Is LL Subsidizing Our Exploitation?

Ok, a couple of things. Ulrika had people fired up long before Neualtenburg was a word that any of us could even begin to misspell. She came in with a bang and has been a freakishly tall lightning rod ever since. What has raised her profile as part of Neualtenburg is the inability for people to separate her opinions from that of a project which she helped found, so they level all of their "the sky is falling we don't want government hell no we won't go" hysteria onto the group. The entire group is constantly painted with the same broad brush, which is in a word, stupid. Everyone involved has different views, voices, and opinions. While we are friends, I am the polar opposite on many topics with Pendari and Ulrika. Kendra scares me so I just agree with her or she hits me.

I happen to be very much a capitalist and am definitely not interested in or supportive of socialism, marxism, or commmunism (it is interesting how people continue to raise the rhetorical noise level with references to such things). On the subject of the land barons, I have spoken out about abuses of the land market in the past - there are tangible example of things that did occur (land tier fee skirting, price gouging, etc..). I however think that overall the problems have subsided by the market settling itself out, and by some disciplinary actiion when needed to address some inconsistencies. I don't share Ulrika's views on this subject, and you know what, I am in the group too.

On the topic of calling something disinformation to challenge dissent, communism, etc....there is also a major difference between stating facts, and just putting out rhetoric and sound bytes that get repeated enough to take on the force of the truth, without actually being true. The Bush campaign was a prime example of such a technique, and its dangers. Continuing to somehow make the associations with communism, Nazis, Marxists, etc... in an attempt to paint some sinister motive on the group does not change the fact that several statements made about the group in this thread and many others were factually false. The only thing endangered by facts is rhetoric, the very rhetoric posted by yourself and others which has not withstood much scrutinity, in spite of long winded protests to the contrary.

On the topic of inciters, the amount of hatred and intolerance that has been levelled at this group could not begin to match any small political voice the group has. On one hand, people claim it is a pointless experiment in neutered government, while on the other hand point to it and say it is having some dangerous effect on the whole of SL. Which is it, oh bi-polar bears? Either it is a little project for those who want to make snow angels and play government, or it is the Third Reich marching through the sims raping and pillaging as they go. You can't have it both ways. Oh wait, many try to. Silly me.

The term asshat is not specific to SL, and has a separate meaning from asshole. Asshat is closer to meaning a pointless idiot, whereas asshole denotes a jerk. Mind you, the lines can blur as many demonstrate, but for sake of argument, 'tis why you were called an asshat I suppose. It is hardly some secret code and group-speak lol. You may want to refer to the ever useful urbandictionary.com the next time you are unclear of the "lingo". I'll save you a click:

1. asshat

One who has their head up their ass. Thus wearing their ass as a hat. Asshat

Nolan,

<<Apparently he Prokofy doesn't like you and is within ToS bounds in rating you as such.>>

Yep. But some would say it's still the action of an asshat.

Free asshat armband to the first 100 asshats to respond. I gave myself the first one.

I wasn't debating that.

Oh, if it wasn't 2 a.m. I'd have so much more to post....

...but it is, and so I'll keep it to this.

Prokofy, you have ranted and raved about people inciting hatred against the 'land baron class'. However, all I see in your post is the inciting of hatred against the 'leftists and Marxists'. Your words are more full of hatred-inciting rhetoric than anything said by any N'berg member in this thread. I can almost visualize you now, red in the face with apoplexy, yelling at the screen.

However, the ironic thing is that I doubt your words have increased any hatred of N'berg one whit. In fact, I suspect that they have increased hatred of.... well, I'll leave that an an exercise for the reader

Oh, and while we're having a history lesson, check out posts by Alby Yellowknife and blaze Spinnaker for examples of what happens when extreme right-wing views become emotional issues on the forums.

First off, calling someone who voted for Bush *twice* a leftist is just very funny to me. I'm actually a libertarian/independent. I vote for who I feel is best suited to serve our country. The fact that you continue to think everyone in the Neualtenburg project is a leftist is just very funny to me.

Dead horse reference. Well, I am Sicilian and so the Godfather was the first thing that popped into my mind as you made me feel like we are some mob of a group out to run everything. My reference was in regards to how I thought you would feel waking up in the morning because of how you painted us. There is no grand scheme here. And no one person is going to change the face of SL.

