But how much do you pay him? Or is it out of the goodness of Chip's heart that he doesn't force you to stop posting pictures and start posting words? 

Never would I. Taco is much funnier than I am

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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
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10-18-2005 10:43
But how much do you pay him? Or is it out of the goodness of Chip's heart that he doesn't force you to stop posting pictures and start posting words? ![]() Never would I. Taco is much funnier than I am ![]() _____________________
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Taco Rubio
also quite creepy
![]() Join date: 15 Feb 2004
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10-18-2005 10:46
Thanks Chip! Now let's stay on topic.
you're all a bunch of souless banshees i think is the point being made, i can't be bothered to actually read all this. |
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
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10-18-2005 10:47
Do you have feelings? Do you love? Have you ever hated someone? I can bet you have...and that is where the Soul comes into play. You don't have to be a religious person to think that there is something after this thing we call life... According to evolutionary psychologists, emotions are tools that are used to influence and even direct the behavior of an otherwise autonomous being. For instance, humans have evolved an emotion called "lust" which convinces an autonomous being that instead of choosing to eat, it should instead choose to copulate. Similarly, the emotion of "love" has evolved as a way of convincing autonomous beings to maintain semipermanent relationships which are beneficial to offspring. Finally, I should interject that the belief in supernatural phenomenon is not a function of something existing in the environment that is undiscovered or unknowable, it is instead created in the minds of individuals. That is, one imagines a soul because they lack the education, faculties, or disposition to critically analyze the nature of the soul (or ghosts or aliens or Gods) and to consider more rational explanations. As evidence, the modern-day decline in religion and superstition is well correlated with education, specifically the teaching of the scientific method. ~Ulrika~ _____________________
Chik-chik-chika-ahh
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Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
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10-18-2005 10:51
Right. And it's just a coincidence that there's no convincing evidence that anything supernatural exists. I think factual reality (known and unknown) is plenty fascinating all on its own without having to embellish it with mythology. Edit: Is the moon any less beautiful for not being made out of cheese? Hi Chip, There are many things we know exist today that couldn't be proven to exist in the past. As time goes on we learn more and build new tools with which man continues to advance knowledge. At one time men would kill you for suggesting the Earth isn't the center of the universe, or that the Earth isn't flat. They insisted if it can't be proven, it must be false. They considered themselves highly educated. Yet they refused to consider what they couldn't see or prove to their physical senses. |
Katja Marlowe
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10-18-2005 10:59
Thanks Chip! Now let's stay on topic. you're all a bunch of souless banshees i think is the point being made, i can't be bothered to actually read all this. Grr. No picture? |
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
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10-18-2005 11:03
At one time men would kill you for suggesting the Earth isn't the center of the universe, or that the Earth isn't flat. They insisted if it can't be proven, it must be false. They considered themselves highly educated. Yet they refused to consider what they couldn't see or prove to their physical senses. I ask you, who are "they" in each sentence? Given that you say "they" are highly educated, you must have a small group in mind, unless you're fabricating generalizations. ~Ulrika~ _____________________
Chik-chik-chika-ahh
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Creami Cannoli
Please don't eat me....
