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Unfortunately, common sense breaks down when dealing with complex issues and questions.

And besides, my 'common' sense tells me that Prokofy knows more than probably 99% of the people on these forums what the untechnical (the 'common' type) person wants out of SL and he was merely trying to be an advocate for them.

My 'common' sense tells me that this is a good thing. My 'common' sense tells me that there this in an entrenched minority who don't necessarily feel that SL is for the commoner, but rather a plaything for the highly technical and talented few who have the gumption to figure out all the ins and outs of SL.

Therefore, my 'common sense' tells me people who repeatedly disagree with Prokofy are ones who are ranting.

Am I right? Should I be able to say STFU? Absolutely not.

Is everyone else right because there are more people who disagree with Prok than agree?

Well, billions of people eat at McDonalds ... I guess we all should then, eh?

No, not you. But you defend the very person who epitomizes everything you seem to dislike... personal assaults and condescending attitudes. And THAT I find ironic.


Anywho... back on topic!

i have one. how about 100 snapshots of colourful puppets! down with billboards! buy my land!

OH THAT'S IT MISTER...YOU ARE GOING DOWN!!!!

Actually I was just thinking about this. Taco Rubio and I have opposite opinions on just about everything (including upskirt AV photography). I mean we fought like cats and dogs! And yet, we have each other on MSN and have friendly chats regularly. This is not exactly what you would call a hostile reaction to opposing ideas.

It's exceedingly frustrating when people's anger towards someone expressing venom, lies, character assassinations, and baseless conspiracy theories are dismissed as an aversion to opposing ideas or "mob mentality." I've shown I can handle opposing ideas as have so many of the wonderful people here in the forums. No, this is something different.

My reference to common sense being the judge was directly related to this statement of yours Blaze:




I *do* think common sense alerts a person as to whether what they are reading is "ranting" or just "contrary opinion".

jake,

i'm totally with you that there is a mob mentality on this forum. over time it becomes socially acceptable to attack a certain group of players indescrinately on the forum regardless of the content of their post. it's a popularity game with the back patting commitee. while on the one hand posting assanine tributes to the human behind the keyboard, a great deal of players on this forum ignore the mute function and instead chase around clearly mentally unfit players around the forum playing kick the dog.

you can try to reason with them, but your unpopularity will make your words unappreciated. what you should do is satire and mockery. it's immature but it's fun. and it gets more results.

good luck.

Satire and mockery is just a passive aggressive form of personal attacks.

If you see something you don't understand or think you understand but not enough to have something logical and respectful to say, then it is best simply to ignore and move on.

it's not passive at all.

That's definitely what we should all strive for, Blaze. When someone falls far short of that on a continual basis over the course of many months, I'd say it's safe to call it ranting. Your mileage my vary.

Speaking of satire, the following is a fictional dramatization.

...

What's your strong opinion again Blaze? I didn't think you'd made up your mind on what that was yet.. There hadn't been enough contrary back and forth yet to decide which side of the fence you wish to sit on yet.

I don't think you really have any opinions, but decide where you sit at the table after everyone else has sat down - for the sole reason of being on the opposite side...

Either way - you don't bring anything to it... if you don't like what I'm saying - don't read my posts -- move along.

Siggy.

Siggy, I have a very very strong opinion - and that opinion is that we should be able to express our ideas in a rational forum full of intelligence and thoughtful discourse rather than one which mainly consists of a continual barrage of offensive language, random illiterate images, thinly disguised and rarely accurate satire and mockery.

I have expressed this opinion by systematically following up on and supporting anyone who dares express a concept or opinion which is unpoular or contrary to that of the community.

In fact I have even gone far over the bend in supporting Prokofy, even when I realised that his continual spouting of personal remarks and individually targeted diatribes were just as bad as what everyone else was doing. I justified this as a type of forum karma .. his existence really was just a backlash that had been building up for many many months.

In doing all this, a lot of people have reacted negatively towards me because they have troubles juggling the rather complex notion of "putting yourself in someone elses shoes" and "seperating the idea from the person".

While I'm not surprised that the cognitive dissonance generated is hard to swallow, I'd really like to believe that as a community we can develop tools to deal with it without having to resort to blindly raving witch hunts and lynch mobs..

The self appointed forum nanny role is getting rather tired. What you see as going out of your way to support unpopular opinions (and by your own admission ones you don't even personally agree with) most people rightfully see as trolling.

Well personally Blaze, I'm getting rather tired of myself and others in SL being continually insulted, lashed out at, dropped into conspiracy theories, and baited by someone who has been doing it since almost day one on the forums. I'm tired of being told that when this person makes me angry, I'm just part of some lynch mob mentality. It's just bullpocky! I speak my own mind and most others do here as well. Most of us can disagree and still get along just fine. We have this ability to "express our ideas in a rational forum full of intelligence and thoughtful discourse". The fact that you cannot see that is your fault, not ours.

I'm sorry, but if there is a common factor about an issue that is wrong, and many people claim to see it, then most likely it really is THAT FACTOR that is wrong, and not the many people who claim to see it.