Lisse, I'm not at all apoplectic, I'm laughing. I'm laughing because when someone incites like Ulrika, most of the people seeing it don't even understand that she is borrowing from the Bolshevik notebook, and has an agenda that is hidden under the tip of her iceberg, the outlines of which might be indicated by just a wacky scheme like progressive taxation, but are insidious nonetheless because they involve a full-blown idelogical system with many unattractive features. She has come on here inciting the masses against the landbaron class, and as far as I'm concerned, that's not OK -- class hatred is not on for me in a game like this and I will fight it. Racial hatred -- getting Europeans to roll their eyes and illustrate contempt for Americans that 'don't get it' is also not on for me.

Don't confuse fighting someone else's extreme ideologiocal zeal, incitement of hatred, and racism, with becoming extreme, hateful, and racist myself. I don't see where you could find proof of that.

I'm not the one proposing a scheme to eliminate racists, social democrats living off the Lindens, and other assorted leftwiners from the game, or to penalize them, or to end their special deals, or to do anything of the sort. I don't care what they do, and I'm not calling for the game to be changed to remove them from the landscape.

Meanwhile, they get to agitate and hoot and holler and call for land-barons and large group project directors to be taxed and penalized and their existing arrangements to be removed from the game? Huh? How come they get to do that?

If you want to characterize what I'm doing as incitement of hatred against leftists, that's your call, but I wonder how you could back up that claim. Have I said anything untrue about their views, as articulated here on the forum? I've merely challenged their views and labeled them as Marxists -- and I haven't heard a peep out of them to the contrary. Have I said "fuck you" to any of them, as they have to me? Have I called them an "asshat," whatever that is in the kewl beta lingo?

When I said that Ulrika has met her match, and has probably never had anyone challenge her in this way, I don't mean that no one else has ever debated or fought her. I can see that she loves to stir the pot and has a lot of enemies and people who are just plain annoyed. What I doubt, however, is that anyone has ever challenged her on thorough-going ideologiocal grounds. It's not personal. I don't know her. I don't know the group she's in. But I do recognize the signs of a "bore from within" ideological agenda, and I will call them as such, and push back. She has yet to answer the basic question about whether she holds the Marxist tenet about finite value that must be distributed -- even forcibly -- or whether she holds the liberal tenet that value can be created. This is important for a game like this because the hidden ideologies behind the game structures have long-term and widespread consequences.

Again, what I did was push back -- and I'm quite away that when you do that with people with very ardently-held Marxist type views, they will incite still further, getting the community to look at you as a hater, an extreme right-winger, blah blah. That you're so willing to jump to that bandwagon and characterize me as some right-wing red-neck is just plain silly. I voted for Kerry in RL. But what does it matter what I did in RL? People often confuse anti-communism with some kind of extreme right-wing view because communists/leftists/Marxists are always ready to tar anybody who comes along and criticizes their ideological tenets as "extreme right-wingers" to discredit them. My critique of Marxism is a liberal one, however, as you can see. And if you read my posts, you'll see that I didn't applaud land speculation and land churning and the enrichment of a land-baron class, I said that the alternative was to build individual player solidarity in group projects that relieve tier -- a positive grassroots construction from the ground up among players, rather than a direct attack from the top down against land-owners.

Pendari, I haven't characterized Neualtenberg as leftist -- I've neven even visited it and I've only discussed it superficially with a member. That it is kooky goes without saying when we see that its members are prepared to say that they are going to form a virtual government/society and speak to the UN as an equal, and when they are implying that Bush or somebody should listen to them as some kind of "state". They can role-play that way if they want, but then I'll role-play right back as a liberal who calls them kooks.

Find me a place in my posts where I have characterized the entire community in some way -- what I've done is a) characterized those posters from Nberg as leftists because they promote the anti-land-baron and progressive-tax view of leftists and b) made the distinction between them and their community, but raised questions about how that community can continue to get away with this sleight of hand, where they let some members be stalking horses to attack others, why they hide behind the screen of "diverse views."

Wrong. From her very first post she ever made attempting to do this she was saw for what she is and labled as such. Nobody sees any point in repeatedly stating the obvious, though. We have debated her views, but that serves no real use as she doesn't care about our views any more than we care about hers. She has been challenged soley on the basis of her ideology more times than anyone can count or cares to remember. It's old hat by this point, and frankly, most of us have come to the conclusion that she just isn't worth the time to either hate or debate more than in passing, particularly since her ideas are so easily debunked as a general rule (As this thread showed), or else have no impact on the day-to-day fabric of SL, no matter how much she may attempt to say that they do. (Or, occasionaly, both at once).

