Is LL Subsidizing Our Exploitation?

She has stated it clearly, along with what she considers to be her arguments that back up her statements, and many people in this thread have countered those arguments. Not everything has to be distilled into 25 words or 3 words or a 1 word answer. While Ulrika certainly can digress and obfuscate like nobody's business, I agree with her that LL is complicit in the problem, I just differ on the solution.

Prokofy, what Kendra is saying is true and Haney Linden fully outlined this in another thread when I was asking the very question if LL was supporting Player run goverments.

So, to be honest pulling NBerg and its government into the context of this discussion is a moot point as the group can do none of what was suggested unless they release their tier to the group and reformulate their constitution.

Each Individual there still pays for their tier to Linden Lab. The only subsidy of the land and Kendra or Ulrika correct me if I am wrong is they had to pay the base price for the land for the lease. (Edited to add in other words they didnt have to go through the auction to get it but are still required otherwise to maintain the sim via tier and the intial purchas of the land based on linden set prices.)

Shadow

P.S. Prokofy, please note, I am neither for nor againsts Kendra or Ulrika my points and arguments are base soely on known fact and information provided by trusted sources and those sources being Lindens or my own mental deductions of facts provided.

Ulrika and Kendra came up with the idea for the project and gave a base government for us to improve upon. As a group we have done just that. It does not currently in its entirety duplicate any current RL government. It is we as a group that have formed the constitution and bill of rights. Once the government is in place, laws and other reforms will be made by this government.



Yes she did. Part of it at least.



Yes she did and we do.



You are mistaken. See my post above to Anshe.




No free land was given. Those of us who donated land to the group donated out of our current teirs. Some tiered up to contribute. Some sold land in other sims so they would have land to donate to the group. Nothing special was done that other groups could not do if they found a large chunk of land and wanted to do a group build on it and allow group members to donate from their tiers for the land.


So. This is why I asked if you had heard about the project. Ok, I guess you have. But you do not seem to know how it works, how it got started, or where it is going. You are welcome to read our forums and website if you are interested in learning about it. But I would say you may want to put your statements about the project into question form before you assume anything. Some people take incorrect statements and run with them and well, that is how rumors get started.

Yes, Kendra, but more to the point, are you guys getting a 'discount' due to the larger tier fee?

Anshe,

You are very outspoken about misinformation being put out about you, yet you have done the same here.

This is a weasle-wording.

What you have describe is what everyone does. Because you have a special arangement does not change that.

The point he is making is lack of a downpayment, which other people do have to pay to linden labs.

Not Kendra, but I can answer this. No Juro.

True. But we can also have the land taken away from us. Every 4 months we will be reviewed. If the project does not meet certain goals, we lose the land.

No. We aren't.

It is not "weasle-wording". They do not own the land. They cannot turn around tomorrow and resell it. You can't make the comparison to normal group or privately owned land, which can be resold freely, or even private islands, which are able to be resold as a whole. They could lose this land in the future, and are in fact just renting the land with their tier fees.

Also not Kendra, but how are they getting a discount? They do not own the land.

Reit, your dislike of the project is well established. My words have been crystal clear --parse them how you will --I'm frankly tired of constantly having to repeat myself.

Maybe Western European Social Democrats should be helping out their Eastern European brothers who are finally free of oppresive Socialism and struggling to regain some sort of workable economy after all incentives to produce were destroyed my the utopian theories of Marx and Engles.

And yes, us average Americans grasp the problem. After all, we spent trillions protecting Europe from your Socialist friends to the East, and we have given refuge to millions that have fled Socialism...

How soon we forget...

- T -

She hasn't stated in a way that is clear to me.

Glad you get it.

Pen I think Juro was trying to relate back to the context that the current tier system is regressive. Ie a 1 person sim owner only has to pay 204.95 per month to have a sim.

But in Nbergs defense, Juro, what Pen said is true as well. Why because each member is paying their own tier that donated to that project. Thus in essence no discount.

Now had they banned together and all paid either Pen/Kendra/ or Ulrika to make a single tier and payment per month then in essense yes they would have been recieving the same discount that any person that can pay 204.95 a month can get for a sim.

So to Support Pens Statment ...No they do not get a discount...

Ghod this is getting clear as MUD

You have to be joking!

These forums are a hot bed of Socialism! The very few people that have expressed moderate or right of center ideas have been quickly silenced.

I sure as heck have not seen a big push for a moderate or conservative in-game government either. Au contraire!

