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Do you believe in ghosts?

Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
10-18-2005 12:22
Once, in another country, a man I met claimed some carved figures came to life and took a relative away. Indisputably, the relative *was* gone.

He pointed the figures out to me - all were made of wood, approximately three feet tall.

He was (and still is, I presume) what is called an 'animist'.

Who here would believe his tale?
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
10-18-2005 12:23
From: Azrael Baphomet
There's good reason to think that consciousness may not be reducible to matter, at least according to philosopher David Chalmers:
Is his theory testable?

~Ulrika~
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Ananda Sandgrain
+0-
Join date: 16 May 2003
Posts: 1,951
10-18-2005 12:23
Here we have the classic dismissal in action: One person experiences a thing, another doesn't, so naturally the person who did experience it is crazy. Nonsense!

The rational thing is to observe what you observe. To see things as they are, instead of coming up with all kinds of reasons to deny it or to explain how what happened didn't happen.

I'm not expecting you to believe in this just because I say it is. If one hasn't observe a phenomenon then there's no reason to believe in it. But I have. From my perspective, you'd be the irrational one. But really it's just that we don't have a shared reality in this area.
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Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
10-18-2005 12:24
From: Creami Cannoli
Blankets statements cause a lot of problems and misunderstandings.
Isn't that a blanket statement? :D

~Ulrika~
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Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
10-18-2005 12:28
From: Ananda Sandgrain
Here we have the classic dismissal in action: One person experiences a thing, another doesn't, so naturally the person who did experience it is crazy. Nonsense!
Not so fast. Is your experience testable or reproduceable? If not, then I'm voting for erroneously attributing random phenomenon to supernatural causes. :)

~Ulrika~
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Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
10-18-2005 12:31
From: Ananda Sandgrain
Here we have the classic dismissal in action: One person experiences a thing, another doesn't, so naturally the person who did experience it is crazy. Nonsense!

The rational thing is to observe what you observe. To see things as they are, instead of coming up with all kinds of reasons to deny it or to explain how what happened didn't happen.

I'm not expecting you to believe in this just because I say it is. If one hasn't observe a phenomenon then there's no reason to believe in it. But I have. From my perspective, you'd be the irrational one. But really it's just that we don't have a shared reality in this area.


It's not a dismissal, Ananda. It's simply looking at the truth of the matter. You can't prove that what you experienced is what you assert it is. Because you can't prove it the only thing that is absolutely known is that you are guessing about what it was based on pre-existing cultural influences (the idea that past life experiences might be possible was already known to you). Something happened to you that you can't explain which you associated with something you already knew about. That's fine, but that isn't proof. It's a leap of faith. Come back and assert that past life experiences are true when you can prove it. Until then I'll think it's cool that you had a meaningful experience but I'll chalk your explanation up for exactly what it is... a guess with zero substance to back it up. You could be absolutely right but there's not enough there to rationally consider it, and as a result no logical reason to just accept the assertion. The fact that these types of occurances are common and cross-cultural only makes it more likely that the explanation is equally common and mundane. People tend to go with the more romantic and fantastical explanations.
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Chance Abattoir
Future Rockin' Resmod
Join date: 3 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,898
10-18-2005 12:31
Whenever I have car problems and I take my car to the mechanic, suddenly the car doesn't display its problems anymore. The second I drive away from the mechanic, the problems start again.

I blame Ulrika and her whore-God, Science. :D
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Katja Marlowe
Registered User
Join date: 15 Apr 2005
Posts: 421
10-18-2005 12:32
From: Kevn Klein
I'm not interested in what the church taught in this thread. I really was hoping we could talk about supernatural beings rather than religion(man's understanding of God).

The question regarding ghosts is not a question of religion, as can be demonstrated by the fact some who don't believe in God do believe in ghosts/spirits/angels/demons or whatever you want to call these beings without a physical body.


Well I'm confused then why you would refute the whole the earth being flat being of science and not Bible. *scratches head* But okay.