Further asshat isn't beta lingo. It is, as far as I know, a farkism.

Yes, I fully agree with Cristiano that people should not confuse Neualtenburg team with Ulrika. And I also want add nobody should confuse Ulrika's person with her political concepts. I enjoy Neualtenburg architecture, it is lovely And political experiments is great thing in SL for people to learn.

Having said this I so completely and thoroughly disagree with Ulrika's idea of tax system, economy and her interpretation of social democracy it could not be worse. Yes, this may come as surprise to some people: But I am actually one person who has voted for a social democratic government during recent real life elections. I have family who are even members of the Communist Party of China. And none of them would agree with what Ulrika suggest here.

The real world moved on. Social democrats and even communist parties have learned the rules of economy and market. In Germany we have social democrats who reduce taxes and increase competition, in China you have communist party who now even invites business people as party members. To be social and help the weak or to give power to the people can work very well with free market.

However, putting roadblocks in front of business or taxing people to death is failure only those who live 20 years in the past still favor. Or maybe somebody who live in America who has an outdated or simplistic understanding of one political movement that is mostly native to countries in Europe and Asia. And taxing those for whom Second Life is one job to pay for gameplay of those who might earn one fortune in RL job is not only wrong, but completely anti-social. Not to mention concept of double taxation. This is like taxing working poor people in India to finance villa of Bill Gates.

I suggest to Ulrika that she founds the Social Democratic Party of America (after she understands what social democracy actually is) and first clean up social injustice and messed up system in her own RL country, before trying to impose tax and injustice on German social democracts playing SL, using the misleading label of German social democracy. Sorry, but this all suck so much, it is like somebody in Europe start selling pee under the label of Coca Cola.

Cristiano, thank you for enlightening me on some of the past lore of SL around this character Ulrika and Nberg.



There's always the issue of whether you should ignore a lightning-rod type player like this, so as not to fuel their antics, or whether you should attack them head on, or push back when they mount inciteful attacks in the community.

I favor pushing back -- hard. It means that most people then view you as an annoying lightning-rod, but it doesn't matter. Because the purpose of arguing against a figure like Ulrika is never to convince her herself -- that's beyond hope -- but to appeal to all her hangers-on, sympathizers, and just the generally clueless, who swallow her rhetoric whole and never question what her motives or actions are and what they entail.



I'm afraid I don't buy this. I don't see any mass stampede to this discussion of other Nberg members saying, oh, dear, there's our Ulrika again, there she goes, inciting campaigns against land-barons and Bushies, what can you do, she's one of us, but of course, doesn't speak on behalf of the community. I see 2 Nberg residents who appear to agree with her on this discussion, but where are the rest? I'm not convinced yet that Nberg is this tolerant, diverse, free-flowing philosophical community when I read all kinds of other scare stories about the suppression of dissent, etc.

Seems to me if you are going to have an experiment in player governance with a set of ideas governing economic relations in particular, you need to have more or less a broad consensus as to whether you will follow laissez-faire capitalism, liberal democracy and a mixed economy, social democracy, democratic socialism, communism -- whatever. I think group making a claim to such a public posture -- especially on the Linden's dime -- needs to sort itself out and speak more with one voice, and not let some members be loose canons on the deck, or serve as stalking horses to bash other groups of players.


I'm puzzled as to whether you are a member of Nberg or what "involvement" means.



Great. Then you realize that you can't just let someone on an ideological rampage inspired by one of these belief systems run rampant over a forum without a challenge.


I have found that in America, people are really, really scared of political labels, of analyzing ideological positions, of characterizing belief systems. In Europe and Central Asia, where there are numerous parties and competing belief systems, this type of rating and refinement and labeling is normal and natural. Americans, who have only two parties, and feel like they always have to demonstrate everything is a big happy bi-partisan family, hate having to call something "Marxist" or "leftwing" not only because they hate labels and splitting of any barn-raising type of communal effort, but because often, unconsciously, they have absorbed some of these knee-jerk leftwing views and just automatically hate anything that smacks of "right-wing" to them. It can often happen that politically someone is conservative, but culturally, they have adopted all the trappings of the leftwing chic.