- T -

No, they weren't.

You described paying a monthly fee.

Not, which was the initial question, how much you payed for the access to the land itself.

Since it was not land that was obtained through auction nor a private sim in the traditional sense, the only two conclusions must be that either you payed no money for access to the land or it was a private payment to linden labs for the amount the land is worth.

All that was being asked is, which is it? Did you pay a reasonable price for access to the land, or was it given to you gratis, as long as your willing to pay the land tier on it?

Your answer didn't answer that, but did attempt to confuse the issue with such comments as "not free at all" in reference to a land tier fee instead of the initial payment.

My like or dislike of the project is not an issue here. For the record, I'm essentialy apathetic regarding the project. I don't really give a damn, as your government is neutered from the get go. I think question at hand, however, is very relevent to the issue at hand, considering the position Ulrika is taking.

Basically what you state here but with a catch. First we were challenged: "The Neualtenburg Projekt has been created to meet Haney Linden's challenge of creating a compelling destination for members of SL which beautifies and preserves the snow sims."

We have goals that must be met and our project will be reviewed every 4 months. If we are not meeting those goals, the land will be taken away from us. So we are only renting the land, we do not own it.

On the contrary, weasle wording is exactly what it is. Weasle wording isn't an insult, in this case, Cris. It's a form of fallacious arguement where words are manipulated to tell one truth but seem to be telling another, normally to side-step an issue that someone does not want to directly address. In this case, a question was asked, but the answer given was an answer to it.



Quite true, but not relevent.

A yes/no question was asked. Was the land they are using payed for initially.

The only relevent answer was "yes" or "no".

Reitsuki,

The group did not pay any initial fee for the land iself - as most people would have had to do. In that sense, they got it free. In the sense that they must donate tier/pay tier fees for it, no, they are not getting it free.

Personally, I think it's a deal... I'd have loved that kind of handout/waiver of the initial land costs for far less than what I currently own/hold. But, then again, I am not a group who's gotten the blessings of the Gods at the Lab.... nor a member of a privileged group or three for any of a number of special projects which seem to have worked out this way.

Then again, I am just a cynical curmudgeon, so I must be seeing things wrongly.

Are you talking about access or ownership, since you blurred the two while commenting on Kendra's wording? A payment for the value of the land would have given ownership of the land, which they do not own. Are you speaking purely of access, which means I can build on your land without having my items returned to me, or are you speaking of ownership, as in I paid L$ or USD in auction or in world and now I "own" this land as long as I keep paying my tier fees?

Many people have access to land they do not own - every vendor who is in a mall owned by someone else is an example of that. Their presence there is contingent on the rules of the mall and any corresponding rent payments. They did not buy the underlying land, they are renting the space that they have. The project does not own the land it is on, they are given access to the land in exchange for supporting it with their tier fee and also contingent on meeting group goals. In essence, they have a very unusual rental relationship, as they are having to use land tier fees where most people who rent land in SL are paying in L$ - so if anything, they are at the disadvantage.

BTW, this is not even the first example of this - Luna was the same way, on a smaller scale.

I told you the land wasn't owned. It was leased. You chose to attack me by saying I was using "weasel-wording".

Flawed Hegelian dialectic aside --there aren't just "two conclusions". You are ignoring the fact (despite numerous mentions in this thread alone) the land is not "owned" by the Projekt --it is leased --we pay in Land tiers and labor. The accsess to the land being granted on the contigency that we meet Linden goals.

I'm not attempting to "confuse" issues despite your prejudicial statement to the contrary.

This was my understanding all along. I wasn't actually so much curious as just trying to help someone else get an answer to their question. But thanks to Pendari for confirming it.



I woulda loved it too. So what if LL can take the land away? We all have to live with that possibility... It's happened before. We agreed to it when we signed up. It just so happens its easier for them to loose their land than us. Oh well. For forgoeing the insane amount of RL money I payed for my land, I'd have taken that risk gladly.



I know the feeling.

Thanks Pen, Kendra, and Shadow for answering that. Of course, you could've saved some money by appointing a single person to carry a larger portion of the tier.

In summary, I'd like to say that while I understand the issue Ulrika is trying to fix, I disagree with her suggestions to fix it. Additionally, I don't have a good answer for fixing the 'problem' with land barons.

I'm sure the Lindens are aware of the potential for exploiting the current system and I would guess they are working on a solution to close the loop. If not, they probably should start looking at it.