer with a new and better product, you and I will have no problem moving on. For the challenge, fun, and profit.

Good! A point of agreement we can all live with, I think.
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
10-06-2005 12:48
From: Seth Kanahoe
So, presumably - on a larger scale - when LL and SL is superceded by a new and better developer with a new and better product, you and I will have no problem moving on. For the challenge, fun, and profit.

Good! A point of agreement we can all live with, I think.


Absolutely. Or I may have a presence in both, time allowing. I'm very much looking forward to more competition in this mmo niche!
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Lordfly Digeridoo
Prim Orchestrator
Join date: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 3,628
10-06-2005 13:02
From: LordJason Kiesler
Havnt had time for that, Havnt had time for llName2Key, havnt had time for a Linux client, havnt had time for physics upgrade,
BUT they have had time for Chat bubbles!


I have not preformed a true gauging of this but,
It appears that Bug fixing, "Development", etc is going no faster now than it did before. But hey we do have more sims, Great lets just keep adding sims at such a quick rate, that maybe they will all work together to become selfe aware and Write there own Physics code.



So much for not adding any more sarcasm. :rolleyes:

By the way, it's their, and they're, not "there" all the time.

From: someone

And If the business wants customers it is usually good to give them some.


which Llab does? Do you see your privacy raped and pillaged on a daily basis?


From: someone

So that makes it right? Your saying we should not hold LL to a higher standard?


Are they suddenly gods? Last I checked they were as human as you or me. They are held to the standards I hold everyone else to.

From: someone

But In the real world I can still sue if visa ruins my credit history for an unjust cause.


And lose, of course. Unless you have the paper trail for it, you will lose big time.

From: someone

but the same thing goes the other way, If this is not an issue for you then dont bother posting here. This thread is for people who consider this an issue.


Ah, the "if you don't like it, leave" defense turned around. Brilliant!

So no one should disagree? Just a big ditto-head meeting?

LF
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LordJason Kiesler
imperfection inventor.
Join date: 30 May 2004
Posts: 215
10-06-2005 13:16
From: Lordfly Digeridoo
So much for not adding any more sarcasm. :rolleyes:

By the way, it's their, and they're, not "there" all the time.

You are correct, I apologize for my sarcasm.

From: Lordfly Digeridoo

which Llab does? Do you see your privacy raped and pillaged on a daily basis?

So its ok if its just a little bit, As long as it does not happen a lot?
It is ok to tell little lies?

Aparently I was not raised with the same morals as you, which by the way......
From: Lordfly Digeridoo

Are they suddenly gods? Last I checked they were as human as you or me. They are held to the standards I hold everyone else to.

in my upbringing, applies to humans.

From: Lordfly Digeridoo

And lose, of course. Unless you have the paper trail for it, you will lose big time.

Difference,
Visa
They can do it, | The law says that may not
LL
They can do it | The law says they may

From: Lordfly Digeridoo

Ah, the "if you don't like it, leave" defense turned around. Brilliant!

So no one should disagree? Just a big ditto-head meeting?

LF

Again you are correct, I have no right to tell you what you can do, simply because of my opinion.
Cienna Samiam
Bah.
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,316
10-06-2005 13:19
From: Lordfly Digeridoo
Yes, they can take your shit for no reason. So can any other company on the face of the earth. Visa can ruin your credit history at the push of a button. The US government can wipe your social security number off the face of the earth. You can become an un-person in 30 seconds flat.

And yet, daily, billions of business deals go on.

If you don't agree with LLab's "new" ToS, feel free to not connect and develop a new, shiny service that is better than SL in every conceivable way. Except don't you dare ever put any sort of legal safeguard in your ToS, because that'd be evil.

EVIL!

LF


Look, I fully understand you 'just don't get it', and am pretty sure the reason you 'just don't get it' is because you haven't actually had to live through it in any manner.

There is more happening here than just another company deciding to CYA. It is an on-going pre-emptive attack upon consumer rights, using binding arbitration as a means of escaping the threat of things like precedents and case law ever hitting the books that will make companies AS RESPONSIBLE TO THEIR CUSTOMERS as they expect their customers to be to them.

If you're so much more concerned with stepping out from under your own responsibility to your customers that you can't even promise your customers to replace things they lose because of your own fucked up code, yes, something is wrong.

If you're more concerned with not being responsible for your customer's losses when those losses happened because you failed to appropriately store and secure their data, yes, something is wrong.

