Government Comes to SL

Anarchists don't believe in rights. Rights are largely individual privileges defined by governments to limit their own powers and avoid a backlash by the masses. Since these kinds of definitions contribute to the structure, power, and durability of institutions that anarchists abhor -- anarchists assume human beings are, and so they can act within personal moral boundaries. Rights are an irrelevant concept, unless an oppressive political order exists.



ed.sp.

i see that even though you bizarrely included anarchists in your government you totally shut out all the other fringy political ideologies. where's the voice of the libertarians, or the monarchists, or oligarchists? what about government by land barons? what about the people who want a dictatorship? is that the social democrats? hehe. or communists? is that the workers' party?

a political experiment i want to see in sl is communism. i want to see how that would work in a world where the only "resources" are luxuries.

Actually in this case ulrika is a bit of an 'also ran' considering the first user created charter that was formalized by the lindens is the lusk estates charter, which was ratified by the lindens about a month ago.

Oh jeez, you just love to rain on peoples itineraries.. err parades.


There was a reason the thread's title is what it is, and it wasn't for us old cynical types...

I don't mean to be a troll, while I am anti SL-govenment (excepting the Lindens) I'd love to see higher forms of organization than simple groups, so a voluntary test government could hold some benefit. But after reading the materials on your website, I'm not sure where the "government" really kicks in.

To me, it seems like a non-profit mall for consignment shops. I don't mean this in a pejorative sense, there are attractive malls in the real world, not just long boxes. And there are "malls" that are more artisan coops combined with studio space. So you are focusing on acrhitecture and internal infrastructure, which is within the purview of a mall owner, but with a bias towards community than profits. And rather than a corporate governance structure the project is democratic, more coop. REI has the same structure, but no one calls it government.

Again, I'm happy to see folks trying out different ways to run large projects. But commissions and a firmer aesthetic with a coop governance structure seems far from "government" to me. Given the verbiage about Social Democracy and such I'd expect more state involvment.

One feature you mentioned was "Elected council to handle user and artisan conflicts." Now this is where I could see the project moving beyond private organization to government, civil and criminal laws. But I'm not sure what you folks have in mind here. The "user" role in particular. Is this non-members, members but non-artisans?

Again, not meant to be a slam, the project (particularly the building to my taste) is cool and might even help chart new territory in large group management in SL. But that seems more "governance" to me than "government". But curious as to how it goes.

It is a starting point. Ulrika eludes to the fact she envisions this government on a larger scale at some point. She tried it on a grander scale, was met with alot of opposition and decided the way to go about it was to start small, seems logical to me.

Fair enough. I guess some of the vagueness is left for the group to decide democratically than having all initial conditions set by the original project founders, for which I can see the point.

Obviously you've decided to state opinions before finding out the facts....any party is allowed the more the better...If you want to see the communist party thrive...join the experiment and start a communist party no ones stopping you.

And again I included the Anarchist party as an Ironic side note....

course i did, it's the intenet forum way.

as in a joke? if that's the deal it's pretty hard to tell from reading Ulrika's first post that it's serious at first and not serious at the last. seems a lil bit unwise to be joking about some factions while you're trying to be taken seriously. it's like "come join the joke party. we'll like totally include you in the goverment hehehe". that's if "ironic side note" means you weren't as serious about that as the social democrat stuff.

*Cheers for Urlika*

My political philosophy falls squarely in the "social contract" camp - you give up some rights in order to have others protected by a government (I give up my right to kill you, and get protected from killers). The other side of the coin is that for the government to be legitamate, I must have a choice in whether I want to participate (and give up my rights). Thus, Urlika et al are doing this the right way - no one is forced to adhere to the constitution that they have created, but that constitution might be good for some people. The more people it is good for, the more people will agree to follow it. The more people, the more powerful the government. Now, unless they decide to create an army and march on Gibson, I am totally cool with this, even though I have no interest in joining it.

No siree, I am part of The Movement (tm) a very strict SL theocracy.

bbc

You'll leearn as you read more and more of Ulrika's post that you will NEVER have a clue if shes serious or not. She did include three parties because those are the ones that are active as of now.

As for the joke...yes on my part it was...it's my party...I named it and told everyone theres a new party.

I am serious about the government and I see my role there as a check to the other parties and I'm not the social democratic type.

You should do a search on government in the forum and see the massive debate over if there should be one in SL. You'll see where the dominos fell. I was a very loud supporter of no government. The fact that there was to be an experimental government intrigued me and I wanted to make sure my voice and those that shared my opinions were counted. Plus it gives me reason to argue with Ulrika over our opposing views. Maybe she'll change my mind on some things or I might just change hers...

Herein lies my problem with SL government.

No one can kill me (unless I invite it by going to a war zone), break into my house or vehicle, or subvert my rights. One may argue; "What if a segment of the population bitches enough about an issue that it causes LL to change a policy(s) which affects others who are not of the same view?" Then do the same thing, lobby within the government we already have, LL.

I see the argument that we "will have to adopt a government, because inevitably there will be one anyway" as a farce. Does the internet have a government? (other than those of the countries it's utilized in) Is it doomed because it doesn't? Hardly, and if SL is to become the 3d extension of the web, it doesn't need one either. No amount of beaurocracy is going to make it better and in my opinion can only hinder it's creative nature.

As a socio-political experiment, localized SL government is fine. Some may point out that places like Slate already have governments but are they really anything more than a housing association? Are they really a government by definition? Hardly.

