Is LL Subsidizing Our Exploitation?

Bah, there's no "I told you so" here.

Before all the fanboys break into a Linden love-fest, let's look at the facts.



Even if the opportunity is "open to all," if ONLY ONE group takes advantage of it then perhaps it was poorly advertised? Is it known? Is it on your website? Is it posted as a sticky in the forums? Is it on a WIKI? Is it in the game notes that come in your first log-on? The answer is "NO". I never heard of it before because it is not listed -- until I began to hear of it anecdotally, and then harangued these evasive people until they told us of the arrangement.

THEY never said, "OH, you know it's this great program, open to all, here's the URL, go read about it, anybody can do it, give it a shot."

They never said that. Instead, it took numerous questions for them to explain that they didn't pay the upfront land costs -- something that they were no doubt a little bit ashamed to admit, especially when people like Anshe came on and said "You got that for free? Am I in the wrong movie?" which was my sentiment exactly. People got land for free, just paying the tier, and they want to pick on the landbaron class? Huh?

Go back over all these posts, and you will see numerous, repeated questions, and them saying things indignantly like "We did TOO pay!" -- as if paying tier was all we meant by paying! Sheesh.

Yes, this option may be open to all, but if a group took advantage of it, they have a special relationship -- it is indeed fair to characterize it as such. Indeed, they've described it as somehow "arduous" to "follow through with the Lindens" -- as if it is almost a kind of special competition, as if they might lose the status. No doubt there is some review process.

What I really didn't like about this post, Haney, it that your reply in this very heated and controversial debate, which has merits on both side of the aisle, makes it seem like you have taken the side of these two rabble-rousers from Neualtenberg. I don't believe you intend to do that.

Your post almost makes it sound as if everybody else are slackers except Nberg, the others didn't get their act together to tier up and pay monthly land fees, and that to get this deal, you have to "follow through," as if there are failed attempts littering the landscape.

But I'm a new player. Where does it say on the web site that you, too, may start a minigovernment and waive the initial cost of your land???

I see information about starting something like Neverland -- that's featured prominently. I see developers' awards but these are different programs.

There's nowhere on the site anything that attempts to sell the game with this feature that I can tell (unless I'm missing something).

I personally with my friends formed a group and tiered up and started an architectural club in the game, and I never asked a dime from the Lindens and never will ask for a dime except for those event grants that they appear to leave open to all.

I have a building project that is also a planned community but I won't ask a dime from the Lindens in tier or Linden, cash or kind, because if players can't organize these things among themselves fairly easily, your game is doomed.

If non-profit projects like this need a lot more help, then feature them on your website. It's understood that they are nonprofit projects, they don't involve profit or business, or resale or dwell. But you haven't featured them. This world is overrun with malls and hellfire clubs. If you want the landscape to be a little more diverse, you should advertise this feature that is supposedly open to all. Don't try to shame players into thinking they didn't get their act together and didn't follow through. Provide them with better-advertised opportunities.

It is absolutely clear that you are not interested in the truth of the situation at all. The offer was very clearly advertised in the announcements and main forum at the time the offer was made, which WAS SEVERAL MONTHS AGO. This group did not mystically appear in the snow sims last week without anybody notifying you. You have been here since September, and make all of these blanket statements about what was or was not done, as if you have any idea about what actually occured. It is very obvious that you don't.

As far as you never asking for a dime, neither did this group. Why are you not rallying against all the vendors in Luna and Big Ben's? They got their plots by lottery. If I wanted to build a store, I had to buy land or rent it, so they are all corrupt and getting a special deal, right?

What a waste of time trying to answer any of your questions has been.

Cristiano, I appreciate your effort to walk me through the ABCs of land ownership, as if I was on day 1 and clueless. Those steps will no doubt be helpful to some readers.

But I've bought first land. I've bought second land. And I've bought third land, Cristiano. Heck, I've bought a whole sim at auction. I know something about land and how you get it, I'm not stupid and I see the islands for sale, but not resale, the parcels for rent, but not purchase, etc. etc. That's all fairly obvious. Duh.