I'm not afraid of somehow raising the noise level by calling an ideological system as what it is -- I didn't unilaterally come on here to do this, but once again, I pushed back when others came on to do this.



You seem to be saying that there aren't really any major issues with the auction system, that you can be in the same group with Ulrika happily, as if ideological differences don't matter, or that they should be smoothed over as irrelevant for the sake of an ostensibly higher purpose like building a planned community.

But she's calling for the game to be changed, and using the platform of a Linden-subsidized project to do so. That may be a mere experimen, but I think it's helpful to push back. She draws on a lot of inchoate and unreflected hatred I hear all the time against land-barons and mall-owners. Many rank-and-file players hate the for-sale signs, the insane prices, the mall sprawl, and they are just gunning for the class of people they see responsible for this. They don't understand that by their constant consumerism and their valuation of shopping and their valuation of freedom to build what you want on your own land, they are fueling the very process they hate. Someone like Ulrika who is more intelligent than most can come along and easily incite such mobs of shoppers to go on a hate campaign and agitate with the company to tax or penalize land barons. In a game where the company listens to you and changes features, that's ominous to me. So I think it's worth pushing back.


I've studied Ulrika's statements and actions, and I've made a judgement about them. The judgement is that they follow a certain pattern outlined for hundreds of years already by the Marxist ideology, which is both and ideology and a method used for taking power. She could come on now and say "I'm not Marxist, I voted for Kerry" or "You don't get to label me with real-life political labels, I'm a pioneer in a cutting-edge social experiment in an alternative universe" -- but hey, her friends already got to label me as an apopletic red-neck right-winger, so fine. I call it as I see it.

.

Could someone who opposes Marxists in a game like this -- they get to have their Marxism and I get to fight back -- be opposed to the war in Iraq? But I was opposed to it and I have no problem with questioning things like the WMD issue, etc.



What's false? I'd like to see it listed. Ulrika herself hasn't answered a single one of my questions. It took us many, many rounds just to extract the information from them that they go a deal from the Lindens.



As a new player, I can't be expected to know this. But a group that sets itself up as an experiment in governance playing with various variants of real-life ideologies like social democracy, with members who write on their profile that they are social democrats or anarchists or whatever (lol how do they get to be both LOL) has got to be prepared to stand some heat. Other player groups with other ideologies will challenge them ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY WANT TO USE THEIR IDEOLOGY TO CHANGE THE GAME'S LANDSCAPE.



Hrmmm...well I will observe it and read about it and get back to you. I don't see Phil Linden announcing a progressive tax on landowners and a penalty for rapid group purchases yet, so hhmmmm I guess Ulrika isn't the powerful voice she might imagine LOL. No matter. You are characterizing extremes, and what this group is, is something in the middle. Unless other players push back against such a social democratic community that aspires to attack the class of landowners, however, they will replicate. Obviously their goal is to establish some kind of model that they can spread through this game and others. Guess what -- they're going to meet with some resistance on that.

I've seen it happen many times before. They first try to push a government of any type on people, but players want freedom and anarchy and they don't want a government, God bless 'em. So then such pro-governance groups try to find a policy they can chip away at, some feature of the game, some single-issue they can campaign on -- the classic pattern of Marxists in the wilderness everywhere. And I'm having none of it -- I see through it for what it is.



Well I've been in various games and forums and I've never heard that term, only here. I'm happy to make its acquaintance. I hope somebody has an actual asshat in the game I can don. In fact, I will wear a sign as a bade of honour: "Ulrika has called me an asshat".

ulrika is just inciting discussion. this thread will not cause LL to revamp the land system. as soon as they vocalize an intent, there would bea real reaction to a real threat.

you can still buy and sell land with your alt accounts to your hearts content. i'm not worried, you shouldn't be either.

You know, I often wondered when Ulrika's position of presenting decades-out-of-date communist practices as a utopian ideology would finally offend someone who actually has to deal with attempts to make communism and socialism work in the real world and lived through the flawed interperatations.

I never figured it would be Anshe, but, hey. I'm always happy to be proven wrong on things like that.

As is anyone that posts in the feature suggestions forum.



This is incorrect. Our project will stay contained. We may grow, other similar projects may open, but it has been stated numerous times by all members in the project, including Ulrika, that we do not want to see a one government system for the whole of SL.