Join date: 17 Jul 2005
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10-18-2005 11:04
The concept of a "soul" is a fantasy. That is, one imagines a soul because they lack the education, faculties, or disposition to critically analyze the nature of the soul (or ghosts or aliens or Gods) and to consider more rational explanations. As evidence, the modern-day decline in religion and superstition is well correlated with education, specifically the teaching of the scientific method. ~Ulrika~ So I am uneducated, as are billions of other people in the world because you don't believe in a soul? That is the stupiest comment I have ever heard. You personally don't believe in something so it makes the other people stupid because they do? I know a few so-called very educated people with degrees in science fields that believe in souls, God, and after-life. I also know a few that agree with you. To just make a blanket stament like that is wrong. I don't go around telling people they are stupid for whatever beliefs they have that don't agree with what I believe. I don't agree with other people's beliefs, but I won't ever call them uneducated. Weird stuff that you cannot explain DOES happen and DOES exist whether you want to sit there and say it couldn't possibly happen because there is no "proof". What you consider proof, which I am thinking is something tangible that forces you to see it, differs with another person. One strange experience in someone's life can make them believe it does happen. Even if it never happens to them again. Are they uneducated because of the belief? No, they believe. Because something happened to them or someone close to them. It's not some figment of the imagination, nor a chemical imbalance, or ignorance because they chose to go to church. Personally, I think it sad to sit there on a high horse and consider yourself superior because you don't have the time to waste with things that you can't see, or that there is no proof of. |
Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
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10-18-2005 11:10
There are many things we know exist today that couldn't be proven to exist in the past. As time goes on we learn more and build new tools with which man continues to advance knowledge. All of which is the result of science. None of which has turned out to have a supernatural explanation. At one time men would kill you for suggesting the Earth isn't the center of the universe, or that the Earth isn't flat. They insisted if it can't be proven, it must be false. They considered themselves highly educated. Yet they refused to consider what they couldn't see or prove to their physical senses. Yep, and almost exclusively caused by religion. If it deviated from biblical accounts then it was blasphemous and wrong. Galileo wasn't pardoned by the Catholic church for the blasphemy of correctly identifying the sun as the center of the solar system until 1992! He was lucky compared to Giordano Bruno who was burned at the stake in 1600 for having a naturalstic view of the universe. Openness to supernatural explanations of the universe would seemingly lead to greater knowledge and understanding, but history proves again and again that this is not the case. Belief in the supernatural prevents the truth from being discovered and accepted. _____________________
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Aimee Weber
The one on the right
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10-18-2005 11:22
Belief in the supernatural prevents the truth from being discovered and accepted. This reminds me of the South Park episode where stan rips into psychic John Edwards: Because the big questions in life are tough. Why are we here? Where are we from? Where are we going? But if people believe in asshole, douchey liars like you, we're never going to find the real answers to those questions. You aren't just lying, you're slowing down the progress of all mankind, you douche!!! ![]() _____________________
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Ananda Sandgrain
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Join date: 16 May 2003
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10-18-2005 11:25
Chip, you once chided me for making declarations without any real backup for my beliefs. I'll have to call you on this one. The experience of remembering previous existences and the experience of being outside of one's body are far too common to dismiss.
I've experienced both firsthand. Many of my friends have as well. Most religious traditions document this phenomenon extensively, and many historical and mythical stories mention it offhand, as if it's just something to be expected. Indeed, the contrivance here is coming up with some explanation for how the brain is just deluding itself. The simplest explanation is in fact that people are beings that can exist seperately from the body. As for gods and ghosts... it's just in the realm of the unknown. _____________________
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Chip Midnight
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10-18-2005 11:25
This reminds me of the South Park episode where stan rips into psychic John Edwards: haha. Perfect! My sentiments exactly. I think there would be a lot less confusion in the world if the term "leap of faith" were replaced with the far more accurate term "wild guess." _____________________
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
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10-18-2005 11:28
Indeed, the contrivance here is coming up with some explanation for how the brain is just deluding itself. The simplest explanation is in fact that people are beings that can exist seperately from the body. Do you dream, Ananda? I'm assuming the answer is yes. They can be quite convincing sometimes can't they? Last year I had this amazing dream where I was an astronaut making repairs on a space station. The feeling of weightlessness was entirely convincing. There's absolutely no reason to extrapolate from that experience that I was actually transported from my bed to outer space and back again. _____________________
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Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
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10-18-2005 11:36
All of which is the result of science. None of which has turned out to have a supernatural explanation. Yep, and almost exclusively caused by religion. If it deviated from biblical accounts then it was blasphemous and wrong. Galileo wasn't pardoned by the Catholic church for the blasphemy of correctly identifying the sun as the center of the solar system until 1992! He was lucky compared to Giordano Bruno who was burned at the stake in 1600 for having a naturalstic view of the universe. Openness to supernatural explanations of the universe would seemingly lead to greater knowledge and understanding, but history proves again and again that this is not the case. Belief in the supernatural prevents the truth from being discovered and accepted. While it may be true the church was a factor in the miseducation of these people, it's also true higher education was run mostly by religious groups, so it would be understandable the scientists who believed the Earth was flat were also religious. Science taught the Earth is flat, not the Bible. Either way, my point is outside the realm of religion for the topic of Ghosts. The question, "Are ghosts real?" can be considered outside of religion. http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c034.html |
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
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10-18-2005 11:46
So I am uneducated, as are billions of other people in the world because you don't believe in a soul? ![]() I said, that one imagines a soul because individuals lack the education, faculties, or disposition to critically analyze the nature of the soul (or ghosts or aliens or Gods) and to consider more rational explanations. I absolutely assert that it is this personal lack of education, faculties, or disposition that enable the belief in the supernatural. After all, it is my lack of attractiveness that I am not a model. It is my lack of physical strength that I am not a weight lifter. It is my shyness that prevents me from being an orator. Is it not one's limitations in education, faculties, or disposition that prevents them from critically analyzing the supernatural? Of course it is. ~Ulrika~ _____________________
Chik-chik-chika-ahh
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Creami Cannoli
Please don't eat me....