What I have never, never, never seen, however, is a feature of the game saying that you, too, can start your own alternative government/non-profit project and NOT PAY UP FRONT BUT JUST PAY TIER to enjoy the experience in a big game space -- a space you can't resell or get dwell from, to be sure, but enjoy. And that's what the game is all about, no?

You have become so immersed in the wierd-think of SL where you buy land but don't really own it, and pay tier but don't really get anything for it except more bills, that you are forgetting that there's a simple process here.

You pay money for land. That enables you then to pay more money for land.

The Nberg people skipped the first step. They used a feature offered by the Lindens -- evidently not widely publicized or known or featured on their old or new website -- to *skip this step*.

You keep harping on the fact that there wasn't a purchase as if to say "purchase is irrelevant because this is a special project" as if we are to turn the glass upside down and view what they do as merely what they do, without comparing it to the rest of the game, and discounting "purchase" and "first deposit" as if it simply doesn't count because they're special.

But I'm sorry, purchase IS relevant. Everybody else in the game -- land barons, groups, clubs, just ordinary individuals -- ARE paying purchase costs and tier on top of it.

So this one group that has a deal -- yes, a deal, because it's a special feature they qualified for -- is really not in a morally defensible place when two of their members launch a frontal attack on those who DO PURCHASE, especially when they imply there is something "immoral" or "not commensurate with labor" here, a la Lenin.

I'm sorry, but while people like to avoid conflict and don't like flame wars, I'm afraid I have to fight this one because it's just so damn obvious and it would be obvious to anyone walking into this situation anew, who is not suffering from the Swedish Stockholm Syndrome that occurs between long-time players and game developers.

Two individuals in a group -- a group that isn't disavowing their position -- a group that skipped a step and saved some money on the usual purchase price in the standard game feature -- is mounting an attack on others who paid out large amounts of money and urging that they be taxed and penalized.

If this group -- whose ideologies I don't care for so far, especially if they involve Republicans who don't understand how Leninism work -- gets a special deal, then who cares? I don't care. Let them. Let 1000 flowers bloom, as Mau would say. I don't seek the same thing for myself or my friends.

But what I will object to is when players use that advantage and special relationship with the Lindens to campaign and agitate for progressive tax, reversal of rights originally available to players under the TOS, and penalizing of business. I'm sorry, but what's astounding to me is that you, as a prominent businessman in this game, aren't rushing to my defense and the defense of this position, which isn't personal; instead you are trying to "make peace" and attempt to make me look like a newbie idiot who doesn't understand the ABCs of land purchase. Spare me.

It would be nice to see Nberg as a group say "We do not advocate penalizing and prosecuting land barons." It would be nice if the Lindens say "Thanks for that discussion but we have no current plans to introduce a progressive tax to penalize land barons."

Hardly. I'm happy to hear the truth -- and I am hearing it, and I am continuing to object to those who use this arrangement to blast land barons.

If I'm a new player, geez, I missed that announcement SEVERAL MONTHS AGO, duh. I don't expect everyone to notify me of their actions, duh. What I do expect, however, is that the Lindens, having made this arrangement with one group, grandfather it and make it available to all. Why does only one group get to do it? They say that only one group responded to an offer you say was made months ago. Why is the offer not still good?

And really, you can't seem to get it through your head that I don't care about their special deal, when it was offered, whether it was grandfathered, and whether I can have it, too, although those are mildly interesting problems for the whole community to look at.

What I do care is the morally indefensible position this special relationship creates for those attacking landowners.

.

Huh? You really are suffering from Swedish Stockholm Syndrome. Have you ever bid on a whole sim, Cristiano? My impression is that you own lots of land. You paid -- what -- for it? Hundreds? At least tens. Was this in real-life dollars? It was. Everyone who wants to do a business/club/home/whatever on land in here has to BUY.

THEY HAVE TO PAY. THESE PEOPLE DID NOT PAY -- UNTIL THEY PAID TIER, WHICH IS THE SECOND THING YOU PAY, AFTER YOU PAY UPFRONT COSTS.

WHAT PART OF THAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND??????

That IS asking for a dime from the Lindens. That is asking the Lindens to forego their usual profit for their gamespace, which they make for X cost of programmers' and servers' time and offer to players for the $9.95/month or other type of subscription.

