front page picts

Jonq,

I think LL would love it if we could as a very diverse and clearly multi-cultural community could devise a way to 'censor' ourselves in a way that all opinions get their rightful air time and no one leaves feeling left out or isolated.

In some ways, the problem can be expanded to that of SL itself. What sort of things can be done so people can create content in world without feeling in appropiately shunted aside in a way full of disrespect and favoritism?

After all, SL is about expression as much as anything.

I know I'm kind of broadening the scope a bit much, but I'd like to think, in a way, that's what we're all trying to do here.

Siggy, everyone around here deserves respect.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Exactly, but this thread started with a discussion of how to fix the problem, or conversely does a problem even exist. Early on I stated if LL doesn't see a problem, then there is no problem.

My point about censor ship was based on the community responses, not LLs response.

Blaze, people are lashing out at you because of your approach also. I mean you have already come out with this attitude of we are wrong, you are right, and that you are going to stick up for something whether you agree with it or not simply because it is contrary to what you percieve the "majority" thinks.

So yeah Blaze, hehe.. you are ticking people off. Some are going to respond harshly, but you have really, really been pushing people hard. And you stated very well what can happen when a person is pushed like that.

Personally, I think being called a "forum nanny" is not that bad. And in so many words you *are* being that way. I wouldn't call being one a bad thing, but it can get annoying to some people some times. We have other forum nannies around too. But we are also all adults here. And being constantly told "how to behave" is aggravating. Especially coming from someone who "supports" one of the main persons that is the cause of why so many are on edge and lashing out these days.

If you want people to stop insulting you, then stop insulting them. Which you are doing, even if it is very subtle.

When you factor in blaze's own admission about blaze being an alt for the forums, his admissions of taking on "unpopular views" simply because they are unpopular, and his title of "cognitive dissonance boy", it certainly would appear he is gaming the forums - or as some label it "shit stirring". He himself has stated that he games the forums:



He either wants to be a mod really, really bad, has an extremely odd sense of wrong and right, or has a really sick sense of humor. The frustrating part is, he appears to think he is a do-gooder, when in fact he cannot help himself from injecting little, snide, trolling reminders about how "unfair" the forums are, in various threads before and since Prokofy got suspended. I don't know how he expects others to let that issue die if he keeps bringing it up. Everything IS NOT about Prokofy.

One must wonder; if the forums are really as bad as blaze makes them out to be, why one would have anything to do with them?

People are already free to create any content they want. They are also free to sell it or give it away. Why invent a problem where there isn't one?

I buy things from designers I've never heard of becuase I like their products. I don't buy from some designers that are very well known, because their tastes don't match mine.

People will always flock to what they like, and the price they like, despite fads, popularity or whatever. New people are coming in each day that don't know a Pixel Doll from an SL-Mart, and they will buy from whichever one they like, or is affordable from them.

Anyone in SL can self-promote themselves. Anyone in SL can, if they work at it, make lots of friends. Anyone in SL, with the right attitude or the right amount of work, can run a successful business.

Folks that are inventive and create wonderful things, will get noticed by folks that like creative and wonderful things. SL's website has very, very little to do with it.

I suppose for the same reason people cannot put someone who annoys them on ignore and have done with him-people like the drama.

Well, I disagree, I think 'forum nanny' was meant as an insult, but hey I'll take it as a compliment and thank Chip Midnight.

Thanks Chip!

As for the other part.. there is a mentality that thinks because I wish to criticize a mindset or a group which people do not have to belong to, then if you have a passing association with that group than I am personally attacking you.

What people don't understand is that my criticism of a group is not the problem they are really worried about. The problem is they disagree with my criticism and wish to use the group aspect as a way to shut me down.

For example - let's say I were to criticize all "billboard" makers (or tringo event holders, or land barons, or land scanners.. whatever the bad guy du jour is) in SL. I'd be criticizing a group of people .. but I'm pretty sure everyone would say that's OK to be as insulting as you wish. Not a lot of people like billboard makers!

However, if I were to criticize all people giving away free content in SL... well, that's not popular and therefore it's a 'hate crime' or whatever inaccurate language is being currently used.

And again, it all boils down to an appeal to popularity rather than a discussion of logic and rational thought. The issue is not the criticism of the group, but rather the popularity of the criticism itself.

This makes me sad. Because the majority is not always right... hence my billions of people eat at mcdonalds.. why don't you?

Like does not equal dislike.

Liking drama (which I do not, if that is what you were implying), is a far cry from saying the forums are a horrible place (in other words, voicing a dislike of the state of the forums) as some sort of mantra, over and over again. I really hope that the "gaming" doesn't go that deep.

Well, nolan, I think this discussion is about the home page picts and censorhip.

The question is, can we apply any of the things we have learned or was it all for naught?

What have we learned?

+ Be respectful of ideas, even if we don't like them
+ The majority isn't always right
+ Be mindful of multiple, clashing communities

Unfortunatley, democratic vote is the easiest thing in the world to measure. From a development perspective it may become necessary to use that on the home page, if it isn't already.

