Is LL Subsidizing Our Exploitation?

Just walk away folks. Trolls can't argue with themselves.

~Ulrika~

Let me put this in Brooklyn terms ---

Stop being such a schmuck.

That is more than one difference - and the second difference is key. In speaking of the unfairness of not paying up front, then you cannot also make the comparison to something that can be sold to recoup costs. If others had to pay up front and still could not resell their land, then it would be an equal comparison - though the deed on the land is still an issue as well, since purchased land is under no restrictions of build style or length of lease.

What Newfie said...Thank you. That's what Kendra, Pendari, and Ulrika have to answer. For you to post a long meandering evasive reply to me to make it seem like the problem was that I hadn't read up on your group is downright duplicitous. What you have to answer is...What Newfie said.

And how unfair to compare a social democracy talk-shop with maybe houses and paths laid out that you received for free, for the cost of only rental maintenance, with Neverland, whose citizens worked for thousands of hours collectively to produce beautiful content and entertainment. What is the entertainment or content enrichment in your village? Bolsheviks hanging landowners from the lamp-posts?

I can't help thinking that if you were landowners yourselves, you wouldn't be inciting this hatred, asking for revolutionary changes proposed by only the vanguard elite and not even understood by the masses, or living off the Lindens in quite this fashion.

And didn't Neverland pay for their land up front -- aren't they a group that already existed? Maybe they didn't? I'm new so I didn't follow the story. So that the deal they got is actually the opposite of your deal! They paid out the wazoo in upfront land cost OR in up-front design and labour costs -- and loads and loads of labour involving picky work --, and all that they got was a 3-month waiver of tier? They help to sell the game by being a tie-in on the front page -- and all they got was that lousy t-shirt? They didn't even get dwell! Then they have to destroy it all because it takes up sims that the Lindens could be selling for real money.

A fleeting Disneyland concocted out of the exploited labour of the creative intelligentsia, and a subsidized social democracy of inciters of hatred against the kulak class. What a game! I should have stayed in Russia...

Ok to simplfy and get back on track here is a statment from a Linden (Haney Linden to be precise) Thread reply #116 in reference to the whole deal with NBerg. If that doesnt answer the questions about NBerg and get us back on track to debate "ULRIKA'S" commentary then I dont know what will.


/120/08/27509/2.html

You see that part I put in bold?

That was the only part of that that answered his initial question.

But of course the pot can call the kettle black...

Idealism is the noble toga that political gentlemen drape over their will to power.
-Aldous Huxley

I have been very straightforward with my answers. I am happy to clarify, but I never intentionally "slight" anyone. You do not know me, so that is understandable.



Yes, we are paying fees, so yes we did/do pay for something.



No. As has been stated, outside the land being set aside for us to use our teirs on to buy, there is no extra discount.



The land was set to the side. We had to meet a certain amount of teir donations in order to have the land held, but did not have to pay for the land such as at auction or from a player. Kendra addressed this already I believe.



No such thing has ever been claimed by anyone. This is a false statement.



We paid no "purchase price" in Lindens or USD. Our price comes in different forms.



Not everyone in the group has to donate land. We do have to have enough donated to meet the goal, but thankfully there are those of us who were able to donate enough so that we could meet those goals even if not everyone in the group could contribute. Some of us had to sell our land in other areas so that we could donate. Within the structure of the project, we have ways in place that members can contribute and receive benefits even if they are not able to donate land. And again, as I stated in my last post, there are other ways around the current SL system besides just what we have accomplished with our project.



Personally this is the first time I've seen the question presented in a straightforward way. I think now you have your answer. My main response being that we very much have a price to pay for this land (outside our monthly tiers). Just because we did not pay an initial fee in L$ or USD$ it is wrong to assume we are not paying the price in other ways.



Much has happened in just the last 3 weeks. 4 months from now things are going to be very different. I just state that flat out incorrect statements are going to be called out.



LOL. Sorry. This is so untrue I just had to laugh. No offence.



Half a sim. We are not completely a Social Democracy. Ulrika is entilted to her opinions on SL issues even if others in the project disagree. She does not reflect the project. We are all individuals here. Though in my last post I did state how I felt the other two posters gave valid reasons for at least a semi connection. And I agreed with them.



Fine with me. The project is quite open.



Then why the need to ask again?



The project is open to everyone. And we are not just a Social Democracy.