And, I do beg to differ on it not being a question of religion. Not a question of Christianity? Sure, I can buy that. However, scores of other belief systems, everything from Wiccanism to believers in your basic tarot readers (and yes, I do believe that some people treat tarot and psychics as a religious structure and faith), from Judaism to Buddhism, incorporate supernatural into their belief systems. And these belief systems _are_ religions. So, it is in fact, more a question still of _religion_ as defined by Merriam Webster Online

Main Entry: re·li·gion
Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
- re·li·gion·less adjective


I mean, I get where you're coming from. Just as someone with an English and Communication degree, I tend to get a bit hung up on the impression and meanings that words are conveying, rather than the sometimes hard to read intent behind the words.
Chance Abattoir
Future Rockin' Resmod
Join date: 3 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,898
10-18-2005 12:34
Although my crazy Chinese mechanic once figured out that my fuel pump wasn't working by attacking my car with a giant rubber mallet (Not kidding). The vibrations caused by the mallet tricked the computer into thinking the fuel pump worked and allowed the car to start for a few seconds.
_____________________
"The mob requires regular doses of scandal, paranoia and dilemma to alleviate the boredom of a meaningless existence."
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Katja Marlowe
Registered User
Join date: 15 Apr 2005
Posts: 421
10-18-2005 12:34
From: Creami Cannoli
"To just make a blanket stament like that is wrong."

That is what I eventually followed the comment I made with, that is what I was calling stupid, not Ulrika. Blankets statements cause a lot of problems and misunderstandings.


They do. Also saying "the stupidest comment I have ever heard" tends to cause problems. I mean, really...I've heard worse comments made that were even dumber while hosting events at the G.
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
10-18-2005 12:38
From: Chance Abattoir
I blame Ulrika and her whore-God, Science. :D
It sounds like you forgot to sacrifice a microscope before you drove off.

~Ulrika~
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Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Creami Cannoli
Please don't eat me....
Join date: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 414
10-18-2005 12:40
From: Katja Marlowe
They do. Also saying "the stupidest comment I have ever heard" tends to cause problems. I mean, really...I've heard worse comments made that were even dumber while hosting events at the G.



Comments from me or just in general?
And as soon as I posted it, I figured that comment would catch grief. I should have edited it out.
Memory Harker
Girl Anachronism
Join date: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 393
As the late Mr. Dick put it:
10-18-2005 12:42
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

And in testing this premise, I have sadly determined that [a certain poster who shall remain nameless, so's not to get myself whacked] is all too real.


*sigh*


You know what I *like*, though? The way that ol' Chip Midnight thinks! :)
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
10-18-2005 12:44
From: Memory Harker
And in testing this premise, I have sadly determined that [a certain poster who shall remain nameless, so's not to get myself whacked] is all too real.
You just made the list.

~Ulrika~
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Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
10-18-2005 12:44
From: Katja Marlowe
Well I'm confused then why you would refute the whole the earth being flat being of science and not Bible. *scratches head* But okay.

And, I do beg to differ on it not being a question of religion. Not a question of Christianity? Sure, I can buy that. However, scores of other belief systems, everything from Wiccanism to believers in your basic tarot readers (and yes, I do believe that some people treat tarot and psychics as a religious structure and faith), from Judaism to Buddhism, incorporate supernatural into their belief systems. And these belief systems _are_ religions. So, it is in fact, more a question still of _religion_ as defined by Merriam Webster Online

Main Entry: re·li·gion
Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
- re·li·gion·less adjective


I mean, I get where you're coming from. Just as someone with an English and Communication degree, I tend to get a bit hung up on the impression and meanings that words are conveying, rather than the sometimes hard to read intent behind the words.


TY Katja for the reply.

The fact religions believe in spirits doesn't mean it's strictly a religious topic. To say so would be like saying because football players drink Gatorade, Gatorade is a football drink.

I understand your points, and I think a great thread can focus on those points.

However, this question is one of belief, not science.

Do you "believe" Ghosts might possibly exist? If not, I can relate to that.
Chance Abattoir
Future Rockin' Resmod
Join date: 3 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,898
10-18-2005 12:46
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
It sounds like you forgot to sacrifice a microscope before you drove off.