You can accept that Ulrika has the right to make an argument about value and progressive and regressive taxes, and make it appear as if all the individual subscribers are holding up the landbarons on their backs.

If you intellectually grasped that monkey math and that Leninist hokum, why is it so hard for you to grasp another non-monkey math concept which is that everybody pays, except Nberg? Indeed it is true that everybody pays, except Nberg, because everybody pays for land, and only then do they pay tier. Just paying tier is getting something partly for free, I'm sorry, and if you can't see it as such, I guess you are more far gone than I thought.

Some animals are more equal than others.



A lottery is an openly announced process, and God bless them if they won it. They did in deed get a special deal. Getting special deals isn't corrupt, but let's call them what they are -- special deals. Everybody who didn't win the lottery has to pay.

In the same way, a kind of lottery to make a non-profit government was opened but only one application worked out. It is a deal, and it should be described as such.

Hey Rock. That was a great post. It's really nice to have folks like you involved in the project.

In RL I always vote progressive, just left of the Democrats (although I think the whole one-dimensional left-right analogy oversimplifies the multidimensional space of politics). I'm a strong proponent of individual rights and ethical capitalism. I would not describe myself as a socialist or marxist, rather I'm a capitalist that believes the system should be regulated and reformed to protect individual rights (social democracy). I also believe in bringing together many people of different backgrounds and having them seek compromise. Thus my core values focus on protecting the individual, ethical behavior, and multilateralism.

I also would like to reiterate to everyone that my views (whether stated or imagined) have nothing to do with the City. The City is in fact comprised of dozens of individuals who contribute their own ideology to form the whole. It has truly become a collaboration of art, politics, and culture. After the elections in January, I won't even be a group officer anymore.


For those who would like to find out who I really am and what the city is really about, head out there this weekend. Right now I'm under the town square (in my secret workshop) making Christmas decorations and coding for some artisans who need animations. It's a swell place with some really neat people making great architecture, culture, and politics. I just put up a new suspension bridge last weekend! I think you'll find the Bavarian architecture and Christmas decorations the perfect cure for a black forum thread.

~Ulrika~

Actually yes there is TSO Refugee, I linked to information earlier about Nberg and how the land etc. was acquired. You trifled over the information and gleaned only what you presumed necessary and still ignored the obvious answer to your line of questioning.

Your audacity continues to astound and confound people here, to presume calling a general mass of people "fanboys" is an insult in itself.

I have read your posts and granted you are a well-written person. But, may I ask do you know how to give a succinct retort?

As your posts meander on to a point of boredom, whether your posts have validity to their context or relevance to the situation the mere length of them alone creates aggravation to the point of frustration.

Augmenting to that, jumping to the assumption people are on some bandwagon of love, ads knowledge to your lack of knowledge of SL.

Cristiano, outlines below how futile it is to deliver any fact or credence to you as you ignore it and continue on with your inane banter.

So, once again I respond childishly "I told you so" as it seems to be the only way to get some people to understand.

Next time read the words in their context not what your mind presumes them to be.

Misperception is what got us where we are now. Clear definitive facts and dismissal of childish allegations will get us out.


Have a nice day!
Shadow

Cristiano. I think your posts in this thread have been fabulous. You have given great detail and laid things out in an easy to understand way. You gave answers. You gave correct and even verified answers. Prokofy thinks he did not get the answers he wanted. He did, he just doesn't like the answers so he is going to continue to ask the same thing over and over. I think you said it best in the above quote.

This is the part where you go astray every single time. There are many examples in world of land rental agreements with no ownership - some are paid in L$ as rent, some are paid in USD as tier. It is the tier fees that pay for the cost of programmers, servers, etc. The L$ cost of buying land does not benefit them at all, as they are the treasury in the first place - it is a money sink for the economy.

By Neualtenberg not paying an arbitrary L$ cost to Linden Lab for land they do not own, they did not cost Linden Lab anything. Additionally, if Linden Lab had sold the land, then the spot would be theirs permanently. That was not the purpose of this offer by Linden Lab. BTW, there is another example from Luna that is germaine. The two anchor stores in Luna are actually auctioned off. You pay for them up front, and pay tier on them, and still don't own them - you lose them at the end of the term.