Despite your insulting remarks, I will say again, this project is open to everyone.



We don't. And again I state, it is far to obvious to me that you don't really know anything about the people in this project. Your claims almost state we are of one mind and/or are blindly following one person. You are so grossly mistaken that it just makes it very hard for me to believe your claims about knowing the details of this project.

Maybe you should come visit. I might be biased by the hundreds of hours I've put in working on the place --but I think what we have so far is quite charming looking.

Shadow I ploughed through miles of that link and couldn't find anything from Haney. Could you just cut and paste? I saw a lot that made my hair stand on end though.

For one, I see that there is a rough player consensus that they don't want a government system of any kind, and a rough understanding that those playing government on their lots won't go outside the bounds with those theories and philosophies they're cooking up in their talk shops. If they have an idea of say, taxation, or banning critical speech, of progressive taxes of content-providers or content-buyers, they can play in their own little sandbox.

What's troubling is that this rough consensus seems to have broken down, with Ulrika coming on here and inciting hatred of the landowning class, making it appear that they are exploiters who don't even get profit "commensurate with their work" (Gak, that's Lenin. Marx used to say, "To each according to his needs, from each according to his ability." It was Lenin that perverted that, if you will, by saying, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his work." See the difference???

How did it come about that Ulrika wanted to leave her social democracy sandbox and come out and affect the rest of the game? Maybe it was just a discussion, but in reality, it was a concerted campaign complete with incitement, closing off discussion when it suited one, and character assassination.

Prokofy Neva, I gave the link and the thread number that appears on the top right hand side of each post it was 115 not 116 that was my error but if you seen 116 just above it was Haney's Response.

I dont cut and past as I leave the evidence where it cannot be tampered with.

that way I cannot be accused of tampering with quoting text.

Shadow

Ok. Then Bob the magnificent builder from Slate, well, if he has any opinions on issues in SL, he just better not come out here and state them. He must only talk to those in Slate because otherwise he is just going to get the Lindens to bow to his wishes. Oh, and Pituca and Jai, sorry you two. But you can only disscuss issues in SL with Taber residents. And sorry Mistress, you are so alluring and persuasive, you need to keep all your opinions about SL in Midnight City. You too Eltee! Because we just know that if you come out with opinions about SL outside Luskwood, the next thing you know we are going to have fur covered signs mandatory in every sim! Oh, and you Ryen. Keep your ideas inside Taratus only. Because NONE of you is allowed to speak up on SL issues because you happen to be a part of a group project.

I'm sorry, but if people cannot see how proposterous this line of thought is then I feel there is no way simple me is going to be able to explain it.

Reitsuku,

<<On the contrary, weasle wording is exactly what it is. Weasle wording isn't an insult, in this case,>>

Well, there's no such thing as weasle wording. However, weasel wording is definititely an insult. It is implying that the person you are talking about is trying to lessen the impact of what they actually mean by making the words they use very inoffensive. It is the next best thing to accusing someone of lying. That's why politicians use the term all the time. They can call someone a liar without actually using the term.

And thinking about it, that's a pretty good example of weasel wording.

Thank you for correcting my spelling error. Certainly my post was a horrible mass of confusion with that in there.

It's not an insult. I stated what was being done. And, in this context, it doesn't mean exactly what you stated: It's more of an attempt to diguise what is being done than an attempt to make it innofensive.

And thats what I saw happening.

Its no more of an 'insult' than saying a post that was full of exagerations was full of exagerations. What else can you call it, if that is what you see it as?

Ok, I probably won't follow this post beyond today...at least that is my hope.

I just joined the Neualtenburg Project, and I don't know the whole back story, and I don't know what makes Ulrika SO controversial. What I see here, though, is a whole lot of whining over nothing.

Have you ever heard the saying, "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em?" Well, that's what I recommend. Either come check us out, and hang out with us, and see what's going on, OR create your own project and propose it to the Lindens!

Why waste all this energy complaining about a half-sim experiment? It's not like it's going to take over SL, or encroach on your happiness.

Get over it already.

LoL - talk about short attention spans!

Uhhh.. Rock, did you even read this thread?? Originally, it wasn't about 'the projekt', but was about Ulrika suggesting that all large land owners are being subsidized by the smaller land owners, how unfair it is, and she provided suggestions to fix it.

Next time, before telling everyone to 'get over it', try reading the thread.