She really doesn't have to answer you if she wishes not to. And many of your posts have been very condesending. The fact that some of us are gluttons for punishment seems to be why some of us keep pounding our heads against the wall trying to answer your questions even though we have to keep doing it over and over again because you don't want to accept our answers.



Again, no. You are wrong.




You may need to look harder. As you seem to still be wrong in most of your assumptions.




Ace Cassidy has made a very nice one.

When things get loud enough, Linden do listen...

For several months, outside of the presidential election, the number one theme in the forums was the extermination of 'land barons' and lowering land prices so that 'newbies' could afford land. Mind you, none of these postings were coming from game newbies, but from self-appointed representatives.

So what happened? Land prices have dropped close to 75% from their peak due to massive releases of land by LL. Not a bad thing, but I believe it was done as a direct result of the pressure from forum postings.

So I respectfully disagree. Lindens do monitor the threads and do take action on what is perceived as the overwhelming wish of "the people". But of course, just like in RL, the wishes of a loud and vocal minority, not necessarily reflect the wishes or interests of the silent majority.

- T -

That's it exactly. I don't know what Anshe's story is, but anyone who has had to see communism and socialism up close has come to the conclusion that it is not just flawed interpretation or flawed execution that are the problems, it is inherent in the ideologies themselves -- they are insidious and destructive and always lead to crime.

I'm afraid I'm far less than convinced, seeing your behavior and methods in this forum. Ulrika came on like a house-a-fire to gun against the land-barons. That's hardly the posture of someone who "does not want to see a one government system for the whole of SL". Maybe Ulrika says that as a tactical maneuver for a time, maybe no one ever calls her on it, but it's clear that she'd like to change the game, attack the land-barons, and incite others to do so. And Tito's post about the historical sequencing, of rolling out more land and making it harder for land-barons to sell the land they already purchased, possibly in response to players clamoring about prices, really makes me wonder.



1. You didn't answer the questions in a timely, straightforward manner, but it took us many, many rounds to establish the facts, namely that you have a special deal with the Lindens freeing you of the upfront purchase price of land that the rest of people pay.
2. It's quite OK to be condescending and hostile to someone who FIRST comes on the forum and mounts an inciteful, hostile post about attacking the land-baron class, drawing on all the free-floating anger in the game about prices or whatever. It's called "pushing back". Huh, it's OK for her to come on and agitate for removing the freedom of land purchases and penalize them by taxes, and make sharp comments about how land-barons should only be compensated "commensurate with their work" a la Lenin's ideology? Huh? Why is that OK, without a challenge? Don't confuse challenging your answers and compelling you to see the logic of your own positions and your support of Ulrika's positions with somehow misunderstanding that you didn't "answer" the question.




Err...I am???? But why did she campaign then? Just to have an egghead discussion? If you don't push back against such idealogues, they go forward, and they do change the game. Trust me, it's better to fight now when it's merely at the ideological and discussion stage, than later when it is an all-out war where clans of players begin to negrate and hover battleships over each other's land.

Q

Oh, you mean you didn't convince me that you are all a benign talk-shop with just hilariously wacky Ulrika, who's out in leftwing, sometimes embarrassing your group by getting too agitating on the forum? Oh, come off it. I don't buy that for a second.


Can't wait! It is indeed a badge of honour coming from those who side with Ulrika in this ideological warfare -- and trust me, ideological warfare is PRECISELY what is required to deal with a public nuisance like Ulrika.

Just to clear Anshe... Anshe did not start or was never personally involved on any of these discussions. Her name was brought up as usual, but she was not personally in it.

Anshe must have very thick skin as she hardly ever posts on the forums defending herself.

Or maybe her time is simply better spent working on her business.

- T -

Actually she did post in this thread, including stating that Neualtenburg does not pay anything. Anshe also posts fairly regularly, and has been quite vocal in defending herself. I would not expect any less from her.

Um.

I was responding to a point Anshe made, in this thread, regarding this discussion.

What is your point exactly?

The problem is, this is not a fact. You invalidated it with your final statement. The land has not been purchased. How often does this need to be repeated? A little background on land in SL:

1) As a new player, you can PURCHASE a plot of land called First Land. This is a 512m plot that is set to $1/m in price, since most new players do not have a large L$ income. It is a starter plot, and was previously called Land for the Landless. While it is restricted on who can purchase them (your account, can only purchase one), there are no restrictions on resale. Thus you could buy for $1/m and resell for $5/m if the market bears it.