The only people who benefit directly from the sale of inworld land are the players who own the land, as they can then convert their L$ to USD if they choose to, or reinvest it in other land. I have a very clear understanding of land ownership - I own 110,000m of land. Some was purchased in auction, some by in world mechanisms, some in private arrangements with friends (I have a plot that was given to me free in Meribel, for example). Some of the land I own was never available for auction (the land that I own in Federal and Stanford, for example). I have paid anywhere from $1/m to $25/m for land that I own. Most of the auctions I purchased land from were in L$, with a few exceptions. I have bid on an entire sim before, I was one of the original bidders on what became Avalon, the first sim that was offered up for auction, in the pre-private island days.

As far as me rallying beside your cause, if you read my statements in this thread, you would see i am opposed to Ulrika's idea because it would penalize all players who own land, not just those she feels are unfairly profitting. At its core, her argument is about penalizing the parasitic extraction of wealth. I can't fault that feeling, I agree with it, but I am very much opposed to her methods for wanting to do so.

There are many people who have felt that simply using real life purchasing power to buy up entire tracts of land and then doing nothing but turn around and mark them up to a higher price is immoral and contributed to the massive spike in prices we had prior to your arrival (land selling for $30/m for example). In the end, high land prices ultimately hurt SL overall, especially new and non-wealthy players, which bothers me - and I am a wealthy player.

Do not mistake the concept of land barony - buying and selling large amounts of land, with players who hold large amounts of land for its use as intended (a distinction which Ulrika's plan does not make, which is why I am opposed to it). Land is the single most important commodity in SL. Without it, the rest of the system fails, and there is no incentive to build or create. That is why it is so important to protect it.

Profoky, I recognize that somewhere in there you and I are saying the same thing. I just will not let you make false statements about the group. Every time you do so and it is pointed out, you find a new spin for it. First it was that the thing was not announced, then when it is pointed out that it was announced at the time very clearly, you divert from that and say "oh well why is the offer still not good". That is a question for Linden Lab, and no fault of Neualtenbug.

Cristiano, I continue to be astounded by your failure to recognize the obvious. Land in this game costs real-life dollars, and is sold for real-life dollars, as you yourself should know better than anyone.

It doesn’t matter if there are varieties of ownership involving just paying play money as rent that you get for free in your box every week, or paid for by your tier which is valued in US dollars. It’s not only tier that pays for programmers, but that influx of thousands of dollars of cash which is essentially for a pet rock that pours into the land auction each week.

These large-ticket items in dollars form the core of the game’s values, and what the land barons do with these purchases even affects the Linden/dollar rate.

Nberg didn't pony up those real-life dollars to get the land -- they got it for free, then paid tier on it. Why is that so hard just to admit? It's special, it's unique, it's a deal.



To say that a thing like Nberg doesn’t cost the Linden’s anything is peculiar coming from someone who I assume either runs a rl business or works for a rl company. When you let something happen for free, even in a non-profit operation, you are taking money away from yourself. You could have sold it. You could have covered your costs. Running servers, paying programmers, opening up trouble tickets, just providing ongoing advice, etc. costs time and money. It would be silly to say that giving a large group a free game space just because they paid the tier means “it cost them nothing”. When the company gets money from other planned communities in the form of upfront purchases and ongoing tier, they have simply covered their costs better. To the extent they can’t get those costs covered with Nberg, it’s actually losing them money.

Trust me, if this wasn’t a loss-leader, there’d be more public advertising of the let's-play social-democracy option. If it truly was cost-free for the company, they’d have schools, hospitals, prisons, and the UN getting space on their server just for that tier. But they don’t, do they? Because they need money. Real money. Not play money.


So? I don't see how that's germaine. The Luna people paid money up front AND paid tier. If they lose the lease at the end of the term, so? They got to make money with vendors and shoppers. I'm not aware of people flocking to Ulrika's lot to buy social democracy, I think what they buy there are animations LOL.