If you're more concerned with tying your customers up in arbitration than giving them good service and fair value, then yes, something is wrong.

And no, it is not right that corporations are allowed to make consumer rights a non-issue simply by virtue of a 'fuck through' agreement like this. Sorry, no. It's just wrong.

This change is the singular proof that LL is in no way, shape, or form interested in fostering 'the metaverse', but merely interested in duping as many people as possible into thinking they are.... or do you not 'get' that a concept like 'the metaverse' is more than creating the newest iteration of AOL?

LL doesn't care about you. They do not care about what you want to do in SL. They do not care if their code or bad backups costs you hundreds or thousands of hours or dollars. They don't have to care because you let them off the hook by agreeing to that 'fuck through' EULA. All they care about is:

1) Will you buy a sim?
2) Will you buy Lindens?
3) Will you be a nice little stooge and make them look good so they can dupe more people into the place to do 1, 2, and eventually 3?


And no, you don't have to care so long as it all goes well with you. It's a god damn pity that so many people look no further ahead than their nose. But the really sad part is that people who have the most to lose in this scenario are the very ones blithering about how it doesn't mean anything. I am boggled that these people, people I would normally consider intelligent, could possibly be so dense.

Meh. You're right in the end, however. I don't have to care anymore. I don't need to be here anymore. I suppose I was hoping it was a mistake. Silly me. (wry grin)
Martin Magpie
Catherine Cotton
Join date: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,826
10-06-2005 13:23
Ok I read the entire thread…

The largest concern I have was best said by

MalachI~ ”However, when Linden Lab actively sells their service with promotional "guarantee" that you retain certain rights in content you create while simultaneously forcing you to waive those rights through ToS fine print, I think it not unreasonable to point out the disjunction.”

If LL has chosen to contratict their own beliefs what are we realy to believe. One policy obviously cancells out the other. As a content creator I do not believe in all honesty it is realistic for LL to charge me for their service and then claim that all of my content in affect is their content in which they can use as they please at their discresion. Not limited to using my content for their commercial marketing purposes. Offering zero compensation to the content creator in the process of using my art for their ads.

The post that I found the most compelling was best said by

Cienna;
“Precisely. What is sad to me is that so many people are this unconcerned with the reality that this really is just a game, like any other game, and all the bullshit about 'higher ideals' and 'creating a platform' and 'your work here matters' is revealed as being such.

All in the name of corporate liability.

Nice.

Let's just say here is the proof that SL will never be more than a game.... because the people in charge of it are just as much as gaming (the market, their users, etc.) as anyone else in the industry.

I haven't logged in since that 'fuck through' EULA went up. I won't. But I may still hang out here. We'll see.”


Honestly when I read the new TOS I sat at my computer and debated for a good 20 min myself. I cannot help but wonder if other content creators also feel the same. More so how will this affect other content creators who are teetering on joining SL or not.

On the subject of customer loyalty I not only agree with Kris but for the same reasons I sold both of my islands recently. She put it best;

Kris “well, I agree with your assessment of LL, Malachi

But I gotta say I have lost the faith, having tried to deal with them about a number of problems I've had and getting nowhere despite the amount of money I was shovelling their way each month. And having seen the way they chose to deal with (or not deal with) stuff like the client hack.

Just because your ToS says 'tough shit' doesnt mean that should be your attitude at all. Especially if you want loyal customers. And I can't in all conscience give my money to a company that have such a complete disregard for their customers issues.

Of course, the other way to get loyal customers is to have a unique product thats addictive as crack but pretty crappy, and people will fork over the cash despite its failings!

I did that for a loooong time before I realised it just wasn't going to ever get any better. So as much as I love SL and its potential, I finally managed to drag myself off it and put my time and money to better use. Although the buzz of that 'will it/wont it be there/work today' risk you take with SL was always part of the fun, wasn't it?

Now if only I could find another way to amuse myself at work I could kick the damn forum habit too. “


Was it a coincidence that LL just happened to start their own GOM? No I think it would be naive to think it was. Which honestly leads me down a path of suspicious and distrust of LL policy; at this point in time.

By the new TOS and LineX systems yes in fact they can take my us$ for any and no reason what so ever. I think that is a blanket statement to cover their own asses but again the customer has zero recourse if this were to happen, that is a frightening thought. I have never been a fan of “putting all my eggs in the same basket” I am uncomfortable with LL having so much power over my account and all US/L$ access to it. Given the fact that no refunds will be issued. And the only discretion is LL discretion.