Join date: 17 Jul 2005
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10-18-2005 11:49
I did not say that. ![]() I said, that one imagines a soul because individuals lack the education, faculties, or disposition to critically analyze the nature of the soul (or ghosts or aliens or Gods) and to consider more rational explanations. I absolutely assert that it is this personal lack of education, faculties, or disposition that enable the belief in the supernatural. ~Ulrika~ Lack of education means...???? |
Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
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10-18-2005 11:50
"The argument from ignorance, also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam or argument by lack of imagination, is the assertion that because something is currently inexplicable because evidence of it has not been scientifically proven to their satisfaction it cannot exist. This assertion is often summed up by the adage "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." In other words, it is mere personal belief, poor logic or close-mindedness, masquerading as certainty."
We are all biased by our beliefs. No one is immune. Not even those who believe in nothing supernatural. |
Katja Marlowe
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10-18-2005 11:52
Creami (because with lack of sleep and laziness and the desire not to repost your entire post and not wanting to go through and pick the part I want to quote due to the above reasons, I will merely address here, I hope everyone kept up with that run in sentence.)
First, let me make clear that I am coming at this as a Christian myself. Whether I happen to go to church on a regular basis or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is I have studied both Christianity and other belief systems. Ulrika has "faith" (I put this in quotations, not to denigrate it, but merely to set it apart for some reason that just got lost in my insomniac brain) in rationalism. Much as you and I, Creami, have "faith" in the fact that God, as described by the Judaism religion in what we now refer to as the Old Testament, gave His son, Jesus Christ to die upon the cross and forgive us all our sins. We further believe that anyone that does not believe that Christ died for us, and therefore all our sins are forgiven, are going to hell. How is this different than Ulrika, coming from her "faith" in rationalism, calling those that do not ascribe to the logic of her beliefs, stupid? As Christians, we are in actuality telling people that if they do not believe in Christ and the Way etc etc, that they are going to go somewhere and burn for eternity. IMNSHO this is actually far worse than Ulrika calling me stupid. I see it as actually less insulting than me turning around and saying to Ulrika, well whatever, you're going to be pitted and roasted alive, smelling your skin burn into a crisp over and over and over for millenia. (btw, Ulrika and others, in my mind this point of my faith is up for debate, so please don't think I am trying to ascribe you to what I think will happen to those that are not "Christian" or "faithful" upon their deaths, ty ![]() The basic fallacy that a lot of Christians commit is misinterpreting and misunderstanding Matthew 28, also known as the Great Commission, also paraphrased as, go and make disciples of all nations. They believe that it is their job, given unto them by Jesus Christ almighty to browbeat non believers into belief. However, if you read further and study Paul's letters in the New Testament (we'll ignore for the moment his very um, controversial and iffy stances on the role of women in the church, k? ty ![]() So, as I ramble on here, creating a long post that is probably being skimmed or ignored by other insomniacs reading the forums. I believe that the way to fulfill the Great Commission does not require _active_ participation on a Christian's part. (by active I mean, knocking on doors, yelling at people that do not believe the same etc etc), but rather a more _substantial_ (and yes, I do mean substantial) participation on the parts of Christians. Specifically, how this is defined for me, is showing a respect and curiousity towards others different paths. This usually allows for a more mutually respectable discourse. It also teaches me different things that the Bible and supporting texts do not teach me. I believe that respect for others beliefs and curiousity are far more effective ways to handle the Great Commission than becoming defensive or warrior like when people are harsh about Christianity. Does this mean that I believe by doing this that people are going to fall at my feet and suddenly declare the Lord their Savior and Jesus Christ taking their sin away, alleluia amen forever and ever? Nope. I believe that due to predestination and um some other words that I normally can access in my brain, that it is through nothing I do or say that the person will or will not convert. All I can do is live my life the best I can and strive to learn from others of any "faith". (and btw, the other reason this seems so long is because it is my encapsulated and full reply to all other religion threads brewing or having brewed on forums in the past few days) |