~Ulrika~


You know all those dead microbiologists that started popping up after 9-11? :D
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"The mob requires regular doses of scandal, paranoia and dilemma to alleviate the boredom of a meaningless existence."
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Tin Spectre
Hooked on SLack
Join date: 6 Sep 2005
Posts: 6
10-18-2005 12:49
So Chip, what would you say is the single most important trait that separates the believers from the non-believers?

Personally I find that more interesting.
Memory Harker
Girl Anachronism
Join date: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 393
Erm ...
10-18-2005 12:49
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
You just made the list.

~Ulrika~



What --- *gulp* --- list, Ulrika?

Memory Harker <---- scared of the Neualtenberg lady.
Chance Abattoir
Future Rockin' Resmod
Join date: 3 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,898
10-18-2005 12:50
From: Memory Harker
What --- *gulp* --- list, Ulrika?

Memory Harker <---- scared of the Neualtenberg lady.


It's okay, Memory. I'll protect you with my photoshop ray.
_____________________
"The mob requires regular doses of scandal, paranoia and dilemma to alleviate the boredom of a meaningless existence."
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Maeve Morgan
ZOMG Resmod!
Join date: 2 Apr 2004
Posts: 1,512
10-18-2005 12:50
I can't disbelieve in ghosts because it seems they believe in me. I have had more weird unexplainable things happen than anyone else I know.
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Everything under $100L
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
10-18-2005 12:51
From: Memory Harker
What --- *gulp* --- list, Ulrika?
There's no list. ;) Yes there is and you're on it.

~Ulrika~
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Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Ananda Sandgrain
+0-
Join date: 16 May 2003
Posts: 1,951
10-18-2005 12:56
It's just a difference in experiences, yes. It's not logical to assert there's no such thing as a spirit or that beings can't be separate from their bodies in a world where people experience these things either. We're both arguing from a basis of cultural influence. In your case it's one that asserts that such things don't fit with the general materialist theory of existence so they must have another explanation.

It would be nice if I had some specifics to test and "prove" the reality of my experiences. So far, it's been a little too vague or too far back in the past. It doesn't do me a lot of good to remember random things like being named "Madeleine" and herding geese in "Vichy" or whatever.

I'd also love to have some test of out-of-body. I can't just do it at will though. Maybe I'll be able to someday and will be able to report some knowledge from a spot I'd not been to physically.

Anecdotal evidence for both of these things has been collected, just never systematically enough to make a firm case for it. As you say though, one's cultural context currently outweighs any claims made. The converse is you can't claim there is no reason whatsoever to believe in it. It's just your own cultural bias that leads you to ignore it.
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Chance Abattoir
Future Rockin' Resmod
Join date: 3 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,898
10-18-2005 13:01
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
There's no list. ;) Yes there is and you're on it.

~Ulrika~


Back, foul beast!!! Behold, my greatest weapon!
_____________________
"The mob requires regular doses of scandal, paranoia and dilemma to alleviate the boredom of a meaningless existence."
-Insane Ramblings, Anton LaVey
Ananda Sandgrain
+0-
Join date: 16 May 2003
Posts: 1,951
10-18-2005 13:01
From: Memory Harker
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."



Just to be snarky; how would you go about testing this?
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
10-18-2005 13:01
From: Tin Spectre
So Chip, what would you say is the single most important trait that separates the believers from the non-believers?


I don't think it's a trait so much as a tolerance level. Skeptics have high standards of proof that must be met before they're willing to profess belief in something. They tend to be anal retentive about critical thinking and logic. Believers engage in a kind of intellectual relativism where they're willing to accept wildly different standards of proof for things. Consider the following two claims: 1. A colony of pan-dimensional super-beings, who exist in infinite dimensions simulataneously, live in my left shoe, where they convert foot odor into pixie dust while reciting multiplication tables in pig latin. 2. Our consciousness exists seperately from our bodies in something called a "soul" that can exit the body and travel somewhere else upon the death of the body. Those two claims have equal amounts of proof to back them up. Why are people so willing to believe one and not the other? The answer to that question has nothing at all to do with critical thinking, logic, or reasonable standards of proof. It has everything to do with culture.
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