2) Any player, at any time, can purchase land via auction or in world sales mechanisms. In auctions, you can purchase using USD or L$, depending on the type of auction. You then have 7 days to claim your land upon winning it. In the meantime, it is set for sale to you for $1, and is off the market. This allows some flexibility in moving around land before taking it onto your account directly. There is no similar grace period for purchases of land in world, only in auctions (an odd inconsistency). Once you purchase the land with either L$ or USD, you "own" the land. This means you are free to resell it, subdivide it, terraform it if the sim allows, and do a host of other things with the land that you own. You pay a monthly tier fee based upon the amount of land you hold. Yes, Linden Lab can revoke it at any time, and yes, you do lose the land if you stop paying your land tier fees to support the land.

3) Additionally, players can purchase special private island sims. They have a significant USD up front cost, because a brand new server is brought online, unattached to the main grid. While you cannot resell the land on the private island, you can resell/transfer ownership of the entire sim using whatever arrangements you need to. You get to name the sim, and have a set of controls over the land that land owners in mainland sims do not have (ability to change the ground textures, to affect day/night, to control access into the sim, to broadcast messages via the popup window to anyone in the sim, etc.).

4) Many players who own land from points 2 and 3 frequently offer space for rent within their sims, to help attract players to those sims. The rental of space for either housing or as a vendor in a shopping area does not incur any land tier fees. These are covered by the owner of the land. Depending on the arrangement, you generally pay a weekly fee in L$ to occupy a set portion of land within the sim. For shopping areas, you are normally given either a stall or a set area with a number of prims that you are allowed to use for a fee, with additional prims/space affecting the price. The land is being rented, it is not owned by the player occupying it.

5) Linden Lab periodically makes offers of certain parcels of land for projects or special purposes. For example, Luna and Oak Grove are both Linden owned places that allow players to enter a lottery for vendor space within them. There are no rental fees, but you must have use your land tier to cover the size of the plot that you win. The four vehicle sims south of Oak Grove can be rented in L$ for special events, there are sims that can be used to stage memorials, and there are other periodic events that land is made available for -sometimes requiring tier, sometimes not. An example was LindenWorld, an experiment in creating a theme park that was a bit ahead of its time (see Spittoonie Island for an example of this done correctly). I am sure more offers will be made in the future.

6) There are four sims (Sistiana, Grignano, Miramare and Barcola) that are unable to be terraformed. They have an infrastructure built by Linden Lab of roads, sidewalks, canals, etc.., with special plots that offer twice the prim count as other sims for the same size and tier cost. Thus, you can use the same amount of prims on a 1024m piece of land that you would ordinarily get on a 2048m piece of land, while paying the tier of 1024m. These plots were made available originally via auction, and periodically come up for sale on the land market. They are generally high priced because of their double prim status - the only plots in SL currently like this.

5) Neualtenburg did not make any special "deal" with LL. Ulrika submitted a group proposal as part of an offering that Linden Lab made to all SL players. They made a portion of previously reserved snow land available to any group that had a proposal that fit the theme of the sim, along with other criteria. Neualtenburg was chosen based upon its meeting the terms of the offer. This was not a negotiated deal - it was available to anyone who met the criteria. I could be wrong on this, but I believe that Neualtenburg at the time was the only proposal submitted. The group must have the land tier donations to cover 1/2 of a sim - the amount of land they are occupying. They do not pay rent on the land, a la Luna. They do not own the land - they have no ability to parcel or resell the land. Their project is subject to ongoing review by the Lindens, and the land can be revoked at any time. They have an arrangement with Linden Lab that was available to all groups.

I respectfully disagree with you, Tito. They monitor the land market very closely and match available land to growth in the player base. Linden Lab acknowledged that they had not kept up aggressively enough with it over the summer, and the subsequent land releases have been an effort to correct that and keep up with land demand. Additionally, it is in their best interest to not have an outrageously inflated land market. If Second Life becomes financially prohibitive to take part in, it affects their long term bottom line, regardless of any short term gains.

Prokofy,

You were looking for the other voices of Neualtenburg, and I've been following this post since yesterday. I'm another voice of Neualtenburg.