See Blaze. Right there you are insulting me and others. You are sitting there boldly telling me what I think, what I'm "worried about". So basically anything I say means nothing because you have already decided what my answer should be. And if my answer is not the one you wrote for me, then I am wrong.



If that were true, then where are all the people that should be ganging up on me because I agreed that a flood of free items could potentially hurt the SL economy? I did not state that my opinion was fact. I only gave my concerns and my "opinions". I did not presume to tell others they were flat out wrong. I also did explain what I do and do not support about free items in SL. I had a discussion on my opinions which believe it or not were *not* the same as the majority of posters in that thread.

So where is the mob to lynch me Blaze?

I think diversity is one of the things that makes SL so great. Not only the diverse types of people that use this medium to interact, but the diverse ideas and atmospheres created within the world, and even on the forums. The more the merrier.

But, there does come a place where a line must be drawn. LL is not a government body sworn to uphold free speech. They are a business with a bottom line. They have employees who rely on a paycheck to feed themselves and their families. When our (the residents') expressions begin threatening that bottom line, it's time to draw that line.

Snapping our images to the front page of the forum is fun. It's like people in a studio audience waving to the camera as it scans the crowd. (Though they always seem to wave at the monitor instead, which is silly.) When some jackass uses that opportunity to drop his or her pants, or flip off the camera, maybe it's time to reconsider allowing people the priveledge (not right) to see themselves on camera. Whether this has already happened is debatable. Whether it will happen is just a matter of time, in my opinion. I don't have that much faith in humanity, being a part of it myself.

As for people being able to create content without feeling shunted or as if favoritism is going on... it's already happening. Those that so often cry Favoritism! often seem to be those who don't want an equal shot, but rather they want to be slung to the forefront without having to pay any dues to get there. They want all the works many of us have already done to be wiped out so they can come in on even footing. That's not fair to those who have done the work, and were lucky enough to begin this journey before the rest of us.

I knew nothing about alphas or layers or any of that when I started SL, though I was already familiar with GIMP from having used Linux for so long and doing photo manipulation. I took one of Fey Brightwillow's classes on clothing creation and learned the rest by screwing up. My business, which is now pretty successful, started with 1 vendor of t-shirts on the porch of my 512 plot. I worked my way up from there. No one favored me or propelled me forward. I didn't and don't rely on my buddies to prop me up. That same opportunity is there for every other person in SL that feels like applying themselves and learning.

And people take your little barbs as insults too. When you are spraying your insult dipped bullets with your holy machine gun, you hit people sometimes. It's obvious blaze, that you think if you indirectly attack people, it's ok. It's not, and the responses you get are evidence of this.

I know, I know. "If you respond to me as if I was speaking to you, you have a BIG ego". Clever rules you've set up for your game.

Well, Pendari, I did say "what people" don't understand.

To be honest, I'm not really sure what it is that you do or don't understand.

If I really had to put someone in that group, I wouldn't have put you (you seem generally reasonable) and rather would have put Pathfinder Linden who explicitly came up with the rule no dissing groups.

I think a lot of people feel grieved because they think I'm referring to them in particular. I'm not. I'm talking about a vague, amorphous mindset/groupthink.

Though once I came down a particular group, which in hindsight was a mistake.

Ahh..but you are wrong. I love a good bill board, and tringo is wonderful if folks enjoy it. However, land barons and land scanners is another matter. Both make land more expensive for others, so I would have to say "boo" to those. But with any of them, I wouldn't think it ok to be overly insulting to them, but I would think it's fine to exspress your opinion about the effects of their operations and their business practices.

I thi nk it boils down to nothing more than personal opinions for the most part. If everytime a group of folks have similar opinions, it's labeled "mob mentality", that is ridiculous and counter-productive.

This is exactly the type of statement that gets folks attention. "we"? Please don't speak to me as if you were my 3rd grade home room teacher. You really need a different approach if you're planning on getting me to consider your ideas. You are talking to educated adults here. If you sit there and type out stuff that makes you sound like you think you're wiser, better, or more morally correct than others, you're bound to get a backlash, and most people will not get any other message you are trying to convey.

Start with your approach. If anything, after months of the machine guns blazing mentality displayed by this forum's most egregious example of poor approach, it's that is the tone of one's approach which determines what the tone of the reaction will be. If one sets an insultive tone, especially one dressed in "sagacity" and as if they hold the moral high ground, then expecting respondants to behave like angels after they feel demeaned from the get-go, is really a fool's errand.

Last.....nail......almost.....there!

"Forum Nanny" was meant as an accurate characterization of the role you're trying to play. When you have nothing to contribute but constant criticizing of other people's posts... not the ideas contained in them but their style and manner... you're not adding anything useful. The forum already has moderators. I don't care what the group thinks. I think you're a troll. Since you've been taken to task about your behavior about four thousand times already and continue to do the same thing over and over again, I must conclude that you are being deliberate in trying to annoy people, and me in particular. How is that useful again? I must have missed that part.

And I think you'd probably be better off thinking less about me.

Stop calling following me around the forums acting like a disapproving parent and invoking my name in threads I'm not even participating in and I'd be happy to ignore you completely.