Is there a difference between taking a creation or an idea?
In the case of the GOM I would say yes because that idea was unique. It was not something average and obvious like a skin or a car. Those things are natural items that have always been in SL. The GOM however was an idea created out of need for a service. Therefore in my book it makes it a unique user created idea.

In the end I am left with three question for LL;

Why did you change the TOS again?
What’s the reason for the timing that coincided with your LindeX program ?
How can I have full rights to my content when your new TOS says that you can take those creations for any and no reason without compensating me for my creations?

Mar
Lordfly Digeridoo
Prim Orchestrator
Join date: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 3,628
10-06-2005 13:41
I give up. Your'e all right, Linden Labs is going to rape and pillage your little face holes, and you're all going to like it, but you'll keep bitching about it.

This is most certainly The End of the World, and the Sky is finally Falling For Ever For Real Guys Look.

Continue bitching about the ToS, because it'll surely get changed.

Continue banging the death knell for Linden Labs and Second Life, continue crying over the loss of your IP rights, continue yelling about the supposed loss of privacy, money, guarantees, legal rights, and constitutional rights (fer fucks sake) that you are no doubt losing because of this new, evil, draconian ToS.

Continue spinning your wheels in the breeze.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have college to pay for.

Lf
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Cienna Samiam
Bah.
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,316
10-06-2005 13:43
From: Lordfly Digeridoo
Now if you'll excuse me, I have college to pay for.
Lf


Well, that certainly explains that. Look, when you get out in the real world and actually know what you're talking about.... nah, who am I kidding, I won't care then, either.
Lordfly Digeridoo
Prim Orchestrator
Join date: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 3,628
10-06-2005 13:45
From: Cienna Samiam
Well, that certainly explains that. Look, when you get out in the real world and actually know what you're talking about.... nah, who am I kidding, I won't care then, either.


Thanks, Dad. You're the best.

Can I have an increase in my allowance?
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Martin Magpie
Catherine Cotton
Join date: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,826
10-06-2005 13:47
From: Lordfly Digeridoo
I give up. Your'e all right, Linden Labs is going to rape and pillage your little face holes, and you're all going to like it, but you'll keep bitching about it.

This is most certainly The End of the World, and the Sky is finally Falling For Ever For Real Guys Look.

Continue bitching about the ToS, because it'll surely get changed.

Continue banging the death knell for Linden Labs and Second Life, continue crying over the loss of your IP rights, continue yelling about the supposed loss of privacy, money, guarantees, legal rights, and constitutional rights (fer fucks sake) that you are no doubt losing because of this new, evil, draconian ToS.

Continue spinning your wheels in the breeze.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have college to pay for.

Lf

That’s a tad bit dramatic. Until it affects you, then you don't care.

I strongly disagree with the "me" generation mentality tbh.

I would put money on the fact that the minute it does affect you , that you will be one of the ppl bitching and moaning the loudest.

Mar
Lordfly Digeridoo
Prim Orchestrator
Join date: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 3,628
10-06-2005 13:49
From: Martin Magpie
That’s a tad bit dramatic. Until it affects you, then you don't care.

I strongly disagree with the "me" generation mentality tbh.

I would put money on the fact that the minute it does affect you , that you will be one of the ppl bitching and moaning the loudest.

Mar


How, perchance, does this NOT affect me any more than you, Alty McAlterson? You = content creator, me = content creator.

Explain the difference.
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
10-06-2005 13:50
From: Martin Magpie
I strongly disagree with the "me" generation mentality


I find this statement very ironic. Expecting LL to cater to everyone's perceived individual rights and expectations isn't all about me me me?
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Martin Magpie
Catherine Cotton
Join date: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,826
10-06-2005 13:53
From: Lordfly Digeridoo
How, perchance, does this NOT affect me any more than you, Alty McAlterson? You = content creator, me = content creator.

Explain the difference.



Apparently it doesn't affect you because you choose to brush it under the rug. How so? Disreguarding everyones concerns tells me you don't care about this subject. Fine, don't care but at least allow those who do have concerns to voice them without your "fer fucks sake" remarks.

Thanks

Mar
Lordfly Digeridoo
Prim Orchestrator
Join date: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 3,628
10-06-2005 13:54
From: Martin Magpie
Apparently it doesn't affect you because you choose to brush it under the rug. How so? Disreguarding everyones concerns tells me you don't care about this subject. Fine, don't care but at least allow those who do have concerns to voice them without your "fer fucks sake" remarks.