Then you understand that you do something that Nberg doesn’t – you pay hard cash up front, and they didn’t. For the life of me, I fail to understand why that isn’t of value to you, such that you are bending over backwards to spin it, whitewash it, play it down, and make it sound like it's just one of many wonderful varieties of gameplay with this wonderful company that basically pays YOU to play the game (as we know from the other threads). Sure, there are varieties of property relations and varieties of ownership and operation plans in SL. But at the core is the highest value – real dollars for land that I can dispose of, either develop or re-sell. The other types of arrangements are add-ons, and they must perforce be subsidized by the primary valued activity.

FAR FROM the average player subsidizing the land barons due to the alleged "regressive tax" -- AKA bulk discounts -- another thing is happening. Paying customers who pay US dollars for cash are subsidizing experiments like Nberg. The company lets them waive that initial cost because they are willing to keep some of these things as decorations. The minute they let them spread beyond a dozen or so examples, they'd go broke.

Cristiano, stop for a moment, and imagine a game which is all Nbergs. It would go broke.
Try to think of it that way for one second, and you'll realize that we are in fact subsidizing Nberg. This might be good or bad -- every society has it's non-profit things like the Red Cross that should be funded. But should we subsidize something that attacks us and wants us to pay more taxes or be penalized? And I speak collectively again about Nberg because I see no denizens of Nberg rushing to this forum to disassociate themselves from Ulrika's punitive politicies.



I saw that you said that, and I couldn’t agree more. What you fail to see, however, is that you have to push back, and not just celebrate Ulrika as a voice of diversity.


Ah-hah. Now we’re getting somewhere. I finally see why you haven’t rallied to my side. You, too, have that lurking problem, caused by, perhaps, an old Marxist professor in your college with an infectious mind-meme, or simply by the zeitgeist of our age. If I’m making you angry right now, use it as an opportunity to think.

Why do you believe that value is finite, and can only be distributed and redistributed equitably or non-equitably? Do you realize that position is an article of faith, not a fact? You have bought businesses, improved land, added your creativity and labour, and created value, have you not? Can you not respect that?

No, or you wouldn’t write a sense like “parasitic extraction of wealth.” It betrays a lurking belief that one person gets rich, it’s always at the expense of others.

Barring fraud or criminal multilevel marketing schemes, why would buying and reselling land being a parasitic practice extracting wealth from people?

They’re grownups, and if they don’t want to pay those prices, nobody is twisting their arm. Indeed, the great thing about this game is you can play it homeless and penniless and still have a blast producting and scripting prims. There’s nothing parasitic about a person who works with land and money, rather than scripts and prims, and multiples value with their effort and creativity. I often stop and admire the way Anshe has laid out and priced parcels – it’s not an easy task to accomplish, as you know if you’ve done it.



Feh, nervous nellies at the gates, with too much Chomsky and too many Marxist professors! We’ll just have to disagree on this. I see nothing immoral whatsoever. What would be immoral is if players paid them when it was against their conscience – and evidently they did. They did what was doable. If players couldn’t band together to get deals from the Lindens like Nberg, if they couldn’t band together just to pool tier and get discounts and thwart the barons, if they couldn’t get large purchases collectively at auction through a group buyer and then NOT churn land, then they are the “immoral” ones lacking in human solidarity, not the land barons.



Well, maybe you should have gutted it out? If no one bought from the land barons, they would lower their prices. They would stop buying at auction. And Lindens would stop rolling out earth – but what happened instead of letting this natural equilibrium be reached, you all panicked, the GOM closed (over some incident that was supposed to be an isolated instance of fraud but which is widely believed to be because of a flood of Lindens for sale) and the Lindens were shamed into rolling out more land to make customers happy. In the end, they can’t sacrifice their bottom line for playing at ideal society.


Erm, how do you figure I made that mistake? Do I need to explain for the 10th time that I am a person who holds a lot of land and is doing two joint projects. One is non-profit, the other is for-profit but with a social dimension to build a shared community. The second could hopefully pay for the first. Both are not likely to make much in dwell or profit of any kind because I am new and learning. Please, would you STOP the condescending attitude and the explaining of the obvious? It’s good that you’re willing to play mentor, but you need to think a lot more about why you found the actions of the landbarons “immoral” and “extractive”. They aren't! They're normal! They do it because they CAN.