Deal!

At some point, we merely have to agree to disagree and part ways. I am all for that.

It really boggles the mind to see that I don't even have to be in a thread to become it's whipping boy.

When I first came to these forums six months ago and asked an innocent question about a graphics card problem, I was greeted with a condescending, snarky barbed remark about the problem all being mine, and my card, and my ignorance that it wasn't the right card, etc. Yet it was one of the two cards that the Lindens themselves recommended on the site, and it was, I was to discover, a card that had "known issues" that a number of players kept harping on Lindens about. That was my introduction to the forums -- arrogant, condescending tekkie types who haze and "break in" newbies. I was go to on and see this type of persona go after people with poor English, people for whom English isn't their native language, people who don't have technical skills or higher education, etc.

blaze is absolutely right that I feel that far from being some kind of odd hermit with a contrarian view, I feel I represent a lot more "common sense" and the attitude of the average non-tekkie person that any of the forum regs.

And I quite agree with Jake that it *is* the problem of group think, and the chief feature of this group think and mob mentality right now is that "I attacked an entire community" or "I deserve to be banned" or "I am envious and bitter." I have nothing to be envious and bitter *of* -- I surely am not. I am not attacking an entire community because I view SL as a giant amorphous and diverse arena and the attitudes I singled out for criticizm belong merely to a tiny but vocal minority at this point, represented by forum jackals. Oh, calling someone forum jackals is name calling? Well, believe it or not, I learned the word "fucktard" from you all -- I had never heard it before. And I also learned by example -- you can call people that, and no one will do anything, at least not right away.

People think if you keep repeating something over and over and over again, the din and the uproar will equal the truth -- and they think that truth is that I attacked a whole community, I got what I deserved, I must be shunnted and eliminated. Yet that is a silly caricature.

My forum posts, especially given they're so long, speak for themselves. You can' easily start at the beginning, and read them, and easily see that I didn't do the things for which I'm accused. It wasn't me who first published a thinly-disguised personal attack, or first took forum disputes from the game into the forums, or who first launched a hugh broadside attack against a group, trying to take away bulk discounts for land barons, or who put some monstrous ugly build in a basin. All those things were done by others, and at first I was merely a bystander with my eyes bugged out.

What's different is not only that I decided to speak out, I decided to tough out the fierce opposition and cruelty that I faced as backlash. I didn't have an idea when I started that it would mean taking away my notion of a Second Life through RL disclosure, and even taking away my land -- I actually thought SL was bigger, hardier, and freer than that. I still hope it is.

Basically, there's a system of guilds, apprenticing, and hazing at work by this small minority and it's something that does bear criticism. It doesn't mean there's a conspiracy. It doesn't mean the people are evil. It doesn't mean they aren't talented. It doesn't mean they control the game totally. It just means they do feel they can set the tone and control some major economic decisions or at least influence them, and therefore they deserve to have an alternative. That's it. The hysteria this has provoked is all out of proportion to the reality of the situation. The more they keep saying that "it's not his ideas, it's the delivery" and the more they keep saying "no one in the history of SL has ever been so bitter" blah blah, the more I -- and actually quite a few others -- are reinforced in our belief that in fact the hammer hit the nail, and in fact what we are witnessing is a classic case of "founding fathers' syndrome" of people who can't let go of something they founded.

The pictures on the front page is a wonderful thing the Lindens created, with Snapzilla's help. It does not yet have a problem in it that needs fixing. Tcoz's picture sitting up there for 9 minutes or 20 minutes can't possibly be the horrible chill on new subscribers that most people think.

The pictures on the site don't have to be reviewed by busy Lindens. We know that fully in place already is a system of vociferous, voracious, vindictive net nannies right here on the forums who will keep a vengeful eye on these pictures. We know *the minute* the see something "inappropriate" especially if it comes from one of their enemies or someone with unpopular, contrarian views, they'll be all over it like white on rice. In fact, we can count on at least a small cadre of hardy lifers who will keep flipping between their game and that front page to keep a weather eye on the situation.

We know the Lindens only have to put a little red button on to that front page to free themselves forever of the modding and filtering function needed, and don't even require a PG/M distinction, because this Legion of Second Life will get on to it in a heartbeat.

Those who have brought up keys, IPs, emails, names -- identifiers -- have been vindicated in part by Robin saying she'd take a look at the issue of email addresses going out of SL. That's it. That's all that is required -- just a bit of awareness, not a feeding frenzy.

What I find most interesting about your post, Prokofy, is that your views are getting more moderate and *gasp* reasonable. I still disagree strongly with most of what you think are important issues and your interpretations of things but I can see you making a concerted effort to tone them down rhetorically. Good for you. Maybe there's hope for you yet. As for your attempting to play the victim, that never fails to be amusing. Your post history speaks for itself in that regard.

I believe this thread has outlived its usefulness and it is being closed. Please remember that the SL Forums are for the discussion of Second Life. I would also like to remind you all to maintain a respect for the opinions and positions of other people and refrain from personally attacking them.