Thanks

Mar


Fair enough. Screech away.
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Martin Magpie
Catherine Cotton
Join date: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,826
10-06-2005 13:59
From: Chip Midnight
I find this statement very ironic. Expecting LL to cater to everyone's perceived individual rights and expectations isn't all about me me me?


Excellent point Chip and on the surface I would agree and say it does seem a bit ironic. Now just below the surface I would have to say that the new TOS does affect the individuals rights but more so it will affect SL as a whole. If I and a few dozen other individuals decide as a result of the new TOS that we will not be uploading our best textures into SL I do believe that will affect the landscape of SL as a whole.

Untextured buildings, badly textured builds, that is not something I look forward to. As the landscape is already cluttered with shit builds and shit textures. Under the new TOS there is no way I would upload my best work.

When the end result could mean that hours weeks and months of my work can just be taken with zero compensaion I would say that was a very bad business decision on my part.

Remember "any or no reason what so ever"

Mar
LordJason Kiesler
imperfection inventor.
Join date: 30 May 2004
Posts: 215
10-06-2005 14:01
From: Chip Midnight
I find this statement very ironic. Expecting LL to cater to everyone's perceived individual rights and expectations isn't all about me me me?


Perhaps you are also correct, I should selflessly allow anything at all regardless of how it affects me, my friends, family, customers, and service providers. or in other words "everyone"
Aimee Weber
The one on the right
Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
10-06-2005 14:23
From: LordJason Kiesler
Again..
(just to get back on track, you know, the reason(s) for this thread)

1. LL has a new exchange service, if it was right or wrong.
LL has made it a point to add a lot of information about there exchange service to there TOS.
LL has made NO effort to add any gurentees about there exchange service to the TOS.
We are left with "By even using this service you agree that you can not hold us accountable for anything, even if we lose $9999.00 of youe money on our service"
They can't guarantee currency exchange rates - no one can - trying would be like shooting themselves in the head, point blank. In SL, currency is data, and they can't guarantee data - as much as they would like to - drives fail, backups get corrupted, people try and hack the system. Anybody who has chatted with the developers know LL does their best, and are always working to make it better. But there is no way they can guarantee it.

From: LordJason Kiesler
2. There is no and has been no return value on llGiveMoney,
This is eather complete lazyness and disregard for there customers, (or) intended as a roadblock.
I think the issue there is that it would break content. I believe they would need to add a new function call, and I guess the way money transfers in SL work, this is non-trivial. I’m pretty sure it’s on their list of things to do, but it’s not at the top. At the top are things like Stability - making sure content isn’t lost, and you don't crash. And Scalability - making sure the asset server doesn't burn when there are more of users. I think 1.7, is going to be a balance of new features with fixes.

From: LordJason Kiesler
3. Where are the fruts from the $3,000,000 investment?
I think the fruits are that compared to the past, SL is a more stable, more scalable product.

From: LordJason Kiesler
4. if targeting new residents, and making it easier for them is the goal then why are people under 45 days old restricted to..
"purchasing no more than US$20 worth of L$ per day and US$40 worth of L$ per month"
Thats a pretty damn tight restriction even if it is because the system is new.
My understanding is that new users present a higher potential for fraud (this is a constant concern when working in the virtual currency market). Adding some limits to the amount a new user can buy or sell helps prevent/reduce this.

From: LordJason Kiesler
5. They couldnt keep scripts safe, Whats to stop someone from sending false information to an unsuspecting persons viewer (if they ever actually put the exchange system IN the viewer)?
Scripts are much safer now, but you raise a good point. There is always a chance that SL's security will be breached, which makes comment #1 very hard to guarantee. After all, failures do happen. In a system as complex as SL, they are very very hard to predict.

From: LordJason Kiesler
6. And lastly "if they wanted to" they could take anything that you have created and get away with doing with it as they please, and you have given them permission to do so. Where are our rights? What should we do next?
This isn't new - you agreed to that the first time you entered second life. It's a CYA clause, sure, but it is necessary. If Linden Lab takes a screenshot of SL to use for their marketing, they need to have permission to use any content in it - BECAUSE you own it. Take an instance like the 2.0 render screenshots that showed about 1/2 of the world in a single shot. If they had not been granted permission beforehand, LL would have to ask EVERY single user who has builds featured in that image for permission.

Where are our rights ?