There is no price gouging unless people are willing to pay big prices.
There is no prostitution unless people buy and sell sex.
There is no malls unless people shop.

Come on people, smile on your brother, everybody get together, right now. Only you and your fellow citizen are responsible for the evils in SL – no landbarons, not pimps, not mall-builders are responsible, only you.



Do I know it. But do you, really?



I think in part we are saying the same thing – that we don’t agree with Ulrika at root and that her theory is dangerous to landbarons as well as groups. But you’re not seeing the point about them skipping steps and letting her use the group as a bully pulpit. And I haven’t said anything false that you’ve been able to demonstrate – it’s just that you can’t seem to admit that a deal is a deal – they skipped a step.

I’d be much more impressed if they made a collective purchase and pooled up their tier, and then did their social democracy thingie. Then they’d be putting their money where their mouth is.



I do have to ask why the offer is not good, not because I wish it, but because we have to understand what’s up here. Why isn’t it a standard feature? Because it would be too expensive for the Lindens to maintain. So does it cost the Lindens something – if multiplied, if not now? Surely. Did they get something for nothing? Yes.

I rest my case.

You're absolutely right. But people can skip them. I sometimes think it's important to leave a long, documented, length argumentation in a forum for posterity in a pioneer world.

Hey Rock. That was a great post. It's really nice to have folks like you involved in the project.

In RL I always vote Democrat, or just left of Democrat (like the Green Party antiwar activist David McReynolds in NYC) (and I think many underestimate the value of a left-right distinction, even as I note that "cluster thinking" leads people to stick to parties whose positions they don't always share). I'm a strong proponent of individual rights and capitalism with social responsibility. I would never describe myself as a socialist or marxist, or a Republican,a right-winger or a red-neck, rather I'm a capitalist that believes the system should continue to protect individual rights and to provide incentives for social responsibility and a thriving non-profit sector (liberal democracy). I also believe in bringing together many people of different backgrounds and having them argue positions to the mat, because in the end, you have to decide and go forward with reasoned positions, not live with muddle compromises. As for multilateralism, it has its place, but when overriding moral imperatives of stopping genocide (such as in Sudan) present themselves, it is important to be willing to take reasonable unilateral action.

I also would like to reiterate to everyone that my views (whether stated or imagined) have nothing to do with Club Fame or any other project. Club Fame is in fact comprised of various individuals who are free of ideological preoccupations in their activity because they focus on architectural esthetics and story-telling. It has truly become a collaboration of art and culture free of politics. If all the members of Fame banded together, I suppose they could vote me out, but they haven’t done that yet.

For those who would like to find out who I really am and what my projects and game concepts are really about, head out to Club Fame this weekend. Right now I'm planning our contest to for the best ice sculpture and devising plans for making a builder’s society of experimental builders in the neighbourhood. It's a swell place with some really neat people making great architecture and culture who are generally free of time-wasting political arguments. We just put up new seating and a giant snowflake! I think you'll find the classic but innovative building design and the discussion of creative and collaborative enterprise in the game the perfect cure for a black forum thread begun by an inciter of class-hatred whose utopian ideals have now been adequately challenged.

My head hurts.

Look me up in-world, and drop me a landmark. I'd like to see what kinds of builds you guys are creating. Perhaps I'll gain some ideas.

Hmmpf, typical responce, "But people can skip them" so in essence what would be the point of replying with such length. When short answers spread over a series of responses could effectively create a much more productive debate.

By doing what I mentioned earlier you are like the Conductor Prokoliev creating a symphony of words to dazzle and confuse yet with convoluted thinking.

Interesting ploy and with that I shall leave you with your banter and bid you good day.

Sincerely, Shadow Weaver

I said, "Good day!"

Nice Fes (That 70's Show)!

***yawns*** Hasn’t this topic been beaten to death already?

Get off of your "land baron" obsession and go back to your "SL government" obsession.

If $203 per month is such a GREAT deal I suggest you go out, buy a sim and pay it yourself for a while. You obviously know very little about sales as this has been a very successful in encouraging residents to tier up when they never would have before.