Katja Marlowe
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10-18-2005 11:54
While it may be true the church was a factor in the miseducation of these people, it's also true higher education was run mostly by religious groups, so it would be understandable the scientists who believed the Earth was flat were also religious. Science taught the Earth is flat, not the Bible. Either way, my point is outside the realm of religion for the topic of Ghosts. The question, "Are ghosts real?" can be considered outside of religion. http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c034.html Actually Kevn, part of the reason for the belief that the Earth was the center of the Solar System was that God created the Earth, then He created man as the superior being/creature upon the Earth, so "logically", the Sun, as the fiery ball without Man on it, would HAVE to circle the planet that had the superior being Man on it. It's historically documented in a bunch of different places. Investigate it. |
Creami Cannoli
Please don't eat me....
Join date: 17 Jul 2005
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10-18-2005 11:56
Katja
The only problem I had with the post was that they said people that believe in souls were uneducated. I don't really care what other belief systems people have. There are more people out there than just Christians that believe in souls. It just irritated me that someone would sit there and say that believing you have a soul means that you have a lack of education, so that's the only reason you believe in souls. I stated I had Christian beliefs to show why I believe it wasn't a ghost per se. |
Ananda Sandgrain
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10-18-2005 12:01
Do you dream, Ananda? I'm assuming the answer is yes. They can be quite convincing sometimes can't they? Last year I had this amazing dream where I was an astronaut making repairs on a space station. The feeling of weightlessness was entirely convincing. There's absolutely no reason to extrapolate from that experience that I was actually transported from my bed to outer space and back again. Neither of these things happened while I was asleep, or under the influence of any substances, for that matter. I'm sure you can come up with plenty of rationale for why this is impossible, or whatever. Natural sciences don't concern themselves with such things because they address the physical universe. I'm just saying they happened, I experienced them in an awake and alert state, that's all. To continue to insist that nothing of the sort exists (which was my opinion previously) would just be sticking my head in the sand. After remembering enough of the mundane, stupid, and degrading things that went on in previous lives, I did realize why people would want to forget this stuff. It's embarrassing, sometimes traumatic, and ultimately not all that relevant to the here and now. _____________________
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
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10-18-2005 12:08
Neither of these things happened while I was asleep, or under the influence of any substances, for that matter. I'm sure you can come up with plenty of rationale for why this is impossible, or whatever. Natural sciences don't concern themselves with such things because they address the physical universe. I'm just saying they happened, I experienced them in an awake and alert state, that's all. To continue to insist that nothing of the sort exists (which was my opinion previously) would just be sticking my head in the sand. Natural science does not address these things, but neuro-science most certainly does. I don't in any way argue that these things didn't happen to you. I'm sure they did. I'm saying that there's no evidentiary justification to leap to the conclusion that they were supernatural in origin. It's a huge leap based on cultural notions that likely have nothing whatsoever to do with what actually occurred. After remembering enough of the mundane, stupid, and degrading things that went on in previous lives, I did realize why people would want to forget this stuff. It's embarrassing, sometimes traumatic, and ultimately not all that relevant to the here and now. It also has a 99.999999999% likelihood that it never happened at all. Leaping to the most unlikely supernatural explanation simply isn't rational. It is, in fact, highly irrational. _____________________
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Kevn Klein
God is Love!