You have the right to choose to use SL. Anything you make in SL, you own. Yes, LL can use it, but they don't own it. This is an important distinction. You also have the right not to use SL if you think these Terms of Service are too stifling. Remember, Linden Lab is trying to make money. In this biz, content is king - LL has figured out how to leverage users to make content. In return, they have given up ownership of that content

What should we do next?

What do you do next - well, I would say make content - you can make money, and if you can show that it is valuable, LL will try to make it easier for people to do that. If you don’t want to, you can always try your hand at competing with LL. It is verrrrrry verrrrrry hard to do this, the path is littered with companies that didn't make it. Second Life is the biggest non-game Virtual World there has ever been, and people have been working at this for years.
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LordJason Kiesler
imperfection inventor.
Join date: 30 May 2004
Posts: 215
10-06-2005 14:39
From: Aimee Weber

I think the issue there is that it would break content. I believe they would need to add a new function call, and I guess the way money transfers in SL work, this is non-trivial.

Actualy as I said in the origonal post,

integer foo = llGiveMoney(some_key, some_amount); will compile.

It always returns 0 or FALSE, but its there. Either it was put there but they came up with a reason not to give it to us. or..... ?

From: Aimee Weber

I think the fruits are that compared to the past, SL is a more stable, more scalable product.

And don't forget Chat Bubbles!
Rogo Gorky
Registered User
Join date: 9 May 2005
Posts: 39
10-06-2005 15:07
Passing over all of those same old posts by the same old "stop whining" people, who use that phrase when they find a post that makes one think but can't think of anything to contribute.


Yeah, they're funny :)

But, I personally am on the fence on this subject. On one hand I have been more or less happy with SL and their policies... I am honestly not too worried with clauses that they may never ever enact.

But the fact it's in there for whatever reason does make it very important, and undeniably a valid point of concern.

Yes it may never come up. I can't imagine a linden yoinking away someone's super cool, innovative and profitable creation and making it their own. I also can't imagine needing to warn your customers that you *could* do that if the idea hasn't crossed the boardroom table, right?

Of course 99.999999% of creators don't have to worry about this. They are creating things with other people who are creating other things that are not "meta-copywritable"
Like Chip said with skins. Can't copywrite knees etc. Well most people are creating things that anyone even LL can imitate simply, and have no need to rip any one off. They can make knees, 30 prim cars, textures, and guns all day long. It's a good thing they aren't being imitated and all that, but they can be at any time and it's fair game just like in RL. It's not such a hair raising thing if LL made Linden brand skins that use a certain filter or brush that chip or any other skin designer uses.

But there is that .0000001% who are creating things that even the lindens didn't see coming. Things that no one really can imitate with any immediateness.

Say someone invents a perfect 2 way, no bottleneck way of server communication that just completely brings XML and such into the game. It causes no harm and only improves Second Life. It wouldn't be too hard to imagine the Lindens may be "inspired" by that and make the Lindserverex after examining this guy's construct. It would be disasterous for the creator.


Who knows if they would? Who knows why they are so particular about making sure we know that what we make belongs to LL and not really to us at all.

As I said, it doesn't concern me too much because of my niche in the game, I am not the super innovative guy that can't just make new stuff if I get ripped off. But in principle it seems to not promote our rights, but diminish them. I really would not mind hearing what a Linden has to say officially about this.

I am worried that I won't see that because it would either be:

"We can take your stuff away and make it ours, but we would never do that."
or
"We can and will and there is nothing you can do about it."

Either way, those responses would be something they'd have to stand by.

I'd like to hear an official comment.
Malachi Petunia
Gentle Miscreant
Join date: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 3,414
10-06-2005 17:17
From: Rogo Gorky
Yes it may never come up. I can't imagine a linden yoinking away someone's super cool, innovative and profitable creation and making it their own. I also can't imagine needing to warn your customers that you *could* do that if the idea hasn't crossed the boardroom table, right?
This has in fact already happened but it is an issue that is far better off left for dead (and no I'm not talking about GOM). If your curiosity on the matter is insatiable you can mail [email]MyAvatar.Name@gmail.com[/email] and I'll give you a short, nameless summation of the event from the perspective of a disinterested party who happened to be privvy to some of the specifics. This dead horse is out on the forums if you want to grovel for it and try to wade through the he said/she said.

But it has happened and none of the three parties involved have disputed that it occurred.
Ghostie Sneerwell
Registered User
Join date: 6 Oct 2005
Posts: 4
Ever seen a Ghost turn White
10-06-2005 17:23
I read this thread and thought I was back in that cranky, dank place I used to call my Virtual Home (Cyberchitty).