The day I have to follow rules created by other players, I will pack up shop and mosey down the road. That isn't intended as a threat, just a factual statement. Believe me, as much as I love SL, it will hurt, however, I will never subject myself to the whims of special interest, to do so would be to tell LL they are less capable of running the show as creators of this world than those who inhabit it.

testify! if people want to play government in their own land that's cool, have fun etc. don't for a second think all of sl needs a player government though. *shiver*

Again this is an experiment conducted in its own sim...if you wish to take part knock yerself out ...if not don't.

" We need a bureaucracy because we're creating the infrastructure for something that will hopefully be much larger."


"It sounds like I've now convinced you why we need a government and now you've moved on to questioning whether or not we have the correct future vision and boundary conditions to launch a functioning government."

"This was the subject of an enormous thread a few months ago, after Robin asked us if we were interested in government."

The fact that this thread isn't in the Neualtenberg Projekt's group forum is indicative of the desires expressed in the above quotes.

Why do we need government in SL?

We need governments is SL to promote social justice, to arbitrate user conflicts, and to maximize productivity (to name a few).

An example of how a government could promote social justice is by preventing the exploitation of the working class by the owning class. Specifically, I seek to provide an alternative to paying mall owners high fees for retail space. I seek to bind artisans together in cooperatives such that the quality of goods available to all SL citizens increases. Further, I wish to provide artisans with high-quality infrastructure such as vendors with online reporting for no cost. Mall owners benefit financially by dividing artisans and charging them individually for retail space. All of SL benefits by supporting cooperatives which enhance the quality and number of goods that they have to choose from.

An example of how a government could arbitrate user conflicts is by monitoring events so the Lindens don't have to and by enforcing covenants to prevent neighbor disputes. For instance I have a lovely home up on a mountain in Seefeld that had a spectacular view. That is until someone dropped a 20 meter tall vampire-themed club right in front of it. When individuals join a city, they accept the agreement that they'll be flexible with their structures with the knowledge that they will receive help if an ugly structure pops up. Think about this: without a government it is invariable the talented builders who take the most pride in their structures and surroundings who suffer at the hands of those who do not. I want to protect those talented builders.

An example of how a government could maximize productivity is by dividing the workload associated with a large project between several groups of people. For instance, in the city, we have one branch of the government working on events, the other on building objects for events or for sale, and the other monitoring events (no Lindens required). Thus the government is not just there to pass laws, it's there to serve the citizens of the city.

~Ulrika~

No no. BuhBuhCuh said it perfectly. It's volunteer only for those who want to give up some rights in order to have others protected by a government.

I posted in this forum because I'm looking for interested parties to join in not to foreshadow your impending slavery.

~Ulrika~

I am particularly glad that he posted in this forum. The content is interesting, thought provoking, and adds a fascinating layer of depth and complexity to SL.

Also, with all the constant bickering in these forums, I think it's high time we had a way of resolving our disputes without having to turn to public whinge fests..

No, the fact is other people are being sought to become part of the experiment...nothing more...nothing less

Oh boy. Working class? Owning class? Care to define that more? Are people being forced to work for the rich in SL? Is there someone stitching tennis shoes together for substandard pay? "Your world, your imagination" still holds true, unless a secret society of endenturement has arisen that i am not aware of. Because some folks decide to use SL to make some spare change certainly does not mean the rest of us become a working class. Show me exploitation and I may change my mind a tad. The beauty of SL is that no one can exploit you.

As far as the part about someone plopping a club down in front of your house I quite agree that it's a shame. However, I think asking LL to zone future sims is a better way to address that versus an association telling us what we can and cannot build. If we buy into something like that it opens avenues of abuse by those instituting the rules.

As far as needing a government to increase productivity goes I have seen many full sim projects beautifully done with no government. Heck, 99% of them.

So as I said above, it's fine to experiment but a SL wide player run government would be the worst thing for SL, then we will see some exploitation.

You're missing my point, as far as I can tell, this project is being undertaken with the hope in mind that it will be the seed of an SL wide government.

It was stated that this was a status report on the project, now its a membership drive?

Very pleased to see that Ulrika's project is underway and working to the degree that she and others involved want it to.
Even MORE pleased to see that it can co-exist, in it's own space without intruding on my enjoyment of Second Life.
It's pretty much what the majority of posters in the original mammoth political thread were hoping for......ie those that want to have government in their SL, having it.....whilst not infringing on the rights of the rest to enjoy not being governed!.
Perfect.
Enjoy.

It is a status report...it was also posted here as this is a Linden sponsored project and since we are getting closer to elections people should know about the project and have a chance to become part of it. We aren't saying this is the SEED of things to come...none of us know what will come of it .

You see the experiment would fail if it were comprised soley of people who belong to one faction or belief...The more people involved makes the experiment more credible and noteworthy.

Nolan, Reread the anti government threads and see if you can find anyone more staunchly against a government in SL than me. I became part of this project because I wanted to make sure it was diverse and held many points of view...in the end thats all this is ...an experiment...not a conspiracy.

For it to be a conspiracy there would have to be information withheld. I don't see that here. In Ulrika's posts, especially the one entitled *Why do we need government in SL?* it's apparent to me she envisions this as the precursor to an SL government and still wants that. Am I missing something?

How is this Linden Sponsored?

If it is, I am *extremely* prejudiced against this.