Juro, his "Get over it statement" was in direct response to the issues within this thread that *did* deal with Neualt project. He was not talking about the other discussion (which this thread started about).

That is precisely correct. I was merely speaking to many of the posts I did read on this thread that whined about Neualtenburg, which really had nothing to do with the point of this thread.

OK OK.. Rock, nevermind my statement then.

You are attempting to answer the "when did you stop beating your wife" question. It is clear that no matter how many times this is answered clearly, it is not the smoking gun that it needs to be, so it is ignored. * sigh *

Please dont boil a legitimate question down like that, Cris. It's exceedingly disrespectful to dismis a valid point like that.

Pendari answered the question quite nicely. Kendra eventually managed to get the point across too. It's not the unaswerable question that some would like to make it out to be. It is a simple question. Was there an initial payment of money to Linden Labs for the land, or not.

The answer was given. Issue solved. It wasn't dismissed - when the answer was finally given. I don't see how it needed multiple pages to get the answer, but apparently it did. And now that we have it, there isn't a need to continue hostilities. They weren't needed in the first place, but...

shrug

I have answered it multiple times without dismissing it, but I agree with Kendra. You took her to task about not answering a binary question that was impossible to answer as asked, because the yes and no position were about two different things. Do you think your posts have not been hostile and dismissive? It is exceedingly disrepectful to refer to someone as using weasle wording, implying they are trying to evade something when it has been answered very concisely multiple times.

It is clear that the angle all along was to say "Look they didn't have to pay for their land!". When it was pointed out that you only pay for land you "own" in the terms of Second Life (regardless of the Linden's ability to take it away), that answer did not fit. It was all rinse and repeat, and there is nothing even to see here. The group received no special favors, no special discounts, and Ulrika's position about exploitation is not invalidated by Nealtenburg having the land that they currently do.

I am sorry if you took my post as being dismissive of you, because it was not intended to be. It was very frustrating to watch this question being asked and answered, and then asked again with accusations of it not having been answered, or evaded.

The problem is that while you, Kendra, and others see the question as being a complex one, I do not. The only question I have ever been interested could be answered as a single word.

Do I think I have been hostile and dismissive? Not really, and absolutely not, in that order. Believe me, I have restrained myself from posting a number of things because they would serve no purpose other than to be inflamatory. It is not in my nature to provoke for the purposes of provocation. That said, I will not silence myself from saying something I percieve to be factual because someone may take offense at it. IE, using the term weasel wording. I honestly see that statement as exactly that.

And no, I have not been dismissive. When I got a strait answer, I was perfectly content. I never, despite what you suggest in your last post, dismissed a strait answer because it wasn't what I wanted. I never dismissed someone by calling them a troll and saying their opinion didn't matter. I never boiled someones post down to nothing but a personal attack. I never made a post that served no purpose but to personally attack someone. I wanted a fact clarified because I honestly felt it was very relevent to the initial topic.

And lets be clear about something: When I used the (apparently now infamous) term "Weasel wording", there had been only Kendra's single answer to the question. It has not, as it has been now, answered very concisely multiple times. That said, I still do not retract my choice of terminology. I see what she was doing in the post I was responding to as weasel wording. I still do. That you do not see that is not my problem, nor do I really care. I'm not going to say it is a clear and concise answer, because no matter how many times I read it, it does not appear to be such to me.



That may be true of some other posters in this thread. It was not mine.



And I'm the one who gets attacked and called dismissive?

Look, here is my position:

I reject the notion that because one does not have the ability to resell the land one builds on, or have full land management utilities, that one is not being given land. It is land with strings attached, certainly. But it is still a very signifigant thing to be given land gratis with any amount of strings attached. It is not something that is generaly availible to people as an option. You can call it "renting" or "owning" or "access" or whatever the hell you want to call it. The end result is a lot of land that you have use of for your own devices and can build a semi-permanant creation on to further whatever your goals may be, be they fun, profit, or philosophy.

It is not a question of her answer not "fitting my expectations". She was not providing the answer to the question I was interested in. I would have been equally have happy with her response if she had said "Yes, I payed 10 dollars for it", or whatever. I just wanted an answer regarding the existance or lack thereof of an initial fee for the land.



You and I will have to agree to disagree, here. I think the fact that Nealtenburg was given (To use I guess the term you want me to use) access to land without an initial fee is quite relevent.

*errrrg. Edited to fix assorted typos and a sloppy quotation...