Personally I think you are preaching to the wrong choir, and that you have mistaken who the underdog is in this situation.

So the "opinion" that you're expressing is actually that you enjoy being contrary, whether it's wrong or right, and you will support whatever goes against the majority, whether it is wrong or right.

So you actually don't practice what you preach at all. You aren't out to keep these forums civilized and intellectually stimulating, you're out to stir shit. There's a name for that.. what it is again? Oh yeah, shit stirrer.

(And save the tsking cuz I used a bad word. I have a dad already, as most of us do.)

This thread has outlived it's onTopic usefullness and thus is patiently awaiting the arrival of the Mods.

Or -

Let's get back on topic.

Well, I agree that Prokofy was a problem. Absolutely. I think I've now said that about 58 times, in fact. That's on top of the 27 other time I said he deserves to be banned.

However, he is not the only individual here who was personally very offensive.

The difference is that his ideas were unpopular, so he was the one that got isolated and so he aggressively got worse and worse in terms of his rebuttals. Isolation has a way of doing that to you.

Look at tcoz.. A fairly bright and reasonable person who's thoughts on the key issue are wholey accurate and yet because few people agree around here (imagine we were in a community of privacy adovcates, he'd be the popular one and everyone else would be the troll), he gets isolated.

This pushed him to a point where he struck back, much like a cornered dog would do. I honestly couldn't blame him, considering how much people were baiting him.

And Chip, would you please stop trying to start something? Where do you think these long, drawn out flames come from? If you have something reasonable to say, say it, but don't call me a 'forum nanny'. I am merely expressing an opinion much like everyone else does, just in a somewhat more elaborate manner.

Yes, we are way off topic.

However, in a way, we aren't.

Because the question really is one of censorship, community values, and how it all works.

Are there any lessons we can apply to forum censorship to the home page picts? I hope so. Hopefully all this grief wasn't for naught.

No Blaze.. he got "isolated" because of his attitude and approach. Many people around here have ideas that are "unpopular". The reason you don't see a huge backlash against them is because they have an ability to express their differences without insulting anyone who may possibly dare to disagree with *them*.



That is still up for debate. Especially in my eyes after the response we got from Cory in the town hall.

And no, people reacted to him again because of the way he presented the information. In no way did he come out and simply express his thoughts. He came out guns blazing(no pun intended) and put people immediatly on the defensive.

No matter what a person has to say, their initial approach to the situation is going to make all the difference in the world on the outcome.

I disagree. It's not how he said it that was the problem. For example:



Right. I stick up for free speech and I get called a 'self appointed forum nanny'.

Couldn't he merely have said "We already have moderators who's responsibility it is to moderate these forums. "?

However, I dont see any backlash against the author of this statement. That's because his opinion is a popular one and he can get as offensive as he wishes and not suffer any isolation .. and he knows it.

Because while Chip's stand on censorship and the rights of the minority might be a bit unfortunate, his people skills are obviously fairly strong.

Well let me just clarify one thing. In this thread, the Ideas and statements I am "defending" are Tcoz. And even that is a stretch. I have not addressed his ideas on their merits. I haven't said he was right. What I have said is that the fact that his sign appeared on the front page does not bother me. I see no need to get my knickers in a twist simply because some conceiveably anti-linden message gets put up on the front page of the web site.

What I said was that I don't see this as a problem that needs fixing. I also observed that censorship happens when a group of people set out to fix a problem with "bad speech." We decide aas a group something is bad for the community and then we censor it. I advocated that answer to bad speech is more speech, without personal attacks.

I never mention prokofy, it has been the assumption of many on this thread that he is the person I am discussing. My comments are not aimed that narrowly. Is hould think this apparent since I spelled it out thre posts ago, yet people come back to attack my defense of Prokofy. Its like he is the hot button here, my god. And its not apparent why I think they way I do?

Jonquille I specifically stated in a post that I did not think the mobbing that occurs on the forums was groupthink. But whatever the source or reasoning behind the opinion, people react like a mob. The most outspoken example of course is the Shunning of Prokofy. In this thread I point out that even though we are talking about tcoz and whether or not every contrary opinion needs to be censored from the hompage photos.

Its like if Prok is not mentioned in a thread, people need to put him in there. To me one of the key questions this thread raised was regarding censorship. Now I find myself as usual mounting a defense of what ever I said about prokofy with people trying to explaint to me why they hate him? Are you trying to convince me you are right? What gives? MAybe we should start another thread.

I don't believe that anything SL chooses to put on their front page, or chooses not to put on their front page, could be considered censorship. Any more than Cambell's Soup would be censoring me by not putting me on the label of every soup can.

This may sound a little wierd - but at least Prokofy has a view and an opinion - one that they passionately think is true.

Irrespective of whether I agree/disagree with it - if I think it's right or wrong - or like/dislike the way it is presented at least they have their own opinions to express. They don't need to wait for someone else to have an unpopular or contrary to jump on the bandwagon with.

And for that - they actually deserve a little respect... moreso than an ambulance chaser.

Siggy.