To the Orginal Poster; "Chit Happens"...but I like your spirit. ;)
Jauani Wu
pancake rabbit
Join date: 7 Apr 2003
Posts: 3,835
10-07-2005 12:08
(i got to page seven)

i don't see the value of this debate taking place between players. this debate should be between players and LL. can lordfly et al really know what LL is up to with this CYA lingo? no.

there is clearly a disjunction between how this game is marketed and the actual legal terms of service. there is such a disjunction that i wonder whether the marketing and how philip and cory waxing poetic for conferences and journalists might actually lay open a legal claim that would defy the TOS.

is the contradictory language here to stay, is it temporary CYA language to help LL get through the paid beta, what are the reasons behind it, what LL views as appropriate conduct within their newly confirmed rights, etc etc. these are questions for LL. it's not really a question of whether SL sucks or not or do we trust LL. of course everyone thinks SL is awesome and full of potential. thats why everyone is here and debates so passionately. it's really a question of WTF! i hope a bunch of you will raise that question this weekend.

for the time being there is no legal implication - the linden dollars value is mass hallucination and SL is a game. that doesn't upset me, i enjoy the game and the service. i'd just like LL to stop trying to confuse the matter.
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Jauani Wu
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Malachi Petunia
Gentle Miscreant
Join date: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 3,414
and they say that LL doesn't read the forums
10-07-2005 16:22
As recently posted in a few forums:
From: Kelly Linden
Linden Lab is working on a promotion for new Premium Residents, and we are looking for a few awesome inventory items to give away, especially ones that will add to the Premium experience. If your inventory item is selected, you will receive L$3000 and your company title will be featured in the name of the item. Ex: ACME Logo Tee.

We are looking for a variety of cool items, normally valued from L$500 - L$1000, to give to a variety of Residents. {snip for brevity}
So if I'm reading this properly, they are soliciting "contributions" of pre-fab builds, clothing collections, vehicles that the creator/merchant would normally sell for L$1000 per sale. In exchange for this contribution LL will give you the equivalent of 3 sales (L$3000 ~ US$10) and the "free advertising" of having it included in every newbie inventory.

Now this is not as dire as some in this thread have predicted, as LL could conceivably just appropriate these materials "for promotional purposes" as some have noted above. The direct compensation of 3 sales is rather pitiful, but it is better than L$0, and there is no way to put a valuation on the "free advertising". Indeed, this may be a fabulous deal for someone who is trying to break into some pretty saturated markets.

If you do choose to go this route, I strongly recommend that you request that these newbie starter kit materials be marked no-transfer unless you want everyone who wants one for free to have one (which you may want) but do know what you are buying into with this deal.

Interesting (or not).
Cienna Samiam
Bah.
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,316
10-08-2005 07:05
From: Jauani Wu
(i got to page seven)

i don't see the value of this debate taking place between players. this debate should be between players and LL. can lordfly et al really know what LL is up to with this CYA lingo? no.

there is clearly a disjunction between how this game is marketed and the actual legal terms of service. there is such a disjunction that i wonder whether the marketing and how philip and cory waxing poetic for conferences and journalists might actually lay open a legal claim that would defy the TOS.

is the contradictory language here to stay, is it temporary CYA language to help LL get through the paid beta, what are the reasons behind it, what LL views as appropriate conduct within their newly confirmed rights, etc etc. these are questions for LL. it's not really a question of whether SL sucks or not or do we trust LL. of course everyone thinks SL is awesome and full of potential. thats why everyone is here and debates so passionately. it's really a question of WTF! i hope a bunch of you will raise that question this weekend.

for the time being there is no legal implication - the linden dollars value is mass hallucination and SL is a game. that doesn't upset me, i enjoy the game and the service. i'd just like LL to stop trying to confuse the matter.


LL's inability to avoid confusing matters combined with the abovementioned disjunction were the two things that decided me against logging in or pursuing developing in Second Life.

Timely too, as I was on the verge of inking a deal in which myself and several RL peers were going to seriously invest in expanding 'Closer Look' and potentially open several other businesses, amongst which were a sponsored clothing line (i.e., a RL brand had agreed to a limited trial run in SL), an amusement park (also partnered with a RL name that would be recognizable), and a 'pop culture' magazine that would combine RL and SL.

Ah well.
Emma Soyinka
Got moo? o_o
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 218
10-08-2005 08:35
You know SL is the first game I've seen where people not only read the TOS but attach any actual importance to what it says. :p
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