First off you wanted to know whether Neualtenburgies are on the same page ideologically with Ulrika. I'm pretty certain, based on my limited knowledge of Ulrika, that I'm not of the same mind as her. I'm a former Republican who Bush converted to Democrat in 2000. I'm comfortable staying a Democrat as I find Republicans too close-minded and one-sided. While I have swung to the left a bit, I think my swing stopped just left of center.

I'm a musician, but I'm not a hippy, a communist, a socialist, or whatever other incorrect labels get put on lefties and/or Democrats. I find myself to be more moral than hick Republicans (and I'm not saying all Republicans are hicks).

I think in RL that the government should be fiscally responsible. I'm not for programs that don't work, but I realize that in America there's a strong misconception that everyone has the same chance for success when that couldn't be further from the truth.

According to Tickle.com's Super IQ Test I'm a Creative Theorist with an IQ of 141. According to them, "Only 6 out of 1,000 people have this rare combination of abilities." (I know that this might seem irrelevant, but the purpose is just to say that I'm not idiotic.)

Do I sound like Ulrika so far?

I joined Neualtenburg because it sounds like fun. I can be creative, and I can participate politically.

Ulrika has been nice and respectful of me in the Neualtenburg boards. She's also been helpful.

I couldn't find the link off-hand (Gwen's article ), but I remember looking through one of the Neualt boards, and Gwyneth Llewelyn had written an article about SL, Neualtenburg, and politics. It was a very thought-out , informed article with literally no views or opinions that were even moderately extremist. Kendra (who I think you lump in with Ulrika) said about the article, "absolutely brilliant! a MUST read." Based on that I don't find Kendra to be an extremist either. I know that's not much to go on, but I haven't had a whole lot of contact with her. To me if someone agrees with my viewpoint (that the article was really, really good) than I don't think they are extremists. I could be proven wrong later I suppose.

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Regarding political debate. If you take part in modern political forums on the internet then you know that there's a certain segment of people who are going to reject the bad parts of both leftist and rightist ideologies. They just exist to make people think, to challenge people to think more about what is going on, and what has gone on in the past. (I sometimes debate over at conservativepunk.com.) Like everyone else they (this subset of people I couldn't begin to label) support the lesser-of-two-evil's side, but moreover they'd just as soon trash the system altogetherand start anew. Ulrika could be one of those people. I've never found those types of people to be particularly threatening in any way. They've got valid points to make, and deserve the right to be heard. I don't have any inclination whatsoever to think that she's going to handle Neualtenburg in a manner that the general public will have a problem with.

There's my two cents.

Rock Psaltery

yoo-hooo... Ulrika!

I posted a comment earlier that was an attempt to steer this thread back to the *original* conversation of subsidies and exploitation and away from the Neualtenburg projekt and your personality. I think it may have been lost on some, due to the current flame war this thread has seemingly turned into, so I'd like to re-address what I spoke of earlier.

To summarize your original post:

1. Land pricing decreases as the amount of held land increases. Smaller land owners pay significantly higher rates per m2 than larger land holders do
   
2. Land discounts (aka subsidies) can be used by land dealers to exploit the system by buying land in bulk, dividing and selling for a higher price
   

I'd like to address the first point, primarily.

Taking your subsidy logic and applying it to another product in SL, buildings, we can see that subsidies can also run in reverse.

For example: I have homes that I sell but I also have several 'free' builds that anyone in the community can obtain. The homes I sell are larger and have a higher prim count, but both types of builds required my time and effort to:

1. Prototype
   
2. Construct
   
3. Texture
   
4. Package
   

The cost of these goods is my time and effort, not to mention upload fees, etc.

Using your subsidy logic, it could then be said that the wealthier players are subsidizing those players who are obtaining the 'free' builds. Both builds took time, energy, and $L to create the end product, but only one type is obtained by a fee.

As you can see Ulrika, subsidies are in more areas than just land. If I were to guess, they are probably in every product that is ever sold in SL. Scripted objects, poses, clothing, furniture... you name it.

Should we simply remove the 'free' items since it is unfairly placing some of the cost burden on those that can afford it through a subsidy?

That is correct. The opportunity was open to all. Neualtenburg was the only group that followed through and offered to tier up to pay for the montlhly land fees.

Yay, Haney to the rescue again..

Now the infamous ever...""I told ya so...hehe"

Shadow