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10-18-2005 12:13
Actually Kevn, part of the reason for the belief that the Earth was the center of the Solar System was that God created the Earth, then He created man as the superior being/creature upon the Earth, so "logically", the Sun, as the fiery ball without Man on it, would HAVE to circle the planet that had the superior being Man on it. It's historically documented in a bunch of different places. Investigate it. I'm not interested in what the church taught in this thread. I really was hoping we could talk about supernatural beings rather than religion(man's understanding of God). The question regarding ghosts is not a question of religion, as can be demonstrated by the fact some who don't believe in God do believe in ghosts/spirits/angels/demons or whatever you want to call these beings without a physical body. |
Katja Marlowe
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10-18-2005 12:13
Katja The only problem I had with the post was that they said people that believe in souls were uneducated. I don't really care what other belief systems people have. There are more people out there than just Christians that believe in souls. It just irritated me that someone would sit there and say that believing you have a soul means that you have a lack of education, so that's the only reason you believe in souls. I stated I had Christian beliefs to show why I believe it wasn't a ghost per se. Creami, What I was reacting to, was here you say: At the risk of being ridiculed and flamed and labeled, No I do not believe in ghosts. I do however, believe in demons. Yes, I am a Christian in my beliefs. No, I do not go to church. I have had my own experiences that have scared the living hell out of me. Later, Ulrika responds to the thread overall, not merely your post stating you are Christian, about what she thinks of people with belief systems with the supernatural as part of them. She uses the word uneducated (and Ulrika, my interpretation of your meaning that follows, please correct if I'm wrong, thanks ![]() So I am uneducated, as are billions of other people in the world because you don't believe in a soul? That is the stupiest comment I have ever heard. You personally don't believe in something so it makes the other people stupid because they do? I know a few so-called very educated people with degrees in science fields that believe in souls, God, and after-life. I also know a few that agree with you. To just make a blanket stament like that is wrong. I don't go around telling people they are stupid for whatever beliefs they have that don't agree with what I believe. I don't agree with other people's beliefs, but I won't ever call them uneducated. Personally, I think it sad to sit there on a high horse and consider yourself superior because you don't have the time to waste with things that you can't see, or that there is no proof of. The line that particularly struck me was "that is the stupidest comment i have ever heard". Basically, you misinterpreted Ulrika's uneducated comment as a direct attack upon your intelligence for being a Christian. Now, again, I can't speak for Ulrika (and trust me, I couldn't even if I tried really really really hard and had Enabran's noodly powers), but I am pretty certain that she was stating her opinion of the millions of people who believe in faith structures that incorporate the supernatural into them. In response, you flame and ridicule and pigeonhole Ulrika and her opinions and beliefs. The same thing that you were fearing would happen to you. This (my brain says of course, but how would you know of course, you don't really know me that well lol) set off my whole "rant" about the Great Commission. So I apologize if it seemed I was coming out of the blue with that. I hope this all makes more sense now. |
Azrael Baphomet
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10-18-2005 12:15
Ghosts are not real. People misinterpreting common occurances as supernatural manifestations in order to prop up what they want to believe... that's very real (and common!). The idea of a detachable soul capable of wandering under its own power is a purely religious concept born out of fear of death. You can't very well believe in an afterlife if you don't have the ability to somehow leave your body and get there, and we know the bodies don't go anywhere since we've been burying and burning them for millenia. There is no afterlife. There is no soul. There are no ghosts. You cannot exist outside of your meatsack. Assertion is not argument. There's good reason to think that consciousness may not be reducible to matter, at least according to philosopher David Chalmers: http://consc.net/chalmers/ and his blog: http://fragments.consc.net/ |
Creami Cannoli
Please don't eat me....
Join date: 17 Jul 2005
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10-18-2005 12:21
"To just make a blanket stament like that is wrong."
That is what I eventually followed the comment I made with, that is what I was calling stupid, not Ulrika. Blankets statements cause a lot of problems and